talking to a “finish carpenter” today, who was doing baseboard work for a friend… In conversation, he tells me, he doesn’t do coping (just straight cuts for inside corners) doesn’t prepaint, (when the work is around carpet) and generally just complained about anything that needed more than just a simple cut and nail. This guy works for a licensed contractor, and he can get away with this?? I wish I could suck at my job that much, and still find employment. 🙂
the whole coping thing was just hilarious… he said he probably didn’t even have a jigsaw with him. HUH??
just had to vent, maybe I expect too much… but for almost $300/day in labor… i would expect the best.
-mike.
Replies
he said he probably didn't even have a jigsaw with him. HUH??
Whats that got to do with whether or not he copes?
The GC obviously is just as bad, he's allowing it!
Down here in the land of "trac-home-glory" I think they do it the same way, just butt cuts jambed into the corner, the caulk will cover that top part that isnt mitered into the adjacent piece!
Doug
because he didn't have a coping saw, or a jigsaw... besides, thats how i've seen the pros do it, and its how i was taught too... if you have a steady hand, the jigsaw is fast, and clean.
Michael
I'm a pro and I've never coped with a jig saw, for that mater I've never seen anybody else use one, and I know a lot of pro's!
We use something a bit quicker, right angle grinder. Works mo-better, but then of course you cant hawk a tool on your(not meant towards you personaly) web site!
Doug
Most carpenters that I know including myself ,cope large profiles with a sabersaw (jigsaw) and small profiles like 1/4 round with a copingsaw. Whatever works for each individual.
mike
Anyone here cope with a table saw? It seems like everyone here uses the Collins coping foot. Just wondering if no one does, and why not.FWIW, I learned with a coping saw.~TBone
I have used a table saw to relieve the back of very large crowns ( 10" and some larger.I would have used a sabersaw if one was available on this particular job.Only short pieces can be done as it is unwieldy on a tablesaw.I have seen a carpenter cope with a sawzall on large crown.I suppose if your used to it , you can do a good job.
mike
Mike
I wasnt raggin on ya for the jig saw thing, I just find it funny because in 25 years of doing trim work and I've never seen anyone use the jigsaw.
I would bet that I can do a cope in 1/3 the time with the right angle grinder over the jigsaw method. Takes me all of 15 seconds to cope a typical 3 1/2 crown, very seldome do I have to do clean up with a file.
Doug
What type of grinding wheel do you use? Hate me today, hate me tomorrow, hate me for all the things I didn't do.
floppy sanding disk(24g or 36g), with a rubber backer, I've read on here that some guys just put two sanding disks back to back, that way they can cut from both directions, I've never done it that way but it makes sense.
Doug
Check with Dewalt and look into their fiber disk backer---stiff and about the same thickness as a disk itself.I had trouble gettin' into the small nooks of a profile till I got one of them.So I throw out the question. Cope all at once or as you go?Me, I don't mind coping crown, but once I am in the groove I would just rather make them all and go on with the room.I set up in a room and make a small map---inventory my stock and make all my copes at once.Mike"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I cut all the straight runs, and while my trusted assistant shoots those in, I do all the coping at once. By the time the help returns for the coped pieces they are ready to go.
All straight runs? Does that mean Lefts and Rights?O.K. Fess up time---I hate left hand copes---Yeah you guessed--I'm right handed.I'll cope around the base of a closet just like a room just to avoid left handed copes and don't even get me started on crown.That said I stand by my all at once method---I've done it both ways and nothin' is better than gettin' on a roll and pullling cope out of the stock and makin' footage.Mike"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I dont do copes all at once, it makes sense, just never thought if it.
I've seen the Real Player showing the cope with the jig, just doesnt seam all that fast to me.
Cant be as accurate either!
Just trying to keep the flame fanned!
Doug
You should give it a try sometime---you may find ,like me,that your copes come out better when you can stay in the mode and your crown will go up faster when you can stay in the hangin' mode without have to stop to cope.Mike"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Mike,I just searched a bit in the Dewalt site, and couldn't find those fiber discs you're talking about.Do you have a link handy?Thanks.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Try DW4942---it's the part number.Your gonna scream now cause I get'em at the Dewalt/Porter-Cable/Delta/Yamaha/Fruit roll-up store in Eden Prarie.I know , I know Why is all the good crap over here? Don't ask me I just find it.I got my spare in the garage--been there 2 years cause the first is still workin' Mike"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Doug,
I use a Bosch Top Handle Jig Saw and 101AO blades. There is a trick to it but I can cope 3 1/2" crown in about 15-20 Seconds. Never needs to be cleaned up and usually fits tight first go round.
I learned with a coping saw and can still do it that way. But, in my opinion the jig saw is much faster and if you pay attention about 1000% cleaner.
I'm doing some crown in the next few weeks in my livingroom. I'll take pictures.
robert
I dont question that the jigsaw can do the job, I just have never seen anybody use one.
I've seen a lot of guys use the right angle grinder and I personaly cant see how you can improve on it. Not saying that anybody should switch because I do it, hell, who am I!
I trimed out a house last summer, 3 1/2 crown, maybe 12-15 seconds, 6" crown, probably 25-30 seconds. Very little to no clean up.
I can still use the cope saw and still do at times, never know when you'll be traped on a deserted island with out electricity! Gotta keep sharp.
I'd really like to watch someone do the jigsaw thing, seams odd to me but probably no more then the grinder to those that havent seen that method.
Doug
Jigsaw works but I was never comfotable with it. A grinder gives me more control.
Coping saw---ya, I still carry one and use it once in a while.
I've also used my table saw----works best with shorter pcs.
Miter cuts, ya, I'll use them for for paint grade work where caulk does its thing...
Depending on the circumstances, whatever works best.
I've been using the coping saw/angle grinder combination for over 20 years now, never got into the collins coping foot though I did pick one up about 5-6 years ago.
Here we don't call anyone a trim carpenter if they don't cope.
Around here we call those kind of trac homes "30 year houses" they will probably last about as long as the payments, if that long.
huh never seen anyone use a grinder seem's odd to me
I usually use a jig and coping saw
guess it's just what ya like
I'll be looking for those pictures. I've been using a coping saw, some rasps, and a utility knife. The copes come out fine, but I'm always up for learning a better way.
A couple of weeks ago, I was helping my SIL put in some baseboard and made his day when I showed him how much easier it was to cope those inside joints instead of trying to miter them with a $10 miter box - lol. They're doing crown in a few weeks and he has his eye on a SCMS. My daughter, however, sounded pretty firm when she said NO WAY!!
Doug, I didn't take the heat.I have heard of using an angle grinder,just haven't done it or seen it done myself.I never timed how long it takes to cope with a sabersaw. I figured if I took the time to time it, I probably would have done one less cope that day.Seriously, my best guess is about 30 seconds for crown up to 6".Then a another 30 seconds to fit it with sandpaper stick. I rarely use a file or rasp, sandpaper seems to be faster and better. I put 80 grit Psa paper on a flat stick,like a paint stick.
mike
Now you went and did it---Every thing was peaceful and serine till you had to break the seal.The old JIgsaw VS. Grinder method---Oh BTW---I can smoke a jig with my 4.5---Mike"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" Mitremike c. 1990" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
When you use that angle grinder for coping, what kind of a wheel do you use?EDIT: SORRY -- SHOULD HAVE READ THE REST OF THE THREAD BEFORE I POSTED THIS. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 5/25/2006 10:24 pm by nikkiwood
24 or 36 grit sanding disk, kinda plyable. I use a rubber backer wheel on mine but others on here mention using two sanding disks, back to back, so that they can cut both ways.
I have never done the two disk thing but I'm going to have to give it a shot, gotta see what the deal is.
I'm should see if I can make my digital camera do a video and post it. I think it can be done, just dont know if I can do it!
Doug
>>"I'm should see if I can make my digital camera do a video and post it. I think it can be done, just dont know if I can do it!
Doug, if you can I for one would very much appreciate it.
I've never even heard of coping with a grinder much less seen somebody do it. Jig saw is king of cope far as I know.
Maybe a regional thing? I'd like to give the grinder a shot but have no clue what the heck you guys are talking about. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I'm gonna play with the camera, I think people say that they can do a video with one but I can barely aim, shot and download!
I'll see what I can do.
I thought this concept was BS when I first heard guys mention it but I haven't used my belt sander to scribe a counter top in 10 years, I can do it in 1/4 of the time with the grinder, and the copes are so much easier.
It does come down to how steady you can hold the grinder but I don't think I have the hands of a surgeon and I do fine.
Doug
I've heard of it before around here, and I tried it a couple weeks ago. It seemed slower to me, but I'm assuming I was doing something wrong. I think that sandpaper was pretty old, actually. I'd like to see it done. Grinder is one of my favorite tools anyway, I'd like to learn a new trick for it.zak
"so it goes"
"trac-home-glory"
You're dead on, dude.
Live the Good Life in the Permian Basin.
"trac-home-glory"
Or as we say around here, "Building Tomorrow's Ghettos Today!"
"Building Tomorrow's Ghettos Today!"
I'm stealing that line!
Doug
Well, my2cents, your finish carp. is a wham bam moonlighting as a finishcarpenter. In the old days a "carpenter" did it all with equal skill but today---Nah. We specialize in today's world. A framer's concept of finish/detail work is very differant from an actual finish carpenter's sense of same.
amen. i thought i was a spaz because i carry a 5mm mechanical pencil in my bags... and i'm a diy'er! for me, its all about the finish. i can't wait to see the finished product from this guy...
i carry a 5mm mechanical pencil..........That'd be about like blackboard chalk, wouldn't it? Pretty thick line...Oh, wait, did you leave off the decimal?
you got me! 0.5 :-)
i carry a .500mm pencil.
Who's got the smallest pencil?!
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited 5/25/2006 1:16 am ET by huddledmass
i carry a .500mm pencil.
Who's got the smallest pencil?!
thats not exactly something i'd be bragging about :>)
View ImageView Image
well you're not Canadian now are you?
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
On topic but different scenario: A week or two ago, someone posted a question about terminating PEX water lines for valves and fixtures. Somebody (can't remember who) stated he didn't secure the ends, just hung them out for attachment of the valves/fixtures.
I don't know if he was a pro or not....wouldn't be considered such in my book.
And a friend of ours, single lady, contracts out a steady flow of remodels and renovations to her house.
Some cold call outfit came through the area offering cabinet upgrades. Her kitchen is a simple el, about 12' to 7'. She had them do new laminated countertops, new cab doors and drawer fronts and a new exhaust fan.
They did the work....looks Ok, but they ran the exhaust vent up to the attic with 6" steel, transitioned to 6" flex, then, at the roof penetration, transitioned down to two inch ABS! Needless to say, some rain a couple weeks later made its way to her range top.
Situation is currently under review by building inspector and a legal rep.
Outfit
Good thing they transitioned down to 2"--just think how much more water would have come down a six inch pipe!
I wish I could suck at my job that much, and still find employment. :-)
Become a professional athlete. I've never heard more excuses for poor performance. "Oohh they team had to play three games this week, they're tired".
They knew what the job entailed when they signed up. I've got a fragmented disc and hung drywall all day today. I think I could handle a couple of games a week.
I dont normaly reply in these types of threads because I actually disagree in PART.
Track housing is probably correct but the real ANSWER is money.
The reason it draws 300 per day for a hand is because its more profitable than custom pianos.
I dont take pride away from you guys , but some of us like to make money.
I dont do what was stated but if the need came I would . I guess its also called a whoring carpenter. I have done jobs I dont even run baseboard. Finish the rock to the floor.
Today I was watching some roofers I hired. They dont gauge . It was not the straightest job but it passed and they were so quick and cheap. I believe they made more money on the job than a set of quality roofers charging a higher price. . The job site? Well it was a 30 yr old rental in a lower section of town.
heres what Im getting at ;
The house will rent for a higher price than it did before when I finish the rest of the cheap work . I could sink 10 more thousand in the house and it wouldnt bring a dime more in revenue. Rentals are a bottom line business. That normally means you work to not spend instead of a lavish account of updating. I could put granite counter tops in and solid oak floors with a mix of tile and really show it off . As soon as you send me the renters that will pay extra for it Ill do it .
Those rentals make considerably more than what a great carpenter makes. But to each his own.
First time home buyers market is tough with marginal profits . Its whats happening in some parts of the country. A painter commented on them and heres what he said of contactors building them; "No one asks how good a job I can do , only how cheap." So a carp might butt that trim to feed a family and in turn the family that bought it could not have a house period if some of the ones here built it . There would be no market , there would be no job or home for them .
Think twice before you criticize someones elses business until you have walked in their shoes.
Tim
this was in a million dollar home, he only worked 3.5hrs, ran out of materials (luckily there was some in the garage) and still charged $400. we're not talking some crappy rental, where we're just trying to cosmetically spruce it up, and even in that case, i don't think its fair to cut corners, just because it will look the same. For example, in my business (computers), what would a client think if i delivered them a dell server case with a crappy homebuilt system inside. Heck, they probably won't know the difference, but in the end, i'm screwing over my customer so i can make an extra buck. Ehhh... No.-mike.
" we're not talking some crappy rental"
Neither was I. Although this rental Im talking about is in a lower side of town it brings high rent with exellent returns. How did that happen? It was the cheapest house in the addition when I bought it on the best lot . A goverment repo sold on the court house steps that no one wanted except me . It was gross . Slime ball house. Soap , clean up , and paint went a long way . It took two days to haul off the junk. I spent 3,000 in materials and chose some modern colors with some frieght damaged carpet that actually had a dark spot in it every 6 feet the size of a pencil eraser for 3.00 per yard . I sewed the yard with grass seed after working it with fertilizer and kept water on it for 2 weeks. When I finished it was the best house in the addition by curb appeal. Its one of the highest profit ratio houses I have to date. It continues over the last 10 years to knock down top rent with a 96 percent occupancy ratio. It has paid for it self and the renters bought it for me . It has repaid the 3,000 back to me. I bought it for 32,000 on the steps of the court house 10 years ago. A house sold two doors down this spring for 76,000 thats less of a house on a smaller lot with no curb appeal. So I can assume the little house has gained 44,000 of clear profit sitting there in my ownership. When I get done next week redoing it again off an insurance claim at no cost to me except labor it will move into a higher rent bracket of an extra 100 per month. The cap rate will be out standing . Am I ripping off my customers charging a high rate when my costs are so low ?
Getting back to this 1 million dollar home .
Ive showed more than my share of homes and probably my share of work completed. Ive always paid attention to what peoples eyes "rest " on. Most of the time their facial expression or thier body language will tell a story. Most of the time you can guess what they are thinking. What ever the subject Im always trying to sell a product or rent it which is basically the same thing .
Houses are sold most of the time in no longer than 20 minutes of show time. 90 percent of the decision is made in 5 minutes according to stats printed. In the five minutes, curb appeal is judged and they are standing in the entry or as far as the kitchen where they pause most every time . In that five minutes the living area has also been judged the first time . An apartment is not any different .
They simply dont pay attention to detail unless its a detailed subject such as circular stairs with a winding stair case which is a different animal than they are used to seeing . Excluding somthing like that closet lights than turn on and off when they open the door may get a favorable smile at a 10 dollar cost. They might on rare occasion open a top cabinet door but never inspect whether its solid wood or particle board carcasses. They almost never look to see if the kitchen has a garbage disposal. Ive never seen a bottom cabinet door opened if the the house is clean. Let a house be dirty and they will look inside the tub and give it a thourough inspection. Otherwise the house will rent or sell with a shower curtain or door closed never opened. Those are examples .
I do know this ;
Base that is 45 degrees fit that shows open joints which are caulked two times by a pro painter with a wet rag will always pass inspection on painted trim. Will it be as fancy as a coped joint ? No it wont , but it will draw money in a shorter period of time since all joints must be caulked anyway. Of course I would rather see coped joints but I would probably pay for 45s if they were caulked properly. If the base had a 1/2inch crack , then no . That would be an eye sore that would stand out like the light in the closet.
Another truth is that although its a million dollar house the same rules can apply. It could be a million dollars of lot and sg footage. It all depends on how you want to fill your grocery bag. You want trim built like a piano then you better get ready to give up somthing other wise the house wont bring the cost which is where the mega builders of mini mansions make their living . They know what they have to do to turn a profit .
Whats interresting is when a homeowner speaks on this type of subject the way you are for example . When it comes time to cut the checks for their own house they are always looking to save money, not spend it . So in reality are they any different ? Would a homeowner pay 1.5 mil for a house that appraised for 1 mil that was built like a piano? Whats important to note is the homeowner is the one that set the standards and the prices. When they pay 1 mil for a standard of work that my be less in your opinion, they sold out . The next home will be worth the same price per foot and the next and the next. As long as they sell and buy, it will keep happening . The old agage of history repeating it self.
On the other hand you are right . As long as you are willing to pay 300 per day and dont want a bid we can build pianos until the money runs out. But its closer to 400 @50 per hour so the guy is working a little too cheap. Would it be worth 50 dollars to ya to have your base coped in a closet? Did you ever attend Walmart in search of 20 dollars of merchandise and thought what the heck , Ill grab a cart , "while Im here". While you were there the cart got full and your bill at check out is now 150.00. Or more.
Tim
Edited 5/26/2006 7:24 am by Mooney
Edited 5/26/2006 7:37 am by Mooney
>>"In the five minutes, curb appeal is judged and they are standing in the entry or as far as the kitchen where they pause most every time .
I'm getting off topic here for a second but you got it 100% from my experience as well.
Curb appeal gets 'em out of the car. Entry sets the stage. Kitchen closes the deal.
Far as cope versus mitre, for stain grade there is no substitute for cope. Most people are, of course, not trained to understand what they are looking at. But any "shadowed" area (like a gap in a joint) looks "dirty" 'cause it's dark and lightless. Same as a crack in a drywall joint. It's a dark line so it catches your eye immediately.
So while I bet nobody says to themselves "wow, look at those gaps in the mitres in the inside corners" they do say to themselves "hmm, somthing's not 100% right here; just not grabbing me, etc."
For paint grade that gets caulked, whole different ballgame. Same rationale. If there's no gap in the corner, it looks clean and there's nobody but us would notice the difference.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I never figgured we were talking about stain grade but since you mentioned it if a trim guy doesnt carry a coping saw , Houston , weve got problems.
Tim
My mom and sister are both realtors for a tract home builder. Last winter mom and dad had new hardwood floors installed in their patio home. I installed the shoe mold. Mom was amazed at the difference that coped corners and returned ends made in the final products look.
I told her that I didn't even have 30 more minutes worth of work in it and it made a huge difference. She agreed. After that she started noticing the slam and caulk approach that their trim guys take to the houses they trim. Big difference.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
My daughter worked for me during high school . She was the cut girl on the miter saw but she didnt get the hang of coping . She said her hands werent strong enough. I wont ever know if that was a cop out or not but since she was a girl I let her slide. She helped me install some laminate floors also.
Shes married now and out of college the last few years. Shes bought two houses. Like your mother shes learned to be quite critical of things like that. She has displayed her sentiment to the last builder she bought a tract house from and hes learned her number not to answer when she calls so she visits his job sites where she has his foreman on speed dial. I would say those methods didnt work so well with her as she visits with people looking at other new houses in the addtion. Shes been a thorn in his saddle. No doubt she will be a "custom " customer in the future . One of my goals in life is to retire before that happens .
Tim
IMO you just nailed it. Most people will never know what a good joint looks like if the standards set by wham-bams passes as OK or good enough. What its come down to is a race to the bottom----IMO.
However, if the job is quoted for "PAINT GRADE", mitered corners is generally OK. Caulk does its thing and paint hides everything. These homes will never have a future homeowner say" hay-lets strip the woodwork down". More than likely it will be painted over many times or it will be ripped out to fit the tastes of that future owner.
Yup. When I bought this house I didn't even look at the trim until way after I signed the papers. All i was worried about was the stucture and leaks.
By the way it's all quality work. Built in the late sixties and not one joint has opened or given me any problems. Built with standards you could say. All stained.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
Edited 5/26/2006 3:44 pm ET by Gunner
"IMO you just nailed it. Most people will never know what a good joint looks like if the standards set by wham-bams passes as OK or good enough. What its come down to is a race to the bottom----IMO."
First I want to say I enjoyed your post.
When a wham bam gets to be a pro though he learns to caulk his own work and he says hes just helping the painters or they dont do it to suit him. hahaha. At the end of the day all of his trim is caulked and avoids evening inspections going bad.
"These homes will never have a future homeowner say" hay-lets strip the woodwork down".
That was funny.
Tim
Similar story to the original post... I did contract work for a high end apartment community which were being converted into condos... I showed up with all of my tools ( miter saw, coping saw, etc ) to install some tall ( 5.5" baseboard )... They looked at me funny when I began to cope the corners. They INSISTED that 45 the corners and let caulk to the rest. They also INSISTED that I not bring the miter saw any longer and use a circular saw to 45 the corners... Yes, I said a circular saw to 45 the corners of tall base. They were paying my paycheck and I might add that it was a nice paycheck so I did it their way. "They" in this case was the general contractor of the job. The funny thing is that not a single new homeowner noticed a single corner of the trim job. Never had a call back nor did they say anything during the buyer final walk through. I am not proud of it but that is what they wanted done on their job. I told my old trim crew about it and they almost had a heart attack.
On another note... I have been trimming for about 12 years and never used anything other than a coping saw. I have never even heard of using a grinder before reading this post... Might have to give it a shot...
Measure once > cut once > get board stretcher....