hello i am doing my first new mcmansion trimout(6000 sq ft) and wondered how common it is to have all the windows and doors complketly out of square/plumb not aligned with the unit next to it ect. the first day i felt like i knew nothing and spent more time screwing off sheetrock around rough openings than i did hanging trim. any ways i was just interested in feed back from others
thank you noah
Replies
Ah come on, can't you just make it work? ; ^ )
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
That is common practice.
Tell your GC to stop being such a cheesedick and start hiring a decent framing crew at decent price. He probably got exactly what he paid for and now you get to 'reap the benefits'.
Exchef, get your shims out and shim all the doors and windows square. It's your job to do that isn't it? I've moved windows 1/4" or more with shims after drywall. Framers don't bother to shim the window jambs because the studs dry and shrink and the shims just fall out anyways.
Stop your whining. If you want to trim perfect roughs, then start a rough crew and do all the finish behind them. Be prepared to eat beans, without the frankfurters!
Have fun!
blue
Yeah wacky openings is part and parcel with the trade. Reshimming is always a good idea, don't try and trim an opening too bad 'cause the fours you end up there pales to the half hour of adjustments. Not all of this always is the framers' fault, framing shrinks, houses settle, someone's level may be off more than yours. There is a limit though. I often find myself hammer chiseling rock at opening corners, rescrewing to get rock tight, blah blah. If it's too bad, up your price on the next bid if you follow the same crew again, or backcharge if you can. If you're T&M then tell the GC to quit bitching and make sure the framings' tighter.
maybe his saw got knocked around in the back of the truck and is outta 'whaak' 2 degress....
How quick we assume....
But the little detent notches are always right!
'assume'
to make an #### of U
and meI like beenie-weenies:-)
If it were easy....a caveman could do it.
Round here the trimmers, usually the same guys as the framers, slap the moldings on. If it's 15 degrees out of plumb and looks weird with multiple windows no worries. Most folks who buy McMansions don't know any better. And half those who do are buying the house to flip anyway so they don't care.
Most trim, from what I have seen, is butt cut or mitered just accurately enough keep the gaps under a quarter inch. I honestly can't say I have seen any new homes with any coped joints lately. I, a few years ago, mentioned this to a guy nailing up trim, don't know if I would accuse him of being a trim carpenter, and he looked at me like I was talking Swahili. I don't think he could cape a joint if you held a gun to his head. The gaps are roughly caulked and the whole goobered mess is painted white. Makes me laugh and shake my head when I see that and know what these houses are selling for.
Of course just like the jails are full of innocent men all the builders, in the words of one of their own's sales pamphlet, builds 'top quality houses using only the finest materials and old-world craftsmanship'. The line is always good for a laugh for anyone who knows this particular character. Even his own family calls him a 'hack'. Customers usually only catch on after they are committed. A fact essential to his business plan.
I guess it is a question of what the local standards are. Evidently, from what I'm reading in this thread, in some areas the trim man is expected to plumb up the windows before trimming. A lot around here get roughly plumbed during dry-in. And that's about as good as it gets. What's a few degrees either way between friends.
Evidently, from what I'm reading in this thread, in some areas the trim man is expected to plumb up the windows before trimming.
I don't know what others do, I only speak for myself.
I was taught that rough carpenters are responsible for all the exterior trim, including the millwork associated with the windows. When I set a window, I'm only making sure the exterior trim is plumb, level and square. There really isn't any point to working the interior jamb because the studs are going to shrink a considerable amount. Even if I shim them, the shims will be useless by the time the trimmer gets to them.
IF I was the trimmer, I would fully expect to shim and fasten all the jambs, unless of course the framer has already spiked them in.
Windows used to be made onsite by the carpenter, who did both rough and finish. Now, the windows are made in a factory and dropped in, but when you really analyze it, there are two areas of responsibility, inside and out. In my experience, the guys on the inside have often failed to take care of their inside business and like to blame the outside carpenter for their failure to tune up the jambs. I don't mind when a trimmer crys about our window sets. I'm always willing to take them outside and prove to them that we've properly done our duty.
Plumb, level, square and straight....on the outside!
blue
i've never seen a window that was plumb and square outside that wasn't the same inside too. If this guy is seeing them out of "whaak" it is because that's the way they were installed. Somebody stoof back five feet and threw tthem in.If this is the kind oif framer the GC is happy with, the OP has to decide if he wants to also do hack work, upcharge for fixing what went before, or find decent work.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i've never seen a window that was plumb and square outside that wasn't the same inside too.
I guess you've never worked with our 'builder" grade windows!
I've seen it many, many, many times. In fact, one of the mistakes that I don't let the grasshoppers do it to set the window plumb, level and square from the inside. If we were to do that, often the brickmold will be out of whack. It will come back to haunt us.
The worst offending windows are tall and narrow double hungs. Fixed windows are the best, followed by casements. Sliders are dicey too.
blue
Wow, that's Whaaky
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I always try to line them up p-l-sq on the inside, since that's the part you see up close, and outside the chips fall where they may. Of course on remodel work, you're often dealing with existing conditions, ie different header heights, different sill heights, etc.I'm doing a 90 yr. old remodel right now with the old site-built windows, and the owner/builder is rebuilding and re-using them. Every single one is a slightly different size, slightly different hinge placement, etc. I'm talking an eight to quarter inch difference. Definitely not mass-production stuff!
Edited 9/10/2005 2:59 am ET by Huck
Huck, the problem with only working on the inside, is that you might find yourself in a bind outside.
I've seen it all. On one Anderson job, the builder complained to me that the window wasl plumb, level and square. After carefully checking, I had to agree that the window brick molds were out of plumb. Knowing that we set it level, squared the top and nailed all the sides straight, I was puzzled. I measured the parallels. They were off by 3/8".
I once got a callback on a builder model, cheap double hung double unit. It couldn't be fixed. No matter what we did, we couldn't get it P, L, or SQ. No one believed us, till the superintendent himself took the trim off (again) and measured it. It wasn't close. They eventually replaced the entire unit.
My job is the exterior trim. That to me is the brick mold. The trimmer's job is the interior jambs. If I do my job right, the interior jambs will easily be shimmed into their proper final resting place. If the trimmer neglects his job, I don't care...my exterior trim will still be good!
blue
I just can't cope with trim that ain't coped!!!! LOL
Exchef,
Assuming it isn't your saw, this might fall under the heading of "Pick your customers wisely". This might not be the guy you want to work for.
Who is this guy using as a framer? Does he pay him well? Does some guy show up once a day and try to give hand signals to the non-english speaking crew he has all the work subbed out to? DO they use a sheething crew that throws sheets up and the windows in all at one time ( Don't laugh I watched a sheething crew put up 820 sheets and all the windows in 7 hours once. Not well, but it was done)?
Some guys get their feathers ruffled but having been a framer and having had my own crew, it aint easy and you get blamed for the bulk of the problems deserved or not. The Mason and the Framer set the tome for the rest of the house and yet they are the two trades every one wants to save on.
If the framer isn't a dirt bag, you got two choices. Chalk it up to experience, or learn a pocket full of tricks to deal with it quickly. MAybe the builder is just looking for a guy to just " Cover it up". If that aint you, time to move on.
"The mason and the framer set the tone for the rest of the house and yet they are the two trades everyone wants to save on."
Truer words were never spoken! Good mason makes the framer's job easier, good framing makes all subsequent trades ( or operations ) jobs easier. All things being equal, if a job is "easier" the end result will be better.
Now if I could just convince the local HfH chapter they might move along a little better..........
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.