There’s a young gal that works with my wife, married a couple of years. They own some wooded land so wood is not a problem.
They’ve had woodstoves in the past but always cheap old ones that have had issues. In fact last winter when her house was filled up with smoke from a hole in the stove she vowed she was done with wood.
That was before heating oil climbed to over $3.00 a gallon so now they’re interested in wood stoves again. When I was first married we heated with wood for six years with the smallest Garrison woodstove they made. It worked great. I wish I still had it. It wasn’t cheap something like $800 or $900 back in 1980 but it was good. I believe Garrison is no longer made. I don’t think this couple know what it’s like to have a really good efficient wood stove.
What’s a good stove that won’t break the bank. Many in this area used to swear by Vermont castings, but I’m pretty sure they were bought out a few years back and I’ve heard quality has declined.
Replies
Yes Vermont Castings was bought out by a Canadian corporation but they're still produced here in Randolph and Bethel VT and I haven't heard about any loss of quality.
Most of their woodstoves, however, have catalytic burners to keep them within EPA standards.
I would recommend any of the EPA-certified woodstoves that do NOT use catalytic combusters, as they are better engineered if they can reach high efficiencies without the catalyst, which also adds to cost and maintenance.
Lopi makes some excellent steel stoves and I just installed a Regency stove with an efficiency rating of 74%, an optional ash drawer, and provision for direct coupling of outside combustion air.
None of these stoves are cheap. Figure on putting out $1200 for a good unit.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/28/2008 7:17 pm ET by Riversong
Robert,
What would you reccomend for a pellet burning stove?
Walter
What would you reccomend for a pellet burning stove?
I have no first hand knowledge of pellet stoves, but I tend to recommend against them because they require electricity to run and one of the big advantages of wood heat is that it can operate during power outages.
It certainly is cleaner feeding pellets than dragging cordwood through the house, but I don't know if there are reliable sources for wood pellets in all regions. Whereas cordwood is available almost everywhere, and can often be purchased locally.
I buy my cordwood from a local mill that processes 3,000 cord a year and dries it to 14% MC in a wood-chip powered kiln. It costs a little more than "seasoned" (whatever that means), but I get more BTUs for the buck, given that I'm not boiling off so much water, and there's far less creosote and condensate in the chimney.Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
We heat with a pellet stove. Heated for 23 years with wood. No comparison. Pellet stove does not radiate heat it only come out when the blower is on. Blower is on when there is fire. Blower is not noisy but adds to the white noise in house. Also won't work if electric is out. We cannot heat 100% with pellet like we did with wood.
On the plus side pellet stove is easier to clean and load. And is safer. Works with a t-stat
We are thinking of going back to wood in the future
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
On the plus side pellet stove is easier to clean and load. And is safer. Works with a t-stat
I use an old beater of a woodstove. Not very efficient, perhaps, but it has a thermostatic air intake damper so it's a set-it-and-forget-it stove. I generally feed it morning and evening and it keeps the heat at a relatively uniform level.
It also has a louvered stamped metal surround, so it's a low-clearance stove (except at the back/flue outlet side) and passively moves a lot of convective warm air. And it has an air-tight ash drawer, so I can clean the stove without the fire ever going out.
I just googled and found an old Sears unit that's identical to mine: http://livingindryden.org/images/renovation/oldFurnaceA.jpg
and a currently-available version at Northern Tool: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_47723_47723
View Image
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
You just posted a picture of my wood burner!
Wahtcha doing in my basement with your camera?;)
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Hi there fellow Mainer. Yesterday, I tried to start a thread on options for oil burner for my place in Maine and for some reason it never comes up when I log on. However a couple guys have found it. Would love to know what you think as you are so familiar with the subject.As an aside, I was caretaker in Harpswell ME for the wife of the orig. Burnham Co. didn't know they made household size boilers.thanks for your time
Don't get wrong, the stove is great. But after heating with wood for 20 plus is just is not the same. This is a high end stove made by Whitfield.
We paid $2300 for it so we will have to use it a few more years before we try to sell it. It make a great supplemental heat unit.
Of course here in SW Michigan you never know if you will need it. 50 degrees at 8AM today, forecast for 6 degrees by 8AM tomorrow. Just had a brief thunderstorm and heavy rain. Just gotta love Michigan.
Russell,
"Welcome to my world"
Of course here in SW Michigan you never know if you will need it. 50 degrees at 8AM today, forecast for 6 degrees by 8AM tomorrow. Just had a brief thunderstorm and heavy rain. Just gotta love Michigan.
That's what we got here in central IL. It was 51 when I woke up this morning and is 9 now. Wind gusts up to 50mph or so make it a REALLY fun 9 degrees. 1/4" ice on everything. Fun drive home from work, but fortunately the idiots weren't out. :)
I think we need about 2 feet of snow so that I can take a snow day from work.jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
My vote for Jotul.
We have an Oslo--2nd largest and it heats our 1.5 story bungalow. (see photo)
If you want a small one, this one's awesome:
http://www.jotul.com/en-us/wwwjotulus/Main-menu/Products/Wood/Wood-stoves/Jotul-F-602-CB/
We did a lot of research b4 buying ours 3 years ago. Vermont castings and Jotul both make beautiful stoves.
Lopi is another company to look at--not as pretty but they have a convective heating function that makes the stove a much better heater than one that simply radiates like ours.
P
For the landliners,,,
View ImageSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Now that's what I call central heating there.
Hey thanks!
I forget some can't open a bigger photo...
That's our Daughter Ruby and that photo was not staged.
Still she fights the two cats for that spot all winter. In the morning when she comes to the breakfast table, the entire right side of her face will be beet red from 'warming up.'
I have used a good dozen Regency stoves. They are simple, efficient, fairly inexpensive and so far trouble free. Definitely recommend them.
Englander and Century stoves are built like tanks...
Both offer EPA and Exempt stoves. EPA/Airtight stoves burn cleaner and have a little more of a learning curve than the exempt stoves. But you get more btu's into the living space and less up the chimney.
Check out hearth.com for way more info then you may ever want.
Garett
I will cast an additional vote for both Regency and Jotul
I have had enamel coated and plain cast iron Jotuls and the plain cast iron is much more durable. The enamel is bound to chip sooner or later but the cast iron will last forever.
The regency can be repainted with factory matched spray paint to make it look like new and the fire bricks are guaranteed for life. I just go to the shop we bought it from and they give me a brick kit if I need to replace damaged ones.
One of the most important features I would look for is an outdoor air intake if it is compatible with the stove.
Karl
http://www.midwestpool-spa.com/a_lopi_woodstoves.html#PATRIOT%20STOVEI got the LOPI Patriot stove.two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
I was looking for them at Lowes, there weren't any at my store, but was told they were 50% off if you could find one. Told me it was considered a seasonal item. Worth calling around if there are Lowes by you.
We've got this one and love it:
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/wood/wood%20stoves/1400.html
I'm planning to add their thermostatically controlled blower.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I have the Regencey . Been heating with it for 18 years. Door is still golden. Heating 2500 sq.ft. Might have to change the fire brick this year though. I use this stove all day everyday in nw wash. 75° inside and 29° outside tonight.
Scott, were you the one who directed me towards Napoleon a year or two back?
Let me know how you like the blower, I've thought of adding it. Did you set your stove up with its own air inlet (outside air piped to it)?
jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
>>>Scott, were you the one who directed me towards Napoleon a year or two back?Could have been, I've recommended this stove to a few people. Honestly, I didn't even know that they made a blower until a month ago. I'm currently scouring the Internet for opinions on the unit, but they're hard to find. In theory I think it's a great idea; the blower stands by while the stove warms up and smoke condensate (creosote) is kept to a minimum. Once the stove is hot and breathing well, the thermostat closes and the blower starts. Likewise, when the fuel is spent and the stove cools down, the blower stops.I see that they use a long squirrel cage fan, which should be quiet, but I'd like to have some informed advice. I'll post anything I learn to this thread.Scott.PS... Yes, I plumbed in a exterior air source, but I'm not convinced that it makes a difference. There is a very good article on the pros/cons of exterior air at http://www.woodheat.orgAlways remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I've often thought a thermostat controlled fan would be a good idea. Have that sucker kick on at the top of the temp curve and then back off when it cools down a bit.
I've got double-wall chimney pipe, so I put my stove thermometer on the top grating. I don't know if that gives me a comparable temp as a single-wall stove pipe would, but it helps me keep things regulated. When I've got her burning good, it doesn't take long to get 'er up to 650-ish. Then I just try to hold it between 400-650.
I'd be interested to know what your heating characteristics are? How many sq ft would you guesstimate your stove will heat? How well insulated would you consider your house? I've got mine installed in my project house. While the house is dried in, it isn't fully insulated and I don't have any ceilings to slow the heat from making its merry way into the attic and out the ridge vents. But still, if you give me a few hours, I can pump enough heat into the nearly 1600 sq ft house to raise the temp 20-30 degrees (assuming it isn't too windy and we're not going in and out a lot).
jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
>>>While the house is dried in, it isn't fully insulated and I don't have any ceilings to slow the heat from making its merry way into the attic and out the ridge vents.Hahahaha.... sounds exactly like the stage we were at two years ago. I bet the stove adds a cheerful and welcome bit of heat while you build.This stove heats two floors, the first is 1400 sq. ft. and the upper is around 1000 sq. ft. (vaulted living room ceiling makes it smaller). Everyone will tell you (and they're right) that wood stoves are essentially space heaters and it's hard to distribute the heat beyond it's immediate area. We put two large return air intakes at the ridge where heat gathers. It does get distributed, but not to the extent that you might hope.Our house is all 2X6 with R20 FG. Ceilings are vaulted with R28. There's lots of glass so I'd say we are in the 'medium' range of heat retention.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Hahahaha.... sounds exactly like the stage we were at two years ago. I bet the stove adds a cheerful and welcome bit of heat while you build.
Sure beats standing over a stinking kerosene heater :)
I've been eager to get the drywall in before warm weather to see how well the stove heats the house, but as you pointed out, that is a double-edged sword in that while it will be much easier to keep the heat in, it will be harder to distribute it througout the house.
I've been thinking of having a cold air return put somewhere above the stove, but haven't discussed it with the HVAC guys yet. I wasn't sure if that would mess up the stove draft when the furnace fan kicked on (I don't have my stove drawing outside air).
But based on your numbers, sounds like it will be putting out plenty of BTU's.jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
>>>I've been thinking of having a cold air return put somewhere above the stove, but haven't discussed it with the HVAC guys yet.That was exactly our original plan, but because of joist direction and a log post in the corner behind the stove, it wouldn't work.I don't think you'll have a problem with negative pressure; certainly not once the stove is going. I only notice slight pressure issues when the weather is relatively warm, the stove is just starting, and there are more than one exhaust fans going in the house.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Well, before installing ANYTHING that burns solid fuel, clean the damn chimney! That is the main reason the house filled with smoke
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Quadra-Fire. Clean burning, low maintenance. I've had mine for 15 years. Before that I had a Vermont Castings. No comparison.
We have a Quadrafire 3100 and love it. It will keep our 700 sq. ft. cathedral ceiling great room at 72 degrees all day with conservative wood use. Outdoor air intake is a must.
Like Grott says, check out Hearth.com It's a great site for anything to do with wood heating. You can read past ratings of various stoves as well as helpful articles on all aspects of wood burning. The two most important questions you'll need to ask are: how big an area do I want to heat and will the wood stove be my primary source of heat or will I just use it occasionally. Those questions will affect your choice of a wood stove.
In general, Englander, Lopi, Napoleon, and a few other stoves get high marks in the ratings for mediun priced stoves. Jotul, Quadra-fire, Morso, HearthStone, and Woodstock are also excellent stoves but considerably more expensive. The jury is still out, at least at Hearth.com, about the newer non-cat stoves from Vermont Castings. Take a look at recent threads in the Forum section about the "Everburn" system and about "damage control" at Vermont Castings.
Finally, if you believe the information provided at Hearth.com, don't be tempted by a cheap Vogelzang imported stove. They are simply refered to as the "death-box" in Forum discussions.
Chip
This is my second winter with a Napoleon 1400 pedistal. EPA approved without a catalytic. It has been a reliable stove and I really like the ash drawer (first one I've ever owned with an ash drawer). This particular model really shines in cases where you need reduced setbacks. Several sides of the stove are shielded. On the down side, I think you get less overall heat with all that shielding, so it is a trade off. Just depends on their setup. IIRC, it was around $900.
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/wood_all.html
When I was asking about stoves a while back, Jotul was popular as well as the soapstone folks
http://www.woodstove.com/
But they were a hair out of my price range.
jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
Edited 1/29/2008 4:37 pm by JohnT8
You may have noticed by now that I didn't answer this query directly.
I knew from the get-go that this would result in 20-30 replies minimum and almost every one of them naming a different brand of stove and basically saying, I am happy with my Brand XYZ....
It's a bit like saying, "What kind of a car should my mother in law drive?"
I used to have a wood stove store and sold/installed several hundred of them.
The thing she needs to be doing is to make a list first of what FEATURES she needs and/or wants prioritized. Then she goes shopping for a stove. Other wise she will be easily swayed by salesmen and advertising
some options have been mentioned here.
I think first on the list is placement in the home. How much safe space is available? What kind of chimney does she have or can be installed. Location and space may dictate something close to zero clearance. Or an unfinished basement install can allow for something ugly that can really belt out the heat.
How tight is the home? Will she benefit from outside air supply?
What is their lifestyle? An ash drawer can simplify cleanup. Are they gone a lot - then they want a thermostatic control.
some are all cast iron and others have firebrick lining, each with advantages for different settings.
Is it important to have the aesthetic benefit of a glass door to view the fire?
Does her community or her personal ethics dictate that she have a catalytic converter in the exhaust?
Once she knows the answers to these and probably more questions then she is equipped to go shopping.
I had too many other issues going on to get down to details earlier. Sorry
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I will cast my vote for Pacific Energy. I use mine as my primary heat source and it is great. It has been burning almost non-stop since November. It is well made as far as I can tell, .
I will second the vote for Pacific Energy. I will add to that the endorsement of at least a dozen people I know that also have that brand.
great non-catalytic stove with a good variety of aesthetic options. Good burn times and ample heat once you take a little time to get used to the draft settings that work for your application.
I don't want to hijack this post so if need be I'll start another. That said I really need some advice. Just bought my first house came with a " Heat-A-Later" fireplace (useless as you probably know). Very cool house built around this fireplace and I need to make it actually heat the house. So my question is what would be a stove that is dramatic to be the focal point of the whole house with lots of glass yet throws some heat?
I can recommend the Regency I2400 insert. It looks good and throws out a lot of heat. Mine is equipped with the blower assembly which has a thermostat on it. http://www.regency-fire.com/Wood/Inserts/I2400/index.phpIf I get a chance I will post a pic of mine in the next couple of days(my computers motherboard got fried yesterday morning during a power outage).Martin
I have a vermont castings intrepid stove and love it, definitely get a top loading unit, front loaders suck, open the door and all the good hot ashes fall out, top loader just drop more wood in and go. I needed parts for the stove and even though, 12 years old still can get rebuilding parts
We had a Vermont Castings (Intrepid) stove at my last house. The previous owner had it installed, and replaced the catalytic element after about 3 years. He gave the old one to me, and said it looked pretty much the same as it did when it went in, but he didn't want to "take any chances." Fair enough.
The catalytic element is basically a ceramic honeycomb the size and shape of a small brick. When the catalytic diverter is switched (after the firebox gets hot) the flue gases are redirected so that they first flow down the back of the firebox and through this hot ceramic honeycomb. The ceramic has a high heat capacity, and after it gets hot it causes the combustion of some of the fine particles that didn't quite get burned up initially. The gases go out the back side of the honeycomb and rejoin the flue pipe.
We used the stove for 7 years without changing the catalytic element. I took it out every few months during the heating season (Oct - May) and gently vacuumed it off, as well as vacuuming out the catalytic chamber. I was going to replace it, so I went down to talk to the guy at the local distributor. He said that the function of the element is solely based on its geometry. If the structure is still intact, it's still working. He said that folks degrade them burning a lot of cardboard and paper: the half-burned ashes will deposit onto the honeycomb and abrade the ceramic down quicker.
I burned lots of kiln dried hardwood (you can only make so many cutting boards out of your screw-ups and scraps before you're swimming in them...) and well dried hem/fir, madrone and maple. So, I might not be a typical example.
I liked the stove a lot, and I have to say that the catalytic element cost was not an issue. After 7 years of use, I sold the house with the same two perfectly functional catalytic elements I had when I bought it.
The firelight flickering through the glass was nice.
I suspect you could find an older VC stove that's used?
-t
You appear to be the type that does well with a catalytic type stove. You understand how it works, that it needs care and monitoring, and that you aren't supposed to burn anything but clean, dry wood in it.
Folks who aren't so 'aware' shouldn't get a catalytic type unit.
Crusty old chimney sweep, stove guy visited our house when we were looking at stoves and was selling us on a non-catalytic Lopi model.
"Ya could burn Cat's n' Dogs in there and not have no problems!" he said.
I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, but my vote is a soapstone stove from Hearthstone hands down. Absolutely wonderful consistent heat, easy to work with and light, and beautiful to boot.
Ott
I bought a Napoleon 1900. I got the blower and the thermostatic control too.My thermostatic control keeps the blower from coming on to early. But it never seems to shut the blower off.When I burn wood that's been aged a year and real dry, I can't keep the temperature down. Close the damper to the minimum and the exhaust gas thermometer still heads up toward the red line. My goal was to be able to load up the stove, go to bed, and have a slow burn late into the night.Load it with dry wood; it just takes off.I plumbed mine with external combustion air. I think it reduces the draftiness in the house.The instruction manual was poor. The switch on the blower was defective out of the box.Wood is my main source of heat. I've been heating with wood for 10 years. I'm disappointed with my $1500 Napoleon.Big Macs - 99 cents
There is such a thing as TOO dry wood, I had that happen a few times..I leave it out in the rain, and no longer "Fully" seasoned to the point of bone dry.
And yes, I burn real hot, and clean my flue often..and nothing but fine white dust is in there.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Ah yes one of the rarer forms of what I call "PUNKY".
No, not even punky, that to me means headed for rot or is dry rot.
I mean wood that had been seasoned in a barn or such for a long time, say 2-3 yrs. Sound wood, such as locust , Osage, Sycamore.
The reason I say this is that is exactly what I have been burning, and it is TOO dry for a moderate burn, mixing in some less than ideal dryness helps tone it down.
I worked at a sawmill with a kiln onsite, and often brought home truckloads of kiln dried oak, cherry and what have you in plank end trimmings..and about melted a Franklin type stove ( hey, I was 17, didn't know as much as I do now..LOL)
Of course every stove has it's idiosyncrasies, and currently I am using a homade barrel stove, and huge amounts of wood, I need max heat, not pretty. But that will be changing soon when I get the Masonry heater constructed.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
You may well be right about the wood being too dry. Generally I'm burning oak or hickory. Usually I don't have wood that has been aged a year. Generally I go out and cut some dead wood. I load it on to the porch and burn it that day or within the next three.My Napoleon is a little over a year old. It's been in service a little less than a year.If I want heat all night, I have to get up and load it two or three times depending on the exterior temperature and wind.BTW, my old model was cast iron. This fire brick is slow to heat up.My roof is seven or eight in twelve. I don't like having to get out my fall protection gear and sweep the chimney.The Napoleon literature claimed a twelve hour burn time. It's still going after four and after twelve hours. It's just real fine coals. Getting it to burn after four hours is very similar to lighting a new fire.Big Macs - 99 cents
>>>My thermostatic control keeps the blower from coming on to early. But it never seems to shut the blower off.I'd like to hear more about that, seeing as I'm considering that unit for next Winter. It seems to me that the thermostat should cycle the blower on and off according to the firebox temperature. Have you made a warranty claim?Sphere's point about "too dry wood" is a good one. Manufacturers of EPA stoves tread a very fine line. They need to allow enough air for moderately dry wood to burn efficiently while somehow controlling úber-dry wood that wants to burn like dynamite.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I'm talking about part number EP-36, Thermostatic Sensor Control. I bought this and EP62-1, Fan Kit.I bought the stove at a farm store about 80 miles from here, Buchheights. I never bothered with a warranty claim. I installed the stove myself.I don't know if it would be an issue but the following clause is in the fine print: The wood fireplace must be installed by an authorized service technician or contractor.I find reaching down and around the stove to be annoying too. I'm thinking of rewiring the outlet to be controlled by a wall switch.The fan does increase the heat realized from the stove a tremendous amount. If I come into a cold house, get the fire rolling, and switch on the fan, I can bring the temperature pretty fast.The fan is not real quiet. But I can sleep with it going moderately high. I'd say it's fifteen feet from the head of the master bed to the wood stove.Big Macs - 99 cents
Have you tried calling the Napoleon folks and seeing if they had a suggestion? You don't have a bad door seal or such, do you? IIRC, mine is a 1400p. If I'm burning oak & hickory, yes it gets hot, but I can usually build up the coals and turn the damper down. I've had enough coals 20-24 hrs later that I didn't have to use a match to restart the fire.
My current load of wood isn't oak & hickory and doesn't burn as well. Mostly soft maple and some ash. Burns fairly quick and there isn't usually anything left 24 hrs later (except ash).
jt8
"A free society is a place where it's safe to be unpopular."-- Adlai Stevenson
Edited 2/25/2008 5:11 pm by JohnT8
You know I have this nice tall chimney. My stove sits over a ventilated crawl space. I cut the prescribed 4 inch diameter hole in the floor. When that fire gets going, it just really draws some air.If I only had the four inch hole on the back of the stove, and it had to draw combustion air through the house, it would have a much harder time getting sufficient oxygen. But my stove, installed as recommended, loaded with dry wood as recommended, is turbo-charged.Cold air from under the house, is pushing from the bottom, hot exhaust gas from the fire is pulling from the top. It's off to the races.The instructions for my old stove recommended a flue damper. It's a 6 inch diameter piece of cast iron with a lever outside the flue pipe. Napoleon did not recommend installing one. Well it was in the old pipe when I put in the new stove, so I just left it there.With the old stove, which leaked at the door, it was necessary to engage the damper when the wind blew. The wind really sucks air out of the chimney. The flue damper helps this stove too. Napoleon never mentions a second damper.What I think I'd like to have is a sensor in the exhaust plume which could tell the opening under the stove to open and close as needed. Sort of like the pupil in ones eye gets small in bright light. When the house temperature was comfortable, and the flue temperature was higher than 220 F, the damper would automatically restrict the amount of fresh air allowed in.I don't know if you have one but I have a magnetic thermometer on the exhaust that shows me what temperature my exhaust gas is. It claims that when the exhaust gas is less than 220, the stove is creating sludge in the exhaust.But my current setup requires me to get up an twiddle things all night. I'm more likely to click on the electric blanket and let the fire go out.There is a big difference between drawing combustion air from inside a house and freely drawing combustion air from outside the house. IMO, Napoleon's damper engineering is not up to the challenge. YMMVI have a hard time with breaking the rules. It seems in my life I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't.Big Macs - 99 cents
It does sound like you are overdrafting. It also is GOOD that you have the pipe damper, use it. Close that puppy down almost all the way for a longer burn. Don't get excited about the temp ranges on the thrmometer, they are just guides.
When at the lower temps you are not creating sludge unless that is the highest you ever get it to go or do so for a really long time.
Can you add the same type of slide shut off as a dust collector system uses on the 4" Fresh air pipe? They make em in cast alum for 4" metal pipe.
You can't have the best of both ( hot , hot with out feeding, AND long burn time) unless you are burning hard coal..IMO.
Keep fiddling with it till you find an acceptable combination of fuel to air to comfort mix..it takes time and few fires to get it ironed out...and wind /pressure does affect draw. Is the spark arrestor cap anything odd? They can affect the draw too.
If anything I over fire my set up, I have few parts that can warp, but I have had that 55 gallon drum glowing red and my flue temps were still just barely in the "Overfire" range. If you wood is good stuff, underfireing shouldn't be an issue, what matters is the completness of combustion. A smoulder is a bad thing, heavy smoke out side a bad thing..After initial take off of a fresh load..my stack release is clear heat waves...no smoke.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Have you thought about adding a barometric damper to the flue pipe to automatically adjust for the "extra pull" of the draft on those cold windy nights? The Baro will allow air to be pulled from the room rather than through the fire so the fire won't run away from you due to the extra combustion air.
My copy of "The Complete book of Heating with Wood" by Larry Gray, copy write 1974, doesn't mention barometric dampers. I've never seen one in the farm or hearth store.Google returns 10 pages of hits. Oh boy, high tech gadgetry!!! I love it like the smell of napalm in the morning.BTW, I can't seem to sleep un-interrupted past 2:30 a.m. So tweaking the fire happens anyway.As far now, I'm off surfing. Thank you very much.Big Macs - 99 cents
Edited 2/26/2008 4:52 pm by daFarmerDave
I have a coal stove, but I burn wood in it when I don't need the long burn time of coal. The baro helps keep the coal fire burning evenly for me, I suspect it would do the same for wood. Although you do need to keep a hotter stack temp than I do because of creosote concerns. That may just mean that you need to adjust the weight on your baro to accommodate for that. I use a magnetic thermometer on my flue about 18" above the stove and it generally reads 225*F (for a wood fire it should be higher). If it gets higher than that then I am burning through my coal too quickly and won't get the 12 hour burn that I look for. Without the baro, conditions outside may lead to pulling in way too much air through the combustion air port and burning the coal too hot & too fast. Each stove and installation has its own personality so you will have to experiment a little to get it correctly set. A manometer is also a useful gadget to have (Dwyer Mark II ~$35 from Grainger) so you can actually "see" what your draft is reading and adjust the baro appropriately. Have fun with this little science project!
I don't think Baro's are legal on wood stoves, but I may be wrong.
Seems they are OK on OIl and Coal, because they don't create creosote. The problem is, IF you have a chimney fire due to creosote accumulation, you can't shut the air supply off and it can keep going unimpeded.Matter of fact, I did have one on my coal stove, but the amt. of wood used was minimal and the stack stayed really clean burning coal.Yes they do help keep coal reaching meltdown, but "Could" lower the flue temp/draft enough to Cause creosoting.I'd not do it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I believe these people have a handle on the problem:"... Second, it is a fact that today's EPA approved woodstoves aren't as adjustable as many of the pre-EPA airtights. In years past, we've had experience with woodstoves that had air intake controls which could be closed all the way, resulting in a smoldering fire, excessive creosote formation in the flue, and a thick plume of black smoke belching into the atmosphere. EPA approved woodstoves are designed so the fire can't be smoldered: even when the air control is closed as far as it will go, the fire still gets enough air to burn efficiently.That said, some EPA approved woodstoves are less responsive than others, and your complaint is one we hear frequently from owners of non-catalytic woodstoves with extra-large fireboxes like your 3.1 cubic-foot Liberty: lack of controllability, resulting in hot, short duration burns and the need for frequent refueling. We believe the problem most likely arises from XL-firebox stoves needing an air control that remains particularly wide open even when turned down as far as it will go, to keep the larger load burning briskly enough so the stove will meet EPA emissions requirements. Pacific Energy has addressed this problem by incorporating the unique EBT technology to their XL models, but that patented technique is not available to other manufacturers.When you've got a chimney flue with an extra-strong updraft attached to a stove with an air control that doesn't turn down far enough to compensate, it can be very hard to control your rate of burn. If your Liberty is raging out of control, and you're unwilling to trade it in on a more controllable model, the only remaining avenue of relief is to attempt to reduce your chimney updraft. ..."http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoxdraft.htmI don't want to be violating their copy write restrictions. They go on to discuss manual dampers, barometric dampers and their proprietary extended burn time technology.My contention is that my Napoleon is as they state, less responsive. Maybe it is less responsive than others, maybe not. IIRC, my Napoleon was $1500 and the Jotul I liked was $3200. I never heard of Pacific Summit before today.So if the question is "Which brand woodstove?", the answer could be "That's an important question."Big Macs - 99 cents
Interesting . Design a problem around another problem.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
My problem matches the problem Pacific Energy describes.My stove matches the stove Pacific Energy describes.My work around matches a work around recommend by the web site.I have this problem because Napoleon, Wolf Steel, knew what I wanted, and advertised the 1900 as such a product. I believe Wolf Steel knows their stove is a fraud. Do you think I have a legitimate beef?BTW, my respect for my neighbors north of the border has slipped, too.Big Macs - 99 cents
Sounds like you have had a rough time but lets not paint all Canucks with the same brush. The company you mention,Pacific energy, is a Canadian company as well and have fantastic wood stoves (I have a PE spectrum Classic that heats as good as it looks). Might be worth going back to where you bought your current stove and seeing if they are willing to stand behind what they sell. $1500 is alot of money to get something that just doesn't work as advertised. Good Luck.
Netflix brought me a copy of "Bowling for Columbine" just last week. I noticed Micheal Moore called it something like a "Dog Eat Dog Filmworks" production. In the movie he paints Canucks with a splendid brush. We Americans know Canucks take pot shots at us.I suppose I can understand why people could find "USA Today" calling itself the nation's newspaper would be offensive.I just wanted to see if you were paying attention. I remember how the American hostages got home from Iran. I know who landed on the beaches with us on D-Day.I think Pacific Energy's 30 day money back guarantee looks real good now. But then again I bought this Napoleon on sale and did not get it installed in thirty days. When I win the lottery, the Napoleon is going on Craigslist.Big Macs - 99 cents
I certainly wasn't responding because I was an offended Canadian. Pot shots are welcome. Those who take themselves too seriously to absorb some ribbing from time to time will have to grow a thicker skin. My comment was more to do with the stove issue and a quality Canadian made alternative to what obviously has turned out to be a disappointing purchase for you.When you win the lottery send the old stove back to the manufacturer packaged in the new stoves box.....perhaps a burning paper bag full of dog donations inside would be fitting, of course with the burn time issue you have the fire would be out long before they get it.....
It having been made in Canada definitely gave me confidence in buying it. There was an old thread around here that claimed stove pipe that meets Canadian standards is better.I felt good about keeping money in the North American Free trade zone. It used to be that the dollar went further in Canada. But I guess you can not fool all the people all the time. :)Big Macs - 99 cents
Are you still under warrenty? I would call the company if I wasn't happy.
jt8
"Worry never robs tomorrow of its sorrow, it only saps today of its joy" --Leo F. Buscaglia
We've got a catalytic Vermont Castings Encore, and love it. We get very long burn times out of it. All night burns are no big deal with this stove. I think that the main downside of having a catalytic stove is trying to explain to friends, guests, and housesitters on how to use it correctly. There is a learning curve, and the inexperienced users always seem to get it wrong. There are good reasons to own catalytic stoves and good reasons not to, so do some research on this aspect before making any decision.
My vote would be for heavier, higher mass units like cast iron construction, soapstone detailed units such as Woodstock (I think). Second choice would be just cast iron units such as Jotul or Vermont Castings. Last choice would be a welded steel type, which there are lots of brands available.
The biggest thing to look for with any type that you will be using a lot, is something that is airtight and EPA certified. Anything else is just a "decorative" stove and will waste your wood.
As far as the house filling up with smoke, my guess would be that the stove or chimney was never set up right in the first place. A good stove with a proper installation should never ever have that problem unless the chimney gets clogged.
I have a Vermont Reliant catalytic that was in this house when I moved in, and I have pretty much proved that I am not smart enough to run it.
I have resorted to not using the catalytic setting, and burning with the damper open to get the fire to stay lit. Also have to open the ash drawer door a bit to get the fire started.
Got any tips?you only get one chance to do it right the first time
****"I have a Vermont Reliant catalytic that was in this house when I moved in, and I have pretty much proved that I am not smart enough to run it.
I have resorted to not using the catalytic setting, and burning with the damper open to get the fire to stay lit. Also have to open the ash drawer door a bit to get the fire started.
Got any tips?"****Opening the ash drawer a bit to get started works as long as you don't leave it unattended. It can save lots of time getting things going. But if you get distracted the risk of overheating the stove and chimney is great. Only you can assess your willingness to take this risk.My guess as to your problems would be:1. poor draft. This could be due to improper installation, dirty/blocked chimney, not tall enough chimney, tight house with inadequate makeup air.2. bad catalyst. Have you opened up the stove and checked the catalyst?. It could be blocked with ash or disintegrating.3. damaged stove. If the stove was ever overheated, the fireback, damper assembly and the secondary burn chamber may be warped or damaged.4. your air intake door is not opening enough, maybe the thermal spring needs to be replaced.Once you have determined that these are not the problems...Get a thermometer for you stovepipe.Start a fire with the catalyst damper open, and the intake air lever fully open. Once the fire gets going and the stove pipe is above around 500 degrees. Close the catalyst damper. Sometimes, if you didn't get things hot enough in the beginning, you need to repeat the process.After a couple hours, and maybe more wood has been added you may need to throttle down the intake air. Every couple hours, open the catalyst damper, drop in another log, close the damper.If you really can't get to this point your wood is probably too damp. Try it with your scrap kiln dried lumber and then if it still doesn't work, you don't have enough draft with your chimney.FYI. Damaged catalytic stoves are common. I bought mine pretty cheaply that way, and bought $600 worth in parts to refurbish it myself. New it would have cost $2200. I invested $1100 total + a few hours of my time. Since all of the important parts are new, it operates like it was new.
Thanks for the reply. Everything on the stove seems to be OK. I don't know how to check the thermal spring, but a visual inspection at the back/bottom of the unit seems to show a clear unobstructed opening.
I believe that the draft is not what it should be. Whoever put it in used a reducer on the stove to go from 8" to 6", it goes up and elbows over and back up (to miss a rafter) and then straight out. It looks like it is plenty high above the roof line.
I have been able to run in catalytic mode, but only after building up a substancial bed of coals. Is that normal?
How do I test for adequate draft?you only get one chance to do it right the first time
What kind of chimney, metal or clay? Is it insulated at any point? Too much exposed chimney, especially metal, on the outside could be cooling your flue gasses off too much. It's interesting that your stove has an 8" output on it. I thought only the Defiant and Encore models used the big pipe. Most other models and brands use a 6" pipe.
My stove pipe makes a 90 degree bend and goes horizontally into an 8" square clay lined chimney where it gets to bend at 90 degrees again. These bends have not caused a draft issue for me. The metal pipe goes up about 5 feet, then over about 3 feet, and the masonry goes up about 25 feet after that.
The instructions specifically mention getting a bed of coals going before starting the catalyst. Perhaps this is more important with your model stove than it is with mine. If you are really using your stove for much of your heating needs this shouldn't be much of an issue. The idea is to keep the stove hot continuously and not need to start over more than once a day. Sometimes I've gone a week without having to fully start over. Most days the stove is still at operating temperature in the morning and just needs more wood.
You can check the thermal spring by checking that opening when the stove is warm. If you find that it is starting to close the door when the stove is not hot enough it is not working right. Fortunately it is a cheap fix. I think that it is less than $20. It is accessed inside the stove near the air adjustment handle.
The other thing to check is the thermostat for the catalyst. I think that there is a removable panel were the catalyst gets it's air. If not you have to access it from inside the stove with the catalyst removed. This part would likely fail at a young age since it has a probe that goes in by the catalyst where is gets extremely hot. This part is also cheap. Not knowing the history of the stove I would probably replace both anyway and hope that it helps.
You can measure your draft with a manometer (Dwyer Mark II from Grainger is about $35)
Did you see the barometric damper goes wide open in a chimney fire? Did you see it wastes a lot of heat?OTH, the manual damper adds to the creosote load when you don't open it in time.You add either at your own risk.Now I have one more reason add a Programmable Logic Controller to the homestead.Big Macs - 99 cents