When to abandon oil and go electric heat
Hi; I have a 900 sq/ft year round cottage that is currently heated with an oil forced air furnace.
With heating oil now at 99.9c/liter (thats $4.00 gallon) it is getting pretty crazy expensive to heat the place.
We already turn the heat down as far as it will go (45f) when we leave and have insulated the heck out of it (R60 ceilings, R20 walls, triple pane windows, weatherstrip etc) so I don’t think there is much more we can do in that respect so it appears we may have to consider a change of heat supply.
The current furnace is about 12 years old (Lennox 82% efficient according to the sticker).
Electricity is expensive but oil is too, how do I determine when the price of replacing the oil furnace with an electric one makes financial sense?
It cost $320 to keep the heat on during a 6 week period Dec to mid-Jan….OOOOOOOOOOUCH! I know it was COLD (-40 for weeks on end) but thats Canada!
fwiw The price per liter last year was about 80.2 cents/liter, and it has nowhere to go up UP.
Replies
What do you pay per KW?
hummmmmmmmm..... this is for last month, we were there for 4 days during that period.... the heated water line runs 24/7 and CAN'T be turned off and probably accounts for much of this cost.606 kwh @ 5.0000 c = $30.30
delivery $47.08
regulatory charges $ 4.01
debt reduction $ 3.89
GST $ 4.26
bill adjustment $ .08 (credit)total last month $89.46
It is hard to tell by your bill.But it appears that the deliver charge is the fixed cost and won't change with usage.I don't know if the misc charges are fixed or usage based. I am guessint that the tax is on the total bill.But in any case they would only minor increases. If all of the charges where only usage based it would increse the per kWh from 0.05 to 0.07.Here is a comparison calculator.http://warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htmThis gives some of the background.http://www.staywarmnh.org/fuelprices.htm
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks...I plugged in a cost of
$4.00/gallon for oil and a worst case scenario for elec of 6.2 cents (I reviewed some old bills and it seems that the first 600 kwh are billed at 5.0 then the rest at 6.2 Electric baseboard: $1.63Oil: $3.54these are costs per 100000 btu...so it looks like electric is about 1/2 the cost......Did I do that right?
You need to find out what the delivered cost of the electricity would be. If your "delivery cost" goes up proportionately to your electric consumption, then there would be no cost savings as you're now paying about 15 cents per kwh.
That 6 weeks of oil consumption at 82% efficiency, comes to 9,184,000 BTUs. Equivalent electric heat would consume 2700 kwh. Your delivered cost of electricity would have to be less than 11.85 cents/kwh to compete with the oil at $4/gal.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
My delivery charge is based on the number of sparks used. it goes up and down with the number of KWH
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I know you are hoping for numbers and equations, but the simplest way is just to run only one, constantly for a month, then the other constantly for a month.
I have a propane forced air furnace.
Vs- electric heat.
With propane it costs ~180 dollars a month to heat the place.
With electric, it costs ~100 for the same heat.
Pretty much a no-brainer, here...
We have been discussing amongst ourself and have decided that you are all a pigment of my imagination.
Similar math here, except you can add for the barge that brings the propane tanker. We filled our 250 gallon tank in November and it was around $2.45/gallon.
I would say the OP much better off with electric heat at .05/KW. That doesn't even take into account the inefficiency of the oil heater.
Last week I installed a 27000BTU propane fireplace and vent stack. 12 feet above the appliance, above the roof, the top of the rain cap is so hot you could fry eggs on it. That's a lot of propane to spend heating outer space.
But the five cents is for the electricity only. it costs hiom closer to thirteen cents per KWH to be able to use it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're right, I did not read his sample bill carefully enough. That $47 delivery charge is quite a lot more than we pay, and I bet he would use more than 600KW if he goes to electric heat, so cost per KW would be lower.
My bill on the island for Jan and Feb with a electric forced air is"
Basic charge (whatever that is) 7.52
Usage 5498kwh @ .o6150 338.13
Rate charge 2% (????) 6.91
clean energy fund(?????) 1.41
GST 17.63
Total $371.60
I think Hydro out here is cheap. Even though I'm a gas fitter (get stuff wholesale) I wouldn't use gas. VERY expensive here. Oil stinks.
roger
The base charge is a fixed amount for them to have someone answer the phone, provide and read the meter, and stuff like that.The cost of making and delivering the electricity is in a usage based charges.Don't know what the other 2 charges are..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I can't remember where I was living in Canada but there was a "transmission charge" which wasn't the usage charge. The way I figure is that the Hydro companies must apply to the provincial governments to increase their hydro rates but don't have to apply to increase the other stuff.
What they lose on the peanuts they make up on the popcorn.
The GST is a Federal tax "Goods and Services Tax"
roger
Edited 3/10/2008 5:34 pm ET by roger g
Our natural gas used to charged like that.A fixed price.A per unit charge for "purchased" gas. Because they had long term contracts, stored gas in old wells during the summer, hedge, and bought on the spot market it was not the true cost for that period, but rather an averaged cost.And there was per unit charge for LOCAL gas tranmission. The purchased gas charge was more of an automic rate increase based on their cost. The transmission charge was more regulated.However, they rolled the transmission charged into the fixed cost and thus there is less reason to "save" gas..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Wow! .05/KWH? That is five to six times cheaper than I pay in Tahoe. I am .25/KWH unless I use a lot - then it bumps up from there. If the electrical price stays that low by all means, put in some electrical heat. But I'd leave the oil burner (or switch to propane) just in case your electricity gets expensive.
Oil is tough right now as it's only source is the expensive crude it is refined from. Natural gas has a different supply source and possibly much larger reserves. I'm not sure if they refine natural gas for propane or if it is a by product of crude but those chemical engineers are clever. Hydroelectric electricity is really cheap (and fairly green) but most other sources are expensive. Perhaps that is why dry California electricity is so expensive. Oil might come down (after the election?) or at least should not keep climbing (turning chicken feathers into oil is $90/barrel). Go for the electric but keep a fuel based system as a backup and hedge against your electricity costing as much as mine.
Eric
I think you misunderstood. The ONLY heat source for the cottage is OIL right now....that electric bill is for running lights, furnace fan and the heat trace line that runs inside the water supply line to the lake (which is frozen right now, the ice is about 24" thick)...I can't run the electric furnace cause I don't have one (yet) :)
Ok.Well, if taken as simple advice...My results are similar to those of many others.You must have some inkling of the facts where you are, or you wouldn't be asking the question.BTW: My results are for heating the same structure, with the same average outside conditions, and to the same average temp inside. Using a propane forced air furnace for a month, as opposed to using electric baseboard. Not electric forced air.I guess I am offering anecdotal evidence as advice, instead of the numbers and equations that you need. I hope it is at least helpful.=0)
We have been discussing amongst ourself and have decided that you are all a pigment of my imagination.
Luka; thanks you very much...I really didn't know what the cost comparison would be..though now it is clear I have a few phone calls to make this summer to get rid of that oil guzzler.I appreciate the advice from all and if I came across as "a d--k rest assured I didn't mean to. My best efforts at communicating through a keyboard often do not reflect my "intent, mood or the character of what I was trying to say". I have read many many posts from folks that have a greater grasp of how to write so as to get their intent across without coming across rude....I fear that I fail at that sometimes ....If I offended you or anyone else please forgive me!
I haven't seen anything in the entire thread to take offense at.=0)Want me to go back and try to find something to take offense at ?;o)Some people are really good at THAT. I try not to pay attention to those people, once I figure out how hard they are -=trying=-, to find offense...
We have been discussing amongst ourself and have decided that you are all a pigment of my imagination.
OOOOOPS...then I apologize for apologizing!and will move on...
Where is the air supply for the oil heater coming from? With electric you could seal up almost air tight and cut losses from incoming air and out going exhaust.
The first question I have is do you have enough available amperage to power the base board heat or electric coil that would be installed in the FCU?
If it's that cold, what do you do if the power goes out? A little genny can take care of the oil fired unit, it doesn't have a prayer on electric.
I'd like to think that oil will go back down but the longer it's up like it has been I have my doubts.
I've got a 200 amp service so there is plenty of capacity and yes I have thought about the what if......the power goes out.Problem is whether its oil or gas if the power goes out at -40 there won't be any way to know and even if I did I'm 3 hours away to come start the generator. I would need a generator big enough to run the heat trace line too (an almost constant 10 amps or so)Most power outages in NW Ontario seem to be of the 1 minute to 1 hour variety. This will be less of an issue in a few years, I will be building a home next door to this cottage (the cottage is a rental during the summer) and will be there most times to deal with these things.
Your actual cost is probably close to equal right now, but keep thinking to the future. Cost of oil will be rising faster than many other energy sources. Coal is tremendously cheap by comparison and the country will be building more nuke and coal to electric plants to keep the cost of flowing electrons stable. Currently, coal is providing about 53% of the countries electricity and it wil increase. Further, the more new plants that are brought on line wil alll have the latest and best scrubber technology that keeps the pollution controled.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here is a maybe wacky idea... he said something about a nearby lake... I wonder if he could use a geothermal heat pump with tubing coils sunk in the water to heat the place more efficiently? I guess the install costs would be high though..
Install costs wouldn't be too bad, since you'd just have to sink a lot of pipe in the lake (couldn't use PEX unless you weighted it down). But, unless the lake is as deep as Superior, it wouldn't have enough temperature in the winter.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Like I said - it was just a wag of an idea I was throwing out there...
I just shutter at the thought of installing baseboard electric to save money... there's gotta be a better way...
Edited 3/4/2008 7:20 am ET by Matt
you would have a terrible problem with the environmental protection agancies and with liabilities to do a system like that
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The cost of energy = LP, Ngas, oil or elect. will all level out... one goes up the others follow.
Do a historical study and you will find that that is only vaguely true.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can find some online heating calculators that will help you answer your question. You enter the cost of the various fuels in your area and the efficiency of the systems.
In my area (Seattle), it looks like air-source heat pump is already likely to be cheaper than natural gas. Electrical resistance is still more expensive, but much less so than in the past.
Kenora
Do you get a special rate if you go all electric?
Around here the rate is cut in half if the home is all electric.
That's for Mid-America (Urban) and REC (rural).
We also get a discount if you allow them to put a shut off on to control peak demand. AC shutoff for Mid-America and water heater and AC for REC.
Is Kenora the location of the cabin?
My Dad used to take us fishing in that area in the 60s on Lake of the Woods.
We had access (his boss) to a cabin, real rustic, with a floating 2 stall boat house. Rock bass were under there all the time. Beautiful country.
Burned into my mind as God's country.
Rich
Hi all; I have considered a geothermal system (closed lake loop) and will be installing one next door when I build my home, the place I asked about is a year round rental cottage just North of Kenora Ontario.I checked some old electric bills and noted that the delivery charges varies...
eg; on a $31.80 total bill delivery was $12.34....on another bill totaling $101.00 the delivery was $48.51.Unfortunately there are NO incentives of any kind :(and cargin.... come on up its still beautiful here and although I can't catch walleye (I try!) everyone else seems to know how!
kenora
Could you give me the names of some good resorts?
This year I hope to go to South Dakota, but in the future I would dearly love to get my brothers to return to that area.
Walleye are the best for eating, small mouth put up the best fight and the northerns are fun.
I can't catch the Iowa walleyes either. I know they are in Lake Okiboji but I can't seem to find them.
Dad would always hire a guide for the first couple of days. We would fish for walleye in the morning and then eat them for shore lunch and then we would fish for northerns in the afternoons.
Shore lunch was always the same, breaded fish, cream corn and canned peaches.
Gosh thanks for stirring up the memories.
Rich
Cargin; try this linkhttp://www.kenora.ca/portal/tourism/plan/stay.aspx?id=3534if that doesn't work google (Kenora city), then select TOURISM, then PLAN YOUR TRIP and then WHERE TO STAY...there are numerous great places to stay in the area.Or you could rent mine, if you are interested PM me.
kenora
Thanks.
I saved a link to this post in my favorites.
Maybe in a year or two I can return to Canada.
Rich
Is geothermal an option for you?
jt8
"A single rose can be my garden...a single friend, my world." --Leo Buscaglia
is natural gas an oppition . it is way far more efficient
Geothermal is an option BUT a very expensive one........estimate was $15000 + or - ...oooooooooch!....natural gas is not available