The underground service line the utility company put in on my new construction comes in right by one of the bedrooms. Since they don’t charge for digging and running the line, you don’t get much choice in where they put it. I can’t run the conduit right through the wall into the main floor as the load panel would be in the middle of a kids bedroom. I can run a short conduit down into the basement and hook it up there but the best location would be in the middle of the basement where the mechanicals are, or in the laundry/mud room on the main floor. If I do this I will need to put in a weatherproof disconnect in and run about 40-50′ of feed line to the panel.
What would you do?
Thanks for any help.
Regards,
Dennis
Replies
This varies a lot from utility to utility and climate to climate. Here in LA, they don't do any digging for you. You have to pay a contractor or do it yourself, and you have to put the meter exactly where the DWP tells you to. It's quite common to have one breaker panel for the whole house, mounted on the outside with the meter. That's no fun at all when it rains.
In your case, how about a small panel with big breakers in it outside next to the meter, feeding sub-panels in the mud room and basement? If you have an upstairs, give it its own sub-panel. That way all your branch circuit breakers can be on the same floor with the circuits they serve, and you never have to climb stairs in the dark.
-- J.S.
JUohn: When I lived in San Diego our panel was outside, behind the shrubbery, on the side of the house. There wasn't a single breaker in the house. Took me days to find it after we moved in.Why do they do that? Seems to me it is an invitation for mischief makers.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
> Why do they do that? Seems to me it is an invitation for mischief makers.
They do it because it's cheaper than putting a sub panel indoors. I remember doing a job long ago where the cilent's 10 year old son asked about what I was doing, and when I explained how breakers shut off power to various parts of the system, his response was, "Oooh, I'm going to have so much fun!" ;-)
(Of course I told the client what to expect....)
-- J.S.
Edited 1/7/2005 3:29 pm ET by JOHN_SPRUNG
A few years ago I heard "stories" about older areas of LA where the panels would have used obsolete brands of breaker and people opne the outside panels and stealing the breakers.Don't know how try taht was.
The local fire authorities told me the outside placement (or at least an outside accessable main breaker) was required in California because of civil defense and fire fighting issues. If a shaker or fire comes along, they want to be able to cut off the buildings power to avoid unnecessary risk to the fire fighters.
From that comes your comment ablout being too cheep about placing a second inside panel. As well as the point about not being able to find it for weeks after moving in. Seems somehow the code is not being followed subsequently with the overgrowth of brush.
The local fire authorities told me the outside placement (or at least an outside accessable main breaker) was required in California because of civil defense and fire fighting issues. If a shaker or fire comes along, they want to be able to cut off the buildings power to avoid unnecessary risk to the fire fighters.
Wierd. Here, the firefighters are just trained to pull the meter from the meter base to cut power.
Also, regarding the service line near a bedroom, that's something else that would be strange in these parts. The utility requires you to dig the trench and install the meter base, but has rules about where it can be. One of them is that the meter base must be a certain number of feet away from bedroom windows, for privacy reasons. 'guess they got too many complaints from customer alleging "peeping tom" meter readers.
I guess firefighters in Calif can not pull a meter. That's how they do it here in the sticks. Agree with a disconnect but think outside breaker panel is not good at all. With an outside disconnect what is to keep a bad guy from shutting off your power and disarming a non battery backup alarm?
New requirement here in rural Nawth Jawja - must have a master disconnect outside. It's for the firemen - so they don't have to pull a meter. Pulling a meter if it has any current flowing is dangerous - especially if it has an inductive load running - tends to arc pretty badly. Now, that all makes sense - I asked our county fire marshall if I could lock my main switch w/ a padlock - he said sure - they carry bolt cutters.Had an interesting discussion w/ marshall. They have no problem w/ installations where the service panel is on the wall immediately behind the meter. They can break down a door, walk in and flip off the main breakers. Their real problem is in newer, large houses where the service panel is in the basement at the end of a 50 ft run of multi 0 cable. Can't & don't want to have to find it. Our last house had that situation. Really didn't like having all that heavy cable run that wasn't armored or protected in a conduit.I asked for a waiver of the new requirement since I had started my work before the new code, and would have to remove approx 12 square feet of brick work to modify. Got it because the svc panel was immediately behind the meter & only 15 ft from an exterior door.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
That is basically what the electrical code requires.Either the panel mounted "immedately" after the power enters the building or an external disconnect. Immediately is not defined, but with a couple of feet is typical OK.but there are some allowed configuration that might confuse the fireman. For example you could run it in conduit 1/2 around the building before it enters and then it is not clear.
Bill,
I'm only a Mechanical Engineer, not an Electrical one, but as I recall, isn't there a maximum distance unfused conductors can be run inside the building? Unless were talking about a fused disconnect, how long can unfused conductors be run?
The code says "The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside or or building or structure or insdie NEAREST the point of entrance of the service conductors. So it depends on what nearest is. Some place it has to be into the back of the pannel. Other will allow 3 ft and other 6 ft to the panel.I could not find it. But I believe that you can use certain types of rated conduit and run that inside the building before the discount. But I am not sure.
> isn't there a maximum distance unfused conductors can be run inside the building?
It varies. Here in LA, the maximum is zero inches. The service has to run in conduit mounted to the exterior surface until it gets to the surface mounted meter and main breaker. Only thereafter are you allowed to let the electrons in out of the cold.
-- J.S.
Bill: The part I really don't like about the multi 0 cables run multi feet through the house/basement is that there is always a breaker of some sort on the outside wall that trips at whatever the rated current for the service is. You short out a 200 amp ckt and the arc will be explosive to get to 200 amps. Especially when driven by 240 volts. I found the one in my house & always stayed completely away from it w/ sharp things, like nails & screws. That d@#&*ed thing was nearly as thick as my wrist. (I'm pretty scrawny.) Here they are requiring that the disconnect be an integral part of the meter base, then the cables plunge directly through the exterior wall in a conduit of some sort.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Been around this bush a couple of times.Argument goes like this:
Assertion - don't place disconnects or panels outside because evil doers wil mess with it.Answer - Assuming no panels or disconnects are placed outside the meter remains. It is not difficult to pull a meter and kill the power. Risers and service drops are also vulnerable at minimum risk. Evil doers know this.Of course the criminal community also knows alarms, assuming the police are not camped out at you doorstep, are useless. Mostly they are a comfort item for the HO. Scaring only the young kids and rank amateurs. Who are also the easiest to stop with decent doors and windows.It is going to take a few minutes for the police to arrive. If the police, knowing most calls are false alarms, still answer them at all. Much longer for security services. Fact being that security guards working for $7 an hour have no motivation to respond quickly. Get there late and they fill out a report and get back to the coffee shop. Get there too early and they could run into a hopped up, unpredictable and possibly armed thief. Only the young, deluded and crazy relish the prospect of facing down a violent criminal for $7 and hour and minimum death and disability benefits.Most private security guards tend to order another latte and a danish when the call comes in about a possible breakin. Driving slow, the long way, helps also. Give the thiefs another fifteen minutes to do their job and get out. No confrontation. No danger.
Only the young, deluded and crazy relish the prospect of facing down a violent criminal for $7 and hour and minimum death and disability benefits.
And the authority only to say "Stop That! Or, or, I'll have to say "Stop That!" again . . . "
Now, if your burglar alarm has four legs and barks, te meter readers can get right picky, too. It's a very nice thing if you can possibly spot the meter so it faces a street-side fence. Putting a small, discrete step will make the meter readers very happy, too.
Which may go by the wayside soon, per MidSouth-Synergy (or however they're spelling it). They are advertising that they are using a remote reader. The meter read just drives in front of you house and waits for the reader to sync up with your meter; once the reading is taken, it's off to the next house. No dogs, no backyards, no misreading a 9 for a six, or an 8 for a 0.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Why do they do that? Seems to me it is an invitation for mischief makers.
I'm convinced it's a combination of a lack of utility planning and the combination of regulations on panel location.
The plan service or plan drafter has no idea there are rules for panels (or the panel is left clean off). The super on site gets asked (in the middle of the basement or foundation pour) "Where d'ya want the SD at?" He gets to guess, with the L&P boss looking over his shoulder.
Later on, the electrician gets to work out how best to get everything in under code (and under budget). The budget does not include 4/0 or subpanels, and there's just enough wall for the meter, a disconnetc, and the panel, right out here where it's the right height, and cant be covered up, and everything . . .
Around here, an exterior panel means one of two things: Structure was built as a rental; or the power was upgraded after the fact. I know if I was sharing an undivided yard behind a duplex, I'd likely have at least a cheap small lock on "my" panel--but that's me.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Here in MN they seem to require an outside disconnect anyway, and it's not that bad an idea. I'd be inclined to bite the bullet, put in a disconnect outside, then run conduit to a utility area for your panel.
I think you'd like your panel near the big loads so that you don't have to run your branch circuits so far. Country boy electricians put mine in the front of the house. Most of the loads are in the back of the house.
Dennis,
I'ld do as John suggests with one exception.
Take the circuit that powers the light that illuminates each subpanel and feed it from a different panel.
SamT
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I will check into a weatherproof disconnect tomorrow for outside the house and then feed to the main panel in a better part of the house. Any suggestions on wether to go with a separate (from the meter socket)disconnect panel outside or a combination socket/disconnect panel?
Thanks again!
Regards,
Dennis
Just curious--where's your electrical contractor in all this, and what does he have to say about the service placement?
If you're an owner-builder, get the electrical sub on board NOW.
Cliff