My first post – please be gentle. I’m in the process of rennovating a 3-season porch into a regular 4-season room (in Minnesota). The room was built with 2×4 construction and fiberglass insulation. I’ve pulled off the drywall, removed the fiberglass (to replace with spray-in-place closed cell foam), and was shocked to find the Tyvek installed inside the BildRite. I’ve never owned a home sheathed with BildRite before – is that normal? Shouldn’t the Tyvek be in between the siding (which is cedar) and the sheathing?
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Don't know what BildRite is, but yes, normally the Tyvek is between the siding and sheathing.
With cedar siding, though, you have another problem: The tannins in cedar (guys am I using the right term here?) will eat at Tyvek, eventually breaking it down. Your best bet is to just use tarpaper (say, a double layer of 15#) between the sheathing and siding (if possible).
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
That was the proper terminology, but I'm not sure of the spelling of the word
I had never heard of Buildrite either but here is their web site:
http://www.bildrite.net/index.htm
Which says:
Building PaperInternational Bildrite Sheathings are considered, by ICBO, Evaluation Report #3567, to be "water repellent panel sheathings," and as such, do not require building paper or its equivalent, unless required by local building codes.
So, Tyvek, in most cases serves as both an air barrier and a secondary rain screen directly under the siding. It sounds like, in the case of this guy's house, putting the Tyvek inside the sheathing may well have been the best thing to do. In this case, it is only an air barrier, and the method of construction is relying on the Buildrite sheathing to provide the secondary rainscreen. Of coarse this is just conjecture...
"With cedar siding, though, you have another problem: The tannins in cedar (guys am I using the right term here?) will eat at Tyvek, eventually breaking it down."Jason,Do you have proof of that?Joe Carola
Somebody go find that old FH pic with the deteriorated housewrap under the cedar.
I know I remember seeing it. It wasn't a full page photo but maybe just a quarter page or smaller. Had a write up by it too. Back a ways before issue #153 I know 'cause #153 was ...well... it's a strange thing ya know I remember back in ...
"Somebody go find that old FH pic with the deteriorated housewrap under the cedar."Yes, I would like to see that ONE picture.Instead of guys reading about it and hearing stories about it here, I would like to see pictures and pictures of this.I'm still not believing this.Joe Carola
Roar! Really Joe, I remember quite a ways back a pic with a little writeup about it in an old FHB mag. Kinda like a little news blurb thing and not an article.
It's too late now but if no one addresses this I'll go hawking thru the stack sometime and scan the page right here, regardless if Uncle Dunc will report me to the management and hang me from my
toes.
be toad
16821.4
Edited 9/20/2005 12:09 am ET by rez
Edited 9/20/2005 12:31 am ET by rez
Rez,It's been addressed before and I also posted a thread last week on it. It's just that from where I'm from no one has ever heard of it before. No Architects,lumber yards and other contractors. I've never seen any proof of it and I've rip down many additions with tyvek underneath cedar before where the tyvek is 15- 20 years old.If this was so true then they should ban tyvek from being underneath cedar all over the country and Architects and Building departments should note it on all plans.When people tell other people not to use it because of the tannins those people should research it themselves and ask the Architects and Building inspectors if this is true.There's tons of builders shows and seminars out there. So how come it's not brought up and if it was, don't you think it would've raised a red flag before and Architects and even the Cedar companies would know about it?I even spoke to a rep about it and just received an email from a rep at the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association and they both told me that it's not true.The proof that I have like I said above is that I've never seen it before and guys here will say that the tannins will eat the tyvek very quick. Maybe from where their from but not here. I think a lot of guys who say not to use it are just saying that because they're hearing about it here and they've read some articles on it.If the people who are righting the articles about it have any influence on the rest of the building industry and it was true then there would've been a stop to tyvek being used and it would be addressed at every building seminar or construction magazine not to use it.Joe Carola
Edited 9/20/2005 12:48 am ET by Framer
Hey Joe,
I don't know much about it. Was just saying I remember seeing that photo and the little write up somewhere. It had to be FHB cause I wasn't reading JLC back then. Seems it was quite a while ago.
I used the advanced search feature and it worked this time giving some threads from '99 and 2000 that mentioned an article somewhere on the JLC forum or in the mag and then a post by AndyE in 16821.4 mentioning a future atricle by Joe Lstiburek.
I just looked at my collection of 1 thru 150 of FHB and the thought of trying to find that one photo as a news blurb and not an article seems daunting at best.
I sure am hoping AndyE shows up here to relieve me of my faux pas.
be a blundering feckless dastard
Edited 9/20/2005 1:07 am ET by rez
I read this also recently in a Building Sciences article. But the claim was not that tannins were the problem but *surfactants,* which are present in a wide spectrum of sheathing materials, including cement planking. Lstiburek wrote in his article that you just backprime the cedar, put in a rain screen and that will take care of the problem.As for industry ignorance and denials--so what else is new? This reminds me of the denials about CCA pressure treated wood for a couple of decades. Legal counsel always advises denial and stalling.
JLC articles that talk about the effects of surficants on housewrap:
Housewrap Vs Felt 11/98Choosing a Sheathing Wrap 8/2000
and a short JLC blurb in 6/2000 in On the House about tannins in 6/2000
I'll let someone else give the actual quotes, although there were no pictures shown and to me what was presented was not real conclusive.
Here is a link to the article which shows the house in question. It's issue #137.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00150.asp
Why hasn't somebody checked snopes for this urban myth?
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars.
rez, I remember the article, but not the year or issue. The article was on Rain Screen Wall construction, and the tyvek caution was in a side bar within the atricle.
I looked at FHB home page to do a search for past articles, but can't figure out if that is possible. Maybe someone will come up with it for us.
Dave
I think you guys are looking for "Rain Screen Walls: A better Way to Install Siding" by Mark Averill Snyder in issue 137. He consulted with Lstiburek on the project. We also did a brief feedback piece in a more recent issue after Mark called in to tell us how well the paint job was holding up with the new rain screen walls.
Cheers,
Brian P.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of UncleDunc here is the pic.
r u a feckless dastard?
Thank you Rez.That's one picture so far.Joe Carola
I believe that's the one I was thinking off.
I know what yer looking for: close up shots of before and after.
Kinda like the pressuretreated tests of PT driven into the ground and monitored over the years.
Good luck.View Image
r u a feckless dastard?
Rez,They tested the pt for years and found something wrong with it and did something about it and now we have acq. God knows what they will find wrong with this sooner or later.My point to this whole thing is that you would think that with all the building going on in this country with the thousands and thousands of houses that are being sided with cedar over tyvek that there would be a concern about this eating through the house wrap that it's sitting on but I guess that's not important enough to put a stop to all this.That's why I don't believe it's true with the couple articles or pictures people talk about.All I want to do is the right thing in this business and educate myself even more about what's to do and what not to do and what to use and what not to use.I will be doing all the exterior trim (I'm using Koma) and siding on a house that I just framed using cedar shakes over tyvek as per Architects instructions. This Architect never heard of this either and it's in Coltsneck NJ and a very expensive house the Architect said just use the tyvek like everyone has been doing for the past 20 years without any problems. So I will. Thanks again.Joe Carola
Yep, seems like another area of the big grey twilight of, rumors, unsubstaniated reports, lack of testing and who are the power brokers.
be in question
r u a feckless dastard?
Rez,I met another Architect this afternoon and asked her the big question and she looked at me like I was crazy just like everyone else does and told me that she never heard of it either.Joe Carola
Edited 9/20/2005 7:48 pm ET by Framer
Joe, i just finished building a bay window into a house that we had built in 1987. We used tyvek exclusively at that time and the product still looks perfect today. The contractor i was working for at the time was sceptical of the product but it was what everyone else was using at the time.
The cedar siding was not back primed (owner did the painting) and aside from a few boards that have cupped real bad, the cedar and tyvek are still in fine shape. I am starting to think that this is all a crock of b.s.
p.s. live on the west coast of canada with lots wind driven rain throughout the fall and winter.
You see, Eighteen years later with unprimed cedar sitting on top of tyvek without a trace of it eating it away. When I lived in Cape Cod in 1984 framing houses and installing cedar shakes was the framers job and we put the unprimed shakes on top of tyvek.I wonder if anyone out there has problems with it.Whe I moved back to NJ I did the same thing and so did everyone else.I wonder if there's any Architects that read this forum that have anything to say about this.Where did you even here about cedar eating tyvek?Joe Carola
"Where did you even here about cedar eating tyvek?
Joe Carola "
I never heard it anywhere, i have only read it on the internet. Call me naive but i just assumed that tyvek was slowly rotting away under all these houses! About three years ago i had sworn off tyvek forever thinking it was all doom and gloom.
A lot of people use this forum and the jlc forum, surely someone has some real world experience with lots of pictures of damaged tyvek? But maybe not!
"Where did you even here about cedar eating tyvek?"Joe Carola "
"I never heard it anywhere, i have only read it on the internet."That Idiot......I've also only heard of it on here and at JLC. I think that's where everyone here's it also."A lot of people use this forum and the jlc forum, surely someone has some real world experience with lots of pictures of damaged tyvek? But maybe not!"I think not. There's more people here who just say cedar eats tyvek because of these forums and a couple links to some articles about an incident or two then actually having proof of it.Joe Carola
Joe this is turning out to be downright hilarious!
I had always wondered a little bit about the rotting tyvek claims but just assumed that there was ample evidence around to show for it.
We all know what happens when we assume!
Joe, seems like this may have turned into one of those urban legend things.
Like you, I would prefer some hard evidence of tyvek failure, but we certinl won't see it coming from DuPont. I am surprized that the Building Science people haven't raise a warnig flag if there is truely a problem.
The term "rotting tyvek" seems to have creeped into discussions about cedar siding and tyvek. I don't think that was ever implied or stated in the Taunton article. It was more like a loss of moisture resistance, meaning that any moisture that did get behind the siding "might" go through the tyvek. Without a long term study to validate the "might",they recommended staying with the long proven felt paper under cedar.
The whole articl was about how to construct a Rain Screen Wall, and the tyvek comment was a support argument for the construction method, IMO. It was an interesting idea and article, but I don't take it as gospel. I certenlly didn't change my building methods based on that comment.
If there was that kind of problem with tyvek and cedar siding, the law suites would have started sometime in the last twenty years. DuPont is a deep pocket. Class action suites would abound, but I haven't heard of any. Have you?
Dave
Joe, I respect your work, but that architect is wrong. It is utterly amazing to me how little most architects know about structure and building science.
Edit: Both of those architects are uninformed. Research Fisette and JLC, and you'll find the research. Look up Mark Averill Snyder's article in FHB, and you'll see the research. It's not myth, it's not anecdotal (although there is plenty of that). It's been demonstrated by some of the leading building scientists out there.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Edited 10/14/2005 10:37 am ET by AndyEngel
"Joe, I respect your work, but that architect is wrong. It is utterly amazing to me how little most architects know about structure and building science."Andy,How come every where I go in this state that I work talking to Architects,Lumberyards, Builders, Remodelers, every contractor that I know and I even spoke to the rep at Western Red Cedar Association and he said it's not true and they did studies on it. What would he benefit by saying that if it's not true.You worked for Fine Homebuilding.Is this mentioned in the magazine often and does the magazine promote tyvek? How come this is not brought up at any seminars or it's not banned from using all over the Country? How come every house that I've remodeled over the years with tyvek under unprimed cedar was still in good shape?How come no one has heard of this in New Jersey and if this was so important how come all the towns aren't notified or news letters sent out or at all theses big seminars that go on all over don't talk about this or investigate this? How come the National Association of Home Builders doesn't ban it at there seminars or send out letters to every Builder not to use this?This doesn't make any sense. We're supposed to building Fine Homes but if there's products out there that are claimed to disintegrate then why isn't someone doing something about it.How do we explain that tyvek works under cedar in some places and it doesn't work in other places?Joe Carola
Joe: I too sincerely doubt that the tyvek itself is actually attacked and broken down by tannins or other oils in cedar. I could see the tannins or other oils reducing the tendency of the Tyvek to bead away liquid water, or plugging its micropores to the point where it no longer can "breathe" water vapour properly. But I can't imagine any way that anything leaching out of cedar is going to out and out "break down" the plastic that Tyvek is made out of.
Are we sure that this isn't a good piece of advice (i.e. about Tyvek potentially losing its value as a liquid water leakage barrier when installed behind cedar), but just interpreted badly? Have you seen any evidence of water migration behind Tyvek in any of the cedar siding jobs you've stripped?
Joe, in my opinion, no one has heard of this because the vast majority of builders and architects are almost wholly ignorant of building science. It's not well taught in architecture school, and unless a builder has sought it out, he won't know because no one told him. It's not common knowledge. You have to work a little bit to get it. Ask around at your lumberyard. How many guys there do you think read the trade journals? Not many. You guys are ahead of the curve.
I have a great deal of respect for the work and pride you guys put into your projects. I've done the same work, and in fact have made the mistakes. But this stuff has been in both FHB and JLC. I've edited some of those articles, and I've spoken with the PhDs who've done the studies. I believe them. They've convinced me. Most of you don't have the access I've had, but that's what the magazines are for.
I'm not singling out Tyvek. It can be a great product. I'm telling you that I've seen the research that says plastic housewraps are more sucseptible to tannin degradation than tar paper is. Plastic housewraps can work great under many materials, even cedar. But if you get a situation where water can leach the tannins out, housewraps can degrade. I've seen the research, and I've seen evidence of this on renovation work I've done. Maybe it doesn't happen every time. But my point is that there are ways to minimize these issues and to ensure that what you build will be around to point out to your grandkids.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy and Mike, I'm with Framer, rather than anecdotal "evidence," where can we see the real degradation? I want to build well, too, and if tar paper is the stuff, I'll go back to using it. But, I've still never seen anything other than discolored Tyvek under cedar...show me the breakdown<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
See if that discolored housewrap is watertight.
I'll stick with felt. It's well proven, has no anecdotal reports of breakdown, is cheap, and seals around nails to some degree. I don't see what housewrap does that felt doesn't do (except cost more), since I doubt housewrap's worth in keeping wind out. Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Some of us don't have any choice in housewrap. I was retagged on a job 3 years ago because I felted the house. The BI made me pull it all and put up plastic (Tyvek).
I have seen really ratty plastic housewrap but don't remember the brand. I do remember that it appeared to be a woven product, more like a sun screen with the wide poly threads but tightly woven. I believe the reason it was falling apart was that it had been exposed to the elements for an extended period of time before being covered. I think the UV degradation hastened its demise.
See! The friggin' BIs at it again!
be making it openseason 24/7 365 on BIs
Actually this is one big quality thread that needs read by all.
40,000 Americans are injured by toilets each year.
Edited 10/16/2005 2:35 pm ET by rez
"Joe, in my opinion, no one has heard of this because the vast majority of builders and architects are almost wholly ignorant of building science."What about the Reps at Western Red Cedar Association. Don't you think they would have something to say about it if it was so bad?What about NAHB, wouldn't they be talking about it?Here's what the Rep from the Western Red Cedar Association emailed me."Talk about, 'Old Wives Tales', this one seems to persist. I have in 40 years
around Western Red Cedar never once heard of a single problem related to Tyvek
Housewrap, and for the past 3 years I am one of only 2 people in North America
who answer such problems for the Western Red Cedar industry. My west coast
counterpart has done this same work for 6 years and he has never heard of ####single problem, and the man who held this job for 10 years before me says the
same thing. Yet here you are asking me this question. I know not where this
started, probably from someone selling a product that competes with Tyvek.
Dupont, the company that makes Tyvek has an FAQ section on their website, and it
says they know of no such problem.
My advice is to use Tyvek if you want, it is an excellent product.
I am the chairman on a committee that is re-writing the paper on 'Extractive
Bleeding' for the USDA Forest Products Laboratory,http://www.FPL.FS.FED.US, and (tanins
are correctly referred to as naturally occuring extactives in the wood).
Consequently I have access to any and all information relating to those
'Extractives' from what is the premier 'World Class' source of such wood related
information. Nowhere in that data base is there a mention of any problem with
these compounds and any plastic product, like the olefin plastic that Tyvek is
made from.
On a personal note, I, personally resided me sisters home 20 years ago with
Western Red Cedar over Tyvelk housewrap, and she still resides in that home.
There has never been a problem, and I do not expect one in the future.
I hope this puts your mind to rest on this Non-Issue."Andy, I'm not trying to be difficult here because I'm the type of guy who wants to do things the right way and get the job done with quality that lasts for a long time. If they're putting products out there that are inferior to homebuilding that will cause the problems that we're talking about here then it should be addressed Nationally and not just on a forum.What your thoughts on what the Rep wrote to me and how would it benefit him to not to tell the truth and doesn't the word of the WRCA Res mean anything?Joe Carola
joe... the cedar bureau doesn't do much for me.. they still have instructions on their site about applying cedar shingles on plywood roofs..
putting shingles on plywood roofs without skip sheathing or cedar breather will shorten the roof's life by half
long story short.. they are so far behind the curve they're useless..
go to their site and try and find useful information...what a bunch of doltsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Then WHO will give us the RIGHT ANSWERS?To me this is a MAJOR problem if it's true. Why isn't it BROADCASTED TO EVERYONE all over the Country and at every Building Seminars, NAHB,Architects, Building Departments, Lumber Yards, Trade Magazines,.......etc.Just like the Pressure Treated lumber being changed to ACQ. That obviously raised red flags around the Country and where talking about decks. These are Houses that we're building and people claiming that a product that goes on thousands and thousands of houses every day that could FAIL.Joe Carola
Joe, it's been written up in JLC and in FHB. How much more national do you want?
As to the ACQ replacing CCA, I'm not sure that was worth doing. Maybe, but I think that what happened there springs for environmental paranoia. Could be wrong there, since the A in CCA stands for arsenic, and we all know that's bad stuff. But I do think we go to far in pursuit of safety sometimes. Ooh, did I say that?Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
here's what i think.... Tyvek is the best of the housewraps... but Tyvek is not superior in any way to 15# felt..
Tyvek and housewraps enjoy their popularity because they come in 9' foot rolls, they don't tear easily, and they save labor money in wrapping a house..
but to me...they don't save any money.. we stage up , paper-in, and side as we go..
Tyvek and housewraps are the cheapest way to comply with code..
if it were cheaper to do 15# felt... most of the housing would be built with felt..
NAHB is not going to condem housewrap.. it does the job under most conditions...
the studies i have seen proved to me that 15# felt was superior to Tyvek in almost all categories... that is why we use it..
and most of the problems with Tyvek and surfactants would not be a problem if the housewrap, flashings and sidings had been correctly installed
if you remove moisture from the back of the siding , there is no problem with housewrap..
house wrap in particular is over rated... Tyvek is the best of the housewraps.... and yes, there have been instances of tannins deteriorating tyvek and other housewraps.. i've seen it.. and i've seen the studies that also showed it
Dupont and their marketing campaign have made a success of Tyvek... you can wrap a house twice as fast, it is much more resistant to tear off..
it just isn't as good a product as 15# felt... and the sometime deterioration is not made up
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
joe.. i read your email from the rep..very interesting..
but other than being the rep.. what are his credentials.?. i know lots of guys who rep products... some of 'em were selling cars the day before
this guy shingled his sister's house...
gimme a break.....
if you want anecdotal ... just read his email.. it's a classic example
read Fisette's paper... that's not anecdotal..
BTW.. 90% of the problems are installation.. and bad installation with tyvek is no better than bad installation with 15# felt
most of the problems i see have to do with GC's not supervising their siding subs.. and a lot of siding subs don't know .. or don't care
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Joe, I don't think the rep was lying. I just think he hasn't seen what I've seen. And as far as someone selling a competing product benefitting from this, well, I've said all along that the only competing product I like is felt. I've been quite careful not to say Tyvek when I meant housewrap. I think people say Tyvek when the mean housewrap, just like they say Xerox when they mean photocopy, so it seems as if they're singling out Tyvek. From what I remember of Fisette's testing, Tyvek fared the best after felt.
And I'm not saying not to use housewrap. I'm saying that I don't think it's the best choice in contact with cedar that hasn't been backprimed, and I have in fact seen Tyvek (Yes, the brand) that was utterly shot that had spent twenty years behind unprimed cedar. Beyond that, its only downside is cost.
Ralph, did you ask the inspector to show where in the code felt is not permitted? I'd be very surprised to learn that the inspector was in bounds. Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Joe, I also want to be clear as day that I'm not trying to be disrespectful of you or your work. I've read your posts for years, and you always come across as a class act.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
It's not at all clear from the picture what happened. It could be that the paper was left exposed for months before the siding was installed. If that's not the case then either the guy's back is to the beach or the siding job was pretty crummy.
HEY!
I'm not getting in the middle of this. All I said was a humored attempt saying I remembered seeing a pic in an old issue.
If someone wants to put unprimed cedar shakes over tyvek that's ok by me.
If someone wants to use R-15 fiberglass batts in a 2x4 wall as long as a quality vaporbarrier is used that's ok by me.
If they want to use a vented cold roof on a new roof that's fine too.
If the folks are broke and want to take that old bundle of masonite siding from out of storage and use it primed and sealed high off the ground with 36 inch eaves that's, eh, alright.
If you want to use ACQ lumber to build a deck trusting color coated screws that say for use in ACQ lumber on the box go ahead.
If you want to just buff out that old wood floor instead of sand and seal have at it.
If one wants to use exterior bigbox paint up under their eves, ok.
2x6 header in that interior 30inch bedroom door? no problem.
If they want to use piffin screws on the 1x material the cubscouts are using to build their birdhouses for mom and dad, fine.
Anymore than that then don't ask me, I just work here! ;o)
r u a feckless dastard?
Edited 9/20/2005 11:04 am ET by rez
The article doesn't address the siding material as much as it does water intrusion. The short story goes like this: Sheets of flaking paint, hmmm there must be a problem, remove a few clapboards and everything is soaking, but wait, the siding was installed right, flashings were good...enter Joe Lstiburek who says water WILL find a way to get behind the siding no matter how well it is installed. If it can't get out, big problems. Solution says Joe: rain screen walls, and backprime of course to seal tannins, sugars, and detergents (all of which are surfactants) that can bleed and cause the housewrap to loose repellency.
Brian P.
You don't get that much water intrusion unless something's wrong.Also, from the picture it's not clear that the Tyvek has in any way failed. It is true it is stained, but there's no evidence that that has caused any problems.
Edited 9/20/2005 12:32 pm ET by DanH
When building a house here with cedar siding, the builder I dealt with wanted a signed statement that you agreed to Tyvek under your cedar (if you did, of course). He's seen the same Tyvek deterioration problem and this was his way around any law suits.
Jason, just out of curiosity...how can you recommend covering the Buildrite sheathing with a double layer of tarpaper when you just stated that you have never heard of Buidrite?. You may be right, but to remove the cedar siding (and most likely damage it) would be a big mistake. I have replaced cedar siding that was over Tyvek and usually just found water stains at the seams, but no rotting of the Tyvek. The mistake the builder made was he didnt put a piece of tar paper under the seam lapping the top of the previous row. I have seen this problem on all types of lap siding and that little step can save alot of headaches down the road.
We had a place on our house where the builder poured a porch right up against BiltRite. Water would stand against the sheathing after a rain. It was like this for over 15 years. When I pulled off the BiltRite the framing behind it showed no hint of moisture.Builder's felt over BiltRite would be just plain silly.
>> The mistake the builder made was he didnt put a piece of tar paper under the seam lapping the top of the previous row. I have seen this problem on all types of lap siding and that little step can save alot of headaches down the road. <<
Are you saying that each time a course of lap siding is applied a strip of tar paper should also be applied just above it, but lapping the top edge?
if I read him right, he is just saying to put a small piece of tar paper under the butt joints in the siding
Edited 9/22/2005 9:19 am ET by Shoeman
Matt, what I meant was to put a 1 1/2 " strip of tar paper vertically under each butt joint...that laps the top of the previous row. What it does is channel any water out of the seam, rather than let it under the siding below. You slide it under the edge of one side,then put in the adjoining piece of siding.
Oh - OK. After rereading your post I see that I did not interpret "seams" to mean butt joints... I thought you meant the horizontal seams.
Do you feel this is necessary on cement board siding too (for example) or is this just for siding that will not be caulked & painted?
Edited 9/22/2005 7:39 am ET by Matt
Its cheap insurance for any type of lap siding. You know that caulking in a butt joint is eventually going to crack.
just wanted to resurface this thread..
i've used tyvek, typar.. most of the popular ones..
i've seen rotten tyvek in strip-offs..
i've never seen rotten 15# felt
the article in jlc was the final straw for me.. i haven't used tyvek since...
to me felt is the equal , or superior to, tyvek... so WHY would i use tyvek ?
tyvek sucks...
felt is warm and fuzzy.. you guys have no soulMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's OK for the Tyvek to be on either side of the sheathing. You don't get as much rain screen effect with it on the inside side, but you don't need that so much with BildRite, which is fairly good at shedding moisture.
And having it on the inside avoids the Tyvek/cedar issue.
So when you look at the wall from the interior now, you see studs and Tyvek, right? That means that if you leave the Tyvek in place, your spray foam insulation will be hanging from it, with an air gap between the Tyvek and your sheathing. Hmmm.
Onec the spray foam is in place, you're done with infiltration anyway. Cut out the Tyvek and get on the with the foam job, IMHO.
I'm curious - why do you think it would be a good idea to cut out the Tyvek? My bigger concern is really one to do with the way the deck that adjoins the sunroom was flashed. As I got underway with this project, I saw that there had been some water intrusion under the sunroom, in between the rim joist for the deck and the rim joist for the sunroom. When I pulled off a couple courses of siding, the flashing that sits over the deck rim joist is in between the BildRite and the siding, but not behind the Tyvek. As such, any moisture that actually reaches the Tyvek will drain down in between the Tyvek and the BildRite, and never hit the flashing, thus going down into the insulated cavity below the sunroom. I can't think of any way to correct this other than to remove the siding, re-wrap the house (or at least the sunroom), re-flash, and re-side.
How much is "some" water intrusion? How did the water get into the wall in the first place?
It's hard to say where the water came from - either from above the bottom plate (i.e., through gaps in caulk around windows, etc.) or from at or below the bottom plate - the deck is built so that the deck boards basically but right up to the starter course of the cedar siding. I've attached a simple cross section diagram to try to show what's going on. The water is coming down in between the deck rim joist and the double 2x10, then running horizontally into the first joist bay above the sheathing under the sunroom floor.
Mike, it sounds like you are just getting water in behind the siding. Dont worry about the Tyvek being on the inside,its not really a moisture barrier anyway. I cant see your picture ( jpg mode is the only one that works with this ancient system). Before you do anything drastic like residing, just check your seams, caulk joints, flashing, etc. If its getting in a seam, try to carefully loosen the siding at the seam and slide a 1" wide piece of tar paper up under it to the top of the siding. Make sure it covers the top of the row under it. Tap the siding and nails back in and cut the exposed tar paper off with your knife. Its worth a try, Good Luck.