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OK all you outside carpenter dudes- even tho I am cabinet boy, my friends all know I have all the const. answers- so here is the sitch- a friend poured a slab expecting to add a shade cover- has footings & saddles at edge of slab for 4 X 4 posts, was expecting to hang joists off house. Turns out area of house that they were going to attach to was an addition that was never permitted- city wants them to bring it up to snuff before issueing a permit. he (my buddy ) is under the impression if he doesn’t attach it to the house it doesn’t have to be permitted. Is this true? this is so. cal.,(L.A.) when he poured the slab, he didn’ set up for footings close to the house, thinking he would hang from it- will a 4″ slab carry the weight? he plans on just a shade cloth over whatever framing parts are necessary- & what would be necessary- inclosed a drawing- thanks a bunch- greg
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.. i can't view that ...it says incomplete file format...
try converting it to a .jpg
*I can't open it.
*I'm workin on it
*I don't know about California's zoning/code process.As far as the building: It looks fine, but will definitely need something to keep it laterally braced. If he doesn't want to add more members on the side walls, then the best way would be to bracing the same way as a gazebo.The principle is to put 45 degree braces from the 4x4 post to the top. Something like 1' over and 1' down or 2' over and 2' down, etc. They are usually scrolled or designed to look like part of the structure and not bracing. I know this might be hard to understand but my scanner is unplugged right now as too many other things are plugged into my ports. If this is not what you asked for, please say so. I will try to post something tonight or tomorrow morning. I'll just draw it with a different program.Billy
*no...he will not develop enough racking resistance with just diagonal braces..not if they are 2' or 3'..if this were a pole-building type structure, he could gain some additional racking resistance from the "bury" of the poles.. but he gets no assistance fromthem sitting on top of the slab..he will need diagonals almost all the way from top to bottom to get what he needs.. and even then he'll propbably need a stamp with the strict codes you guys have..
*bummer- i already told him thats what I thought(I didn't think I'd have to go all the way down, tho) my suggestion was to boge it in without permits- build it right, just without their rubber stamp
*thanks, by the way Mike & Billy...
*Besides the above , you could run purlins 12" O.C. perpendicular on top of your joists. It's not going to dramatically help it, but will help some in addition to whatever other methods you use on the walls.Billy
*come on billy... i can't even open that one...keep it to .jpg ..i gotta guess that you are reinforcing the superstructure.. since i can't see your proposal..that still leaves 6 skinny posts with no racking resistance... it's the old house of cards..it'll rotate into a collapse and spiral to the ground..the only way that can work is if the structure is tied to the existing house.. even then the end wall will not develop enough resistance with full diagonals or at least two shear panels...this structure needs 8 shear panels if it's free-standing...
*You mean you don't have Microsoft Word Mike. What's up with that? It's a .doc file.You'd know if you could open it.Billy
*I have word. It doesn't open right for me either.
*no billy... i'm a liberal remember ?i'm holding out in my corel world..pretty soon i'll hold my nose and download my daughters's 2000 office pro...but not willingly
*Greg,If you've got Microsoft Word I can send you an e-mail with it in Word format and you can open it. Billy
*billy- I don't think I have that- I have microsoft works. I am basically computer stupid- give me a sheet of plywood & a table saw & i'm ok-put me in front of a keyboard & watch me flounder around like a fish out of watermike - would this suffice for sheer? I'm tringto keep it a bit dressy
*That's the same principle I was trying to show you only using a different method, Greg.It would be best to add the sheathing to the the middle posts as well.Billy
*thanks a bunch, billy- next round at the tavern is on cabinetboy-what about the size of the rafters & girders(or headers, or whatever you want to call them)? biggest span between 4 x 4's is 11', span on rafters is 13'6". thanks again, gb
*here in the coastal zone of RI we have to design for 90 MPH....a structural engineer would have to figure teh racking resistance of the decorative shear panels you have shwn ,, including the shear resistance of the fasteners..but offhand .. just a visual observation..NO..absolutely not...another consideration will be.. does a free-standing structure of that SF area have to comply with the same structural requirements of a larger building.?.. if not .... then don't sweat it.. but it doesn't have hardly any racking resistance..me and a 16 ' 2x10 could have it down in two shakes of a lambs tail... and i only weigh 160....
*if your willing to use metal, you can do away with the middle posts, and all the shear panels. you could still use wood for the joist
*Greg,On what Mike said: Ditto, ditto, and ditto.Those brackets Billy describes won't solve anything. Burying 6" steel posts in 10' conrete might work. There was an article in an older FHB on garage door wall shear (2'-3' walls either side of the door). It may be of some help. It'll at least give you an idea on how weak some shear strategies really are.
*Mike Willms,For one thing you haven't seen my design. For another, this is not a garage. Gazebos are designed all the time with this basic principle and that's basically what this structure is and will be used like. And my design also had a Simpson product in it that helped with shear.Billy
*And as far as Greg's design, if nailed off extremely well, you'd be VERY hard pressed to push that over Mike S. If he had sheathing on the inside and outside nail off extremely well, there is no way you could push it over. And if he used a combination of his way (with sheathing inside and outside) and my first post and nailed it off well, an engineer would stamp it.Billy
*If all he wants is a shade cloth over a slab, open on all sides, then the structure with all the joists up there is way overkill. There are ready-made off the shelf canopies and tents that will do the job without putting heavy stuff over your head. Check out party rental companies, see who they buy them from. Or poke around on Google.com. They're not buildings, so there are no code issues at all.Another advantage to this solution is that it's portable. You could store it away during the winter, take it with you on vacation and use it elsewhere.-- J.S.
*bull... billy... y don't u yust admit wen ur wrong...wrong... wrong ?shear is as shear does... as my friend forrest used to say....hah, hah, hah....hey.. how 'bout my man Tiger ?wow... did Duval & Mickelson choke ? er what ?
*You're not an engineer Mike and also can't admit when you're wrong. Stupid $#^*&. You're going to take this building and classify it as an occupied structure? You've definitely got issues. Next thing ya know a 6x6 shed out back will start costing 3 times as much when you get done. Just to pass your engineering standards which you know nothing about.Billy
*hah, hah, hah... and you can't read either..... y i yust got thru telling him the code might not apply to a detached building... but yur so full of yourself your sputtering must of blinded you.....and it don't take an engineering degree to do some basic engineering...ask one a first year engineering student could look at that and know it was going to fail in shear...hah, hah, hah... u yust kill me billy.....
*John, That is a good idea. It would probably be his best bet. But with Mike around it wouldn't pass HIS code which is the whole issue.Billy
*Mike,I never said code didn't apply to detached buildings. But it depends on it's use now doesn't it. This wouldn't even be in the same class as most detached buildings. It's hardly even a building. You just can't see through the fog in your brain.Billy
*billy .. are ye daft , man ?he said he was in L.A. that's where they invented shear panels.. if he can't get it past RI code..how in the hell is going to get it past LA code.?...now say after me..READING IS FUNDAMENTAL..hah, hah, hah...how 'bout that Master's huh ?
*Me daft? You are too funny Mike. You don't even know what this is do you Mike? I didn't think so. Trellises are next on your list, aren't they? Come on. Just admit you're wrong and quit using up all of Taunton's space. You definitely need to realize what you're talking about before you speak and stop misquoting me while you're at it. Arbors, trellises, dog houses, sheds, canopies, etc. Where do you admit you're wrong?Billy
*enuff already.. let's go someplace else to argue..how 'bout tools ?come on.... i'lll push yur buttons ..you're too easy...
*I'll go wherever ya want. I agree about here though. Where at in tools. Meet ya there.Billy
*thanks....I think....
*Hi, Greg, i was waiting for the fan to stop slinging...well, you know.I second the canopy idea if shade and shelter are the object, and not a deck above. There is fine, white, powder-coated aluminum one that Costco sells for ~$200 for a 10 x 10. There are many other sizes as well, some that come with rainproof nylon covers and some that are mesh which let out hot air better, but let rain in. We craft-fair folk use them all the time in pretty adverse conditions. I can set mine up in less than 10 minutes, and have been using it for three years and it is only slightly yellowed, although they can be washed. Some names to investigate are Enviroshade, K-D Canopies, E-Z Up, some others. I'll give more details if you're interested.
*SG- yeah, there was some dung being flung there ... thanks for the thought, my friend has some of those he uses camping- I think they are on a kick to build/ fixup the house- anyway, thanks again, gb
*just an idea for thought...four corner columns in metal, on bases, on grout, bolted to concrete deck. plain or fancy. you could do the posts in wood, but you'll have to attach some hardware at the base capable of resisting the tendency to bend inward (see below). I'm thinking a 4x6 minimum, with a custom base that wraps the base of the column and then bolts to the deck. Were you able to set them in the pour, I believe a pair of 1/4" straps would suffice if long enough. One strap goes in tension, the other in compression. Someone with the math could work it up, and call the member for you too. For sure, the metal column is the easiest. Two arched diagonal canopy supports, fastened in the center. these could be made from whatever you or the craftsman can doThe corners of the sunshade, made from sailcloth, or whatever, will have nice fat grommetts in the corners, so you can cinch them down to the posts. Sailcloth will take a good pounding for a number of years. You might be able to rig up some kind of roller system to open and close. These are very common on sailboats, one might be modified...?Make a way to fasten the shade at the apex of the rafters. Seems like this kind of canopy might be under lift, rather than lateral loads. Put all the money you save from lumber and labor into a bomb cover that won't go sailing into the neighbors yard. If I was going to build something like this, I would for sure speak with an engineer.
*thanks nathan- I met my buddy for lunch yesterday,went over all concerns voiced- he already knows what he wants to build- I wished him luck- Mark , if you read this, listen to these guys- gb
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OK all you outside carpenter dudes- even tho I am cabinet boy, my friends all know I have all the const. answers- so here is the sitch- a friend poured a slab expecting to add a shade cover- has footings & saddles at edge of slab for 4 X 4 posts, was expecting to hang joists off house. Turns out area of house that they were going to attach to was an addition that was never permitted- city wants them to bring it up to snuff before issueing a permit. he (my buddy ) is under the impression if he doesn't attach it to the house it doesn't have to be permitted. Is this true? this is so. cal.,(L.A.) when he poured the slab, he didn' set up for footings close to the house, thinking he would hang from it- will a 4" slab carry the weight? he plans on just a shade cloth over whatever framing parts are necessary- & what would be necessary- inclosed a drawing- thanks a bunch- greg