I hired a guy a few months ago, and for the most part he is great, but he still makes stupid lttlle mistakes almost everyday. He’s only been in carpentry for about 4 years, and he learns from his mistakes, so I cut him a lot of slack and just try to encourage him to understand what he did wrong so he won’t do it again. He also beats himself up a lot over little stuff, so I don’t feel the need to rub it in.
For me, there was a time when things just started to ‘click’. I stopped making the stupid daily mistakes(for the most part), and my aptitude and understanding fell in line. It was kind of an awakening, as I could see potential problems before they happened and could instantly make a correction in my process so it would turn out the way I wanted. This carried over for me in all aspects of carpentry, as they are all basically the same(measure, cut, install), and made my days at work and life in general much more enjoyable.
I would imagine that this happens to everyone who does something long enough.
When did it happen for you? Have any ideas on how to coax it out of someone else?
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when you stop trying to perfect, grasshopper, you may leave now.
Perhaps some stepping back and looking (on your part) at/thinking about his mistakes might help- is there a pattern? A 'concept' that sems to show up alot? If so, then thinkabout how he learns and teach him. (There are different learning styles)
>>as I could see potential problems before they happened
I think with any "new" job there is a learning period where you have to think about everything you're doing, which slows you down and leaves limited "room" to think ahead.
In doing home inspections, I found it took about 500 to really "click in" - repetition can allow one to develop "body knowledge" and space to expand your thoughts a bit, allowing you to do more thinking ahead.
And, of course, we learn from our mistakes (which is why I'm so "smart" <G>)
Maybe some mentoring/teaching when the rush isn't on: work on some jobs side by side, talk about what you're doing, why your doing it,and how what you are doing at any one moment helpsyou look ahead.
And then some "after action" chatter.
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'Maybe some mentoring/teaching when the rush isn't on: work on some jobs side by side, talk about what you're doing, why your doing it,and how what you are doing at any one moment helps you look ahead.And then some "after action" chatter.'We work together daily, and I spend a ton of time talking about process since I'm a big picture thinker. His experience mostly lies with punch work and loose ends, so that's an area where I can let him run(since I'd rather be pursuing the next job anyway).He has a lot of complementary strengths, but since he's used to the little things, he tends to screw up on things I consider to be very simple, although they may be early in framing, etc, and he doesn't see the consequences piling up.He's admittedly bad at seeing the big picture, so I'm not sure how to encourage that more than I am already.Experience is surely a better teacher than I am.
"We work together daily, and I spend a ton of time talking about process "You might be talking too much. Start breaking those lectures up into smaller bits. I was one of those kinda guys. I know too much about processes and techniques and can get carried away yapping about them. At some point in my career, I recognized my propensity to yap as a negative trait and learned to keep a lid on it. If I was talking with a heady intellectual type, I could open the floodgates (about carpentry processes) and we'd have a good conversation. If I was talking with a young stud who was really thinking about his girlfriends thighs, I was wasting my time if I spent any more than ten seconds on a demonstration about one particular skill. So, I learned to limit my teachings to one item per day. For a newbie, that might mean grabbing ten studs and showing him exactly how to rat-tat-tat spread them in machine gun style. For a four year journeyman, I might spend five minutes discussing the various ways of determining the cuts on an unequal pitched jack and how they relate to the framing square and ply cuts. One lesson per day. Anymore and you are putting too much pressure on a lot of people out there in the trades. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I have no idea. I haven't had any formal experience as a carpenter, and my current job (working for a builder) is highlighting my weaknesses real good. My superiors keep telling me that practice makes perfect, and they're happy with my attitude and motivation. . . doesn't mean I'm necessarily happy with myself. I tend to be hard on myself; I'm like your dude.
I've found some irritating things clearing up all on their own, which is good.
I'm hoping it'll really click, for me. I really enjoy every aspect of carpentry I come across, and I cannot tolerate being slow or stupid at something I like. But this being my first experience working with professional carpenters, well, I've got a lot to learn.
The answer to that may not have anything to do with carpentry of construction, but in how his thought processes works. Some people can only deal with the afterwards view of things and learn each time. So if he is doing th esame thing such as shingling houses or painting with a roller or framing with a nail gun, he can learn the right steps to do it the right way and just keep repeating the process for the next fifty years.
But remodeling takes more creative thinking and advance planning ahead of the curve. There are ten times as many problems to solve in remo work as in straight framing new work - more abstract thinking.
I was raised by an alcoholic father who beat the #### out me me too manytiomes for something I "should have thought of that" in his mind. So I learned to think ahead of the curve. To anticipate what might set him off and have things ready to near perfection.
That creates internal psych stresses I can do without, but on jobs it leads to well organized setups that flow well. I also learned to roll with the punches, so I look for the next opeenning when things don't go as planned.
Like playing pool, you learn to think ahead so the Q-ball is set in place for the next shot as well as keeping it from following this one into the hole. Some guys are wired different and just can't think more than a step or two ahead of what they are doing. They'll never make lead carpenters, but they can be great at the regular work.
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I explain each task simply and completely, the way I would like to have learned it, watching the other person's eyes for understanding. Then I ask if what I said makes sense. If I get a strong affirmation, I'll say, "OK. Go to it, and if you run into any questions, let me know."
Then I leave it alone and go back to my own work. No glancing over, no hovering, no follow ups of any kind. I've put the responsibility where it belongs, making it clear that I'm available for consultation.
I want to enjoy my own work and I want to produce. I can't do either if I'm distracted. Neither can anyone else.
I think having you for his boss is a great step for him. I can tell that you care and that's so important that I can't even emphasize that enough. All I ever had in the early daze were bosses that just tried to humiliate me...maybe in a strange way that's what made me stronger....putting up with it and swearing to myself I'd become more than they were. That one day I'd help new-bees become all that they could be. Sort of what I never had. It's funny how it all turns isn't it? Where there's a front/there's a back~
Well...you seem to be this kids role model so keep up the good work. Seems to me that if he cares only half as much as you claim then he'll get there.
And you phrased it right..."clicks in". It just will as long as you all have the right tude'. There's far and few good uns like this kid sounds to be so let him know when he does well and be kind yet firm when he's messing up. Let him know you care.
Everyone has a different time machine in the learning curve dept.
Some people seem like geniuses in some ways and total dolts in others.
Look at John Edwards...LOL. whooopsss...sorry...lol.
Some people can memorize with a photographic memory and others like me have a memory like a sieve but can visualize into the present and into the future real well. different tasks take different gifts and take different amounts of work so there's no tellin' "how long" things will take.
It's all about what he IS today...ya know what I mean?
Also how much yer payin' him....lol
Be well
andy
shal ॐ
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
"Some people seem like geniuses in some ways and total dolts in others."Yes. . . This thread is really striking a chord with me, today. My boss told me that he expected today's task to be challenging, and 'kind of a test, too.' It didn't go as well as I'd hoped.
Well hey, don't leave us hangin'! ;o)
"Yes. . . This thread is really striking a chord with me, today. My boss told me that he expected today's task to be challenging, and 'kind of a test, too.'
It didn't go as well as I'd hoped."
-------------------------------------------
Been there dude.... seems like you've got a "I'll get it right next time attitude." and often times that's the most important thing.
Like rez said... don't keep us haning though.
-D
Interesting question. This past winter I worked for someone else for awhile and began to appreciate what I did know by getting some different feedback. I also learned new things. But I realized that I really did have more basic knowledge down than I was giving myself credit for. I realized that I was comfortable with working efficiently, trouble shooting and working based on a set of directions.
Now I'm back to working for myself but now I am more confident working on my own than I was before, doing more on my own and leaning less on my partner. I don't consider myself a journeyman level yet, but I now realize that I really can say I've been doing this for five years and show that I have. That feels good.
Give your guy some tasks that you can allow some risk on, allow him a chance to cruise on his own a bit and see how he picks up on it. Don't be there if he has the temptation to lean on you a bit, like a bird kicked out of its nest. That's the way it was for me. Once I was kicked out of the comfort zone of working for my partner and I had to fend for myself a bit more and prove myself, I learned to fly a little more.
That's my suggestion.
I know that the guy I worked for last winter was a screamer and a berater. That stunted my growth. I spent more time fearing his outbursts than focusing on my job to the point where the fear of the stupid mistake would cause the stupid mistake. Even though I gained some confidence in my overall progress by seeing it put to work in some ways, I also got tired of the petty bickering, hissing under the breath, yelling and berating. I'm not a damn child. I picked up some long term contracts and decided it was time to jump back in the race, the slow season ended for me and I was none to glad to get out.
I could see my self confidence slipping, I had to get out. So, by all means, don't treat someone like a child, or pretty you'll have just that; a child who is dependent, needy and fearful. Screw that.
I most certainly had definite light bulb moment. It was in my early second year. My moment came at a bar table and we were having a cold one after work. Like normal, we were talking shop and the topic was pre-building soffitt systems. These typically were 12" wide and 40' long and went the entire length of the house.
Somewhere in that conversation the boss made me realize that if I could figure a way out on how to build that rack straight, and get it attached tightly to the wall which was lying flat, then everything would stand up and be as straight as my overhang rack.
From that lightbulb moment, I finally realized how important parallel was from all parts to all parts.
I was the kind of guy that needed to know the why. I'm not good at hearing instructions but I am keen on hearing objectives.
How does your guy learn best? By sight? By hearing? By feel? By figuring it out himself?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
remodelman
I've been on my own for 23 years and in the trade 4 years before that.
I was college kid and my summer jobs were with trucks and gravel. My dad always wanted me to make money with my head and not my hands.
On my 1st carpentry job at age 22 I was pathetic. I didn't understand anything and I couldn't drive a nail. My boss was just 8 years older and he could build as easy as walking. But he wasn't real good at teaching. He just thought all people should know how to frame walls and use a square. Best thing he did though was, when I did something wrong he would just say "tear it out and redo it" and then he would walk away. No angry words. Later he became acholic and abusive.
I always thought that if I learned the 99 rules of carpentry that I would be a carpenter. I came to realize that it is more a way of thinking. I am mostly self taught. I am mostly in remodeling so whereever there is a rule there is an exception.
Needless to say I was slow to learn. People think I am good but I know that I don't have a good mind for it.
Both my sons work for me. They are 22 and 25. They were on the roof and helping me on jobs since they were 12. But they avoided learning the trade.
For them the learning curve is long and slow. Give them a fan kit, a lock set or a plumbing situation (something where the parts are already there and they just have to put it together) and they are great. Better than me.
But tell them to build something that is only a concept and they struggle.
Part of our problem is we may do a certain job. Tape drywall or hang doors. Then we won't do that again for 6 months or a year.
They are learning but it is always suprising what they can do and what they can't. Part of the problem is I always do the toughest part of any job. I need to back off and give them the go ahead and let them slog their way thru it.
Give positive feedback, mistakes happen just accept that, teach and give him the big picture and let him do the driving more often.
Rich
"Give them a fan kit, a lock set or a plumbing situation (something where the parts are already there and they just have to put it together) and they are great. Better than me.But tell them to build something that is only a concept and they struggle."Very interesting incite. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Jim
Very interesting incite.
I am just hoping they don't insight rebellion. LOL
We work mostly with existing structures, repairing rotten fascia or replacing a bathroom. We rarely get the chance to frame up a structure.
This winter we built some cabinets and a piece of furniture. All new territory for them.
Sometimes I need to step back and teach instead of doing production in order to meet the budget.
Rich
NO , but when it clicks for me on a daily basis and all day long I will let you know.
whe you try to be perfect you will make mistake and see every mistake and fume over the and make more. when you realize mistake will happen, they just happen. You will calm down and the mistake disappear. so he need to quit trying so hard and just build
I think that is a big part of it.