good evening- was on the job today and opened up a wall and this electrical box was encased in the wall. was a sixty amp box, with a 3/4″ inch slate back the handles where a very dense hardwood . the place was built in 1912, but it seems to me that this box was installed later does anyone out there in the rank and file have an idea of a circa on this box?? we all took lunch pondering and guessing.. thought i’d go to the source.. alittle more info the box was manufactured in planville connecticut by the trumbull electric company. it does have an underwriter inspection brass tag with the serial number 45629. any help out there would be a help there a 20 bucks ridibg on this …… thanks
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” Wisdom has taught us to be calm and meek,To take one blow, and turn the other cheek…… to hell with that, keep your hands to yourself “
Replies
Alias,
Where's the house?
I ask 'cuz in large cities, electricity was installed in buildings during construction a lot earlier than in small cities and suburban/rural areas.
AT any rate, my guess is that the fusebox dates from the mid to late teens. If the house is in a major city (like N.Y. or Chicago), and was a high-end place built for a wealthy client, it might have been wired during construction, and the box may date as early as 1912.
Hope you got it out in one piece.
Cliff
cap- thanks for the reply. yes i got it out in one piece , and was a pretty heavy bugger i might add. the place was built like i said in '12 and completed in '15 the place is a 156 acre estate , the guy who owned it was named brewster , and built luxury railroad cars for fifty years circa 1880 -1930 give or take a few years.and diversified to other businesses after the lindbergh crossing , he saw the writing on the wall. the family sold the place, and they turned it into a country club. that lasted 15-20 years then it sat unoccupied for a bunch, and it landed in our lap. what a friggin' albatross, but..... a once in a life time oppurtunity.... a very ,very, mixed blessing..... slainte' thanks again." Wisdom has taught us to be calm and meek,To take one blow, and turn the other cheek...... to hell with that, keep your hands to yourself "
"cap- thanks for the reply. yes i got it out in one piece , and was a pretty heavy bugger i might add. the place was built like i said in '12 and completed in '15 the place is a 156 acre estate ,"I think that some of those estates had there own power plants.And someone mentioned about fusing the "neutal".I wonder if they had a neutral back them? When did they start grounding one side? And I suspect that the orginal supply was 120 (110), but I really don't know.
there were two wires, hot and neutral, there was no equipment ground
What determined which wire was the neutral.
i'd like to thank everyone for the discussion that been going on here in this thread. today we found alot of unsheathed wire that didnt seam to match the bitumin impregnated, up in the attic. i mean alot . filled the bucket twice in the bobcat, so there another piece of the puzzle.thanks again....####" Wisdom has taught us to be calm and meek,To take one blow, and turn the other cheek...... to hell with that, keep your hands to yourself "
What determines neutral is the line that doesn't have potential to ground because way back at the transformer from the power company it is the ground.
Or another way the line that has potential to ground, or as the Brits say "earth," is the hot.
That is what I asked in my orginal question. Was any side of the circuit grounded or where the first systems completely floating? I did not say anything about equipment grounding.
Probably when it was installed the concept of grounding one side was in its infancy, and, especially since this was likely a generator based system, it may well have been ungrounded (and DC, and who-knows-what voltage).
My first thought was ...that's DC .......why would it necessarily be AC? I guess it could have been either."
Good chance it was DC.And specially with DC, either a local plant, or utility company (I think I heard that they have a 1 mile range) I still wonder if the orginally grounded one side of the supply?Now I think that some "distribution" systems used to use the ground as a return and thus it would be grounded by design and not by need.
You're right , even though the measured voltage now is 120no telling what it was when that panel was installed, .....those knife switches just point to DC "
You called it a fusebox ... where did the fuses go? Were they the screw-in typr fuses, or a different style.
Alias ... you still have not said what city/state you are in.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Looks like it uses pennies for fuses...?
"and built luxury railroad cars for fifty years circa 1880 -1930"
check the local railroad museum, bet it came from a railroad car ..
Ed,
Cartridge fuses--the paper cylinders with brass end caps.
There are five white porcelain things down the center, each is a two-pole switch handle. To the right of each handle are the fuse holders, one for each pole, so the box would take 10 fuses.
No interior cover (AKA a "deadfront"), even when the thing was new--talk about making the individual responsible for his or her actions! Imagine going in to throw one of the switches, or change a fuse...all those hot busbars on the left of the panel, energized and just waiting for a slip of the hand!
Deadfront panels were a second-generation technology--I guess a few accidents had to happen to show the need. Hey, a lot like now...it's been said that the Natl Elec Code requirements are based on the occurence of property damage, injury, and death. Experience is an excellent (collective) teacher!
Anyway, given that the family who built the house was very wealthy, I'd say the fusebox is original equipment. Especially because the house wasn't finished till '15.
Alias, is there any evidence that the house was also piped for gas light? A lot of houses built during the transition of gas light to electric light had both technologies installed. In fact, in the teens and '0s, light fixtures were commercialy available that used both gas and electricity! The gas lamp (by this time, a mantle set-up, just like your Coleman lantern) was on the top, with the electric lampholder below it. Two stacked glass shades.
I think the estate may be in Canada, in the west...Brewster Transportation (formerly Brewester Stage Lines) is the Greyhound Bus of Canada. Except a lot better.
Cheers,
Cliff
Edited 7/29/2005 10:14 am ET by CAP
Edited 7/29/2005 10:14 am ET by CAP
Oops, replied to the wrong message<!---->
The cables coming out of the box look like "rag" wire, and not K&T.In my area, that would put it late 20's but NWOhio is rarely cutting edge!And the size of the fuses look very small, almost like the fuses used in cars until not too long ago.He might ask over at the House House Journal site -
Also looks like fused neutrals.
Also, I'm wondering now if the box was railroad equipment? Maybe look for a railroad buff site.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
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Edited 7/29/2005 10:50 am ET by Bob Walker
Took a ceramic equivalent out of my grandmother's house in the 1950's, all open front also.
From the looks of the fuse clips with the open screw holes in the center of the clips in the pictures it may be that they left the alternative of using solder wire for the fuses, which is what poorer folks like Grandma's house had - simply screw a piece of solder down across where a fuse goes.
Grandpa built the house in 1907 with gas lighting but did put K&T in the walls before the town had electricity. They installed electrical in 1916 to the best of family recollections, so concurr that the slate box was likely original to the house of the original post.
I think CAP has it right. Out here, deadfront and screw fuses were in use by the early 1920's. So this could be an original 1912 - 15 installation. There are K&T collectors who would know, and probably even want to buy it.
-- J.S.
But when dod rag wire become common? In my area it seems later than the teens ....
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Individual loomed conductors probably back to the 1890's, Loomex is I think a 1930's idea.
-- J.S.
Keep in mind that even with K&T, insulated wire was generally used to run into outlets, etc.
>>Keep in mind that even with K&T, insulated wire was generally used to run into outlets, etc.But it's not K&T in the pic
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Yea, I noticed the ragwire (loomex, that is, non-metallic cable w/a woven cotton jacket that's bitumen-soaked). This dates from much later than when the house was built.
My guess is that the wiring was upgraded in the late 20s, or early 30s.
You have to realize that if the house was wired for electricity when it was built, it was set up for electric light only.
I agree with the comment that the house probably had it's own power plant at that time--a small "dynamo" run by a one or two cylinder engine, the kind used for water pumping on a farm.
So, anyway, the family was very wealthy. I'd have to guess that they would've been among the first to have electric appliances in their home: in the kitchen, a toaster, waffle iron, mixer. Elsewhere, a radio, electric fireplace (very big in the '20s), small space heaters (the kind with a parabolic dish reflector), clothes iron, washing machine, "mangle" (a presser for linens), and so on. Granted, most of the appliances would have been used by the household staff, but the owners still had boasting rights that they had the newest technology.
All this would require receptacle outlets, and so I'll bet the place was upgraded in the late '20s, maybe just before the crash ('29). Circuits and receptacles were added, and that's the ragwire we see in the picture. It's likely that the wiring for the light fixtures was kept as is.
Grid power probably came to the house before the re-wire.
And yes, the two-pole switches disconnected both the hot and the neutral, and both were fused! Fusing the neutral was prohibited by Code by before 1920. The neutrals were fused before that because two or more lighting circuits often shared a neutral, and with only one pole on the supply (i.e., 110 volts or thereabouts), the current on the neutral was additive. In the early days, no one expected the wiring to supply anything but lighting. And it was expensive to install the wiring, so why not share a neutral, as long as it was protected from overload by a fuse.
Those old systems are very interesting.
Cliff
cliff there are no signs of gas in this building so far, but there are signs in diffrent parts of the group. the power plant is a coal furnace with a bin 12' long ,7' wide, 8'tall.with anthracite still in it. all the size of pea gravel. there is a intricate piping system throughout this quadrant of the group. the room i have been focusing on is the milking barn. with a refrigerator box for storage of the product. when when we opened up the wall the smell of sour milk came waffting out lasted for days.also a sort of syphion and heating area i assume for the pasturization process. the room as is the wholebarn area is plaster 1 1/4 " thick. there are terracotta floors and subway tiles up the walls 48" and a steam cleaner system.i could get into the architect design philosphies but that might get boring. i'll spare you . thanks for your breath of knowledge was a pleasure reading ......" Wisdom has taught us to be calm and meek,To take one blow, and turn the other cheek...... to hell with that, keep your hands to yourself "
Yeah, I wouldn't think it's much later than the mid teens.Of course, keep in mind that it may have been "recycled", and installed in this house at a later date.
this panel has fused neutrals, something I don't see in houses from even as early as the mid 20's
they finally realized the neutral could be open while the hot is closed which would make the equipment hot and looking for a ground, like the next grounded person to come along - very dangerous
MAy I suggest you send the pic to [email protected]? This is by far (IMO) best electrical site, and someone there might know.
my guess ...
1929.
simply based on the last two digits in the serial number.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa