Hi all,
I’m building a playscape for my kids, want to avoid 1) spending thousands 2) pressure treated 3) rot. So I’ve been looking for a source for white cedar lumber — square 4×4 posts, 2×6 joists, etc. — because white cedar reportedly doesn’t splinter as much and doesn’t need much treatment. Have had no success getting local lumberyards to special order, they don’t carry it. No luck finding a retailer on the net. No local mills cut it either.
I’m now thinking of alternatives, like encasing pine in some impervious plastic layer (if this exists??); or buying cedar fence posts (need the length though — 10’+); or maybe the non-wood stuff people use for decking, but it doesn’t look like it has any strength…? I’m focused more on the posts — most of the rest will be under a roof, the decking will be red cedar, which is plenty available.
suggestions?
Replies
Have you tried Boston Cedar. http://www.bostoncedar.com they may be able to either help you or point you in the right direction.
SJ
Why not use pressure treated?
Ipe (expensive) and black locust are other options.
A play ground is the LAST place you want PT.
Where are you located that cedar is unavailable? It's practically a weed tree here.Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 4/22/2002 6:29:17 PM ET by piffin
"A play ground is the LAST place you want PT."
Why?
The reason you don't want pressure treated playground equipment is because arsenic, which is a primary ingredient in CCA pressure treated wood, is one of the most potent of carcinogens. Kids playing on CCA treated equipment get measurable amounts on their hands and, being kids, put their hands in their mouths. While the kids don't drop dead on the spot from arsenic poisoning, they probably do have an elevated risk of getting certain types of cancer during their lifetime. In areas of the world where arsenic is in fairly high concentration in the soil, studies have shown that people in those areas have a much higher incidence of certain types of cancer (don't recall any longer just what types they are, however.)
There are other types of pressure treatment for wood that does not contain aresenic. One type is called ACQ and there are others. It has been hard to obtain, however the new push to get rid of CCA may mean that it will become more readily available. I don't know just how thoroughly these have been studied, but the claims are that they are environmentally benign.
Casey
First you say that you should not use PT, then you said that you can use PT.
Which is it?
Ask least you mentioned that there are differnent process used for treating the wood.
The other people did not.
There are several different pressure treating processes for preserving lumber. CCA has been the most common and the most controversial. The CCA stands for chromium, copper, and arsenic. The copper and arsenic work to deter or kill fungus and insects while the chromium supposedly serves to bind the copper and arsenic to the wood. Recent studies, particularly in playgrounds in Florida, have shown that some arsenic does leach out from the wood and can be detected on the hands of children playing on CCA treated playground equipment. The EPA has called for a voluntary ban on CCA treated lumber.
Creosote is a coal-tar derivitave and was used to treat railroad ties and utility poles. Everyone agrees that it is pretty potent stuff and should not be treated lightly.
ACZA is another arsenic based treatment that I have not seen mentioned much. I assume it will be treated pretty much like CCA treated lumber.
The treatment that I mentioned earlier is ACQ which is described on one web site as:
ACQ:This is an arsenic free preservative. ACQ lumber combines tan Alkaline, Quat and 100% recycled copper to create an environmentally advanced wood preservative. This is a new preservative that is considered safe for playground equipment and garden areas.
Another process that I have seen very little about is:
CBA :Wolman¯ E preservative (CBA) is a preservative that contains copper, boron and azole. The fact that it is arsenic free, makes it easier on the environment. It provides against decay and termites. This lumber is great for patio, walkways and decks.
There is an article from the LA Times on pressure treating at:
Times article on Pressure Treated Lumber
The two descriptions are from:
http://www.redwoodemp.com/products_treated.htm
For more info on ACQ http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/news/breaking_news/3122037.htm http://www.ecoproducts.com/Building_Division/BuildingSupplies/acq.htm
Exactly
As I said in my very first message, what is wrong with PT.
And as you responded NONE. It is not the pressure treating that is the problem.
It is only certain chemicals.
Right, it is the arsenic in currently available pressure treated lumber that causes the major problem. Unfortunately, it has been nearly impossible to get pressure treated lumber that did not contain arsenic. If you go to a lumber yard and ask for pressure treated lumber, you would have almost exclusively gotten CCA pressure treated. That may change, but we will have to see.
Not too much longer ......... http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/citizens/cca_transition.htm#bkmrk3
D####### m,,,there has never been a single case of anyone being hurt by CCA,,they could not prove it, so they went emotion and media,,and got it stopped,,,agreed,,it has something in it that could cause harm,,but never has,,ghessssss I am so sick of this,,,so the out come is for me,,,the new preasure treated is so bad you have to use SS on everything that goes into it,,the nails are like 3 times as much, and they dont even have ring shank made yet,,and the lumbaer is going to cost 2 3 times a much, they are going to give them self a big raise like enron,,and here we are the contractors,,,trying to make a living I am really mad at this S###!!!!!!!!! John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
john; check out
http://www.treatedwood.com/products/installationfaq.html#1
basicly it says; hot dipped or ss.
I put up a mile of horse fence and used csi presrve plus. The pictures of the fence are there on that site somewhere.Old Pro, not quite old, not quite pro, but closer every day on both...
Right, John, just like they can't prove that anyone died from smoking cigarettes, or that HIV really causes AIDS, or that eating beef really gave those Brits mad cow disease. Just that there is really strong circumstantial evidence (maybe even stronger than circumstancial - see the National Academy of Sciences article: http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/(ByDocID)/C2F3467F548F460C85256AC4006D092A?OpenDocument ) that ingesting arsenic causes cancer. Of course you could follow the course of the fellow in the '70s that went around drinking water laced with DDT to show that it caused no harm and go around drinking water laced with a sub-lethal dose of arsenic just to show you won't drop over dead. Of course there is the chance that sometime later in life you will develop a bladder or lung cancer as a result of ingesting the arsenic. While the 1 in 1000 to 7 in 1000 chance of developing lung or bladder cancer from ingesting arsenic over a period of time is less than your chance of getting killed in a traffic accident, it is still a lot higher than zero. So maybe only a dozen or so people in a large city will get lung or bladder cancer from having played on CCA treated playground equipment in their youth, do we really need to use CCA when we have alternatives? So, what do you have against ACQ? And I would say that getting cancer some years down the road really does hurt people...
ok casey ,I see your point,there is a chance of someone someplace some time geting something some how some way that is somehow realated to CCA...like dringing 8 clases of water a day,,,I understand,,but when push comes to shuve you are saying I should just buck up and take another hit in my business right?ghessssss its not like your making your living at this,,,in a small way I agree,,I am suprised they dident go after the plants retort,,they are really nasty,,,and the tear out decks, and I do a lot of them because CCA pine goes like warped crazy in the sun when they use it on top,its great for framing away from the sun, so it goes to the land fill, or I stack it up at the shop and wait for a job to use it on,,Just venting a little here,,no matter what the green pease folks do,,all they want is to stop it,,,I understand that,,,,John Hyatt
Well thank you all for good edifying conversation! I will look for red cedar square posts (the round knobby ones are certainly common here) or 2x6s bolted. Sure wish i could encase the posts and all the other lumber in some kind of plasticated paint like the ChildLife people do.
Anybody have suggestions for where to go for playscape plans? Other than catalogues, which have been very useful.
It's been a pleasure checkking back for more data over the past few days. THANK YOU!
David
You Know Casey,,,all the figures you put up just make me madder,,,like the spoted owl thing when I was in the nw,,you have all the money to stop things and no anwsers what to do next,,you just sit back in kinda a pease love thing and sleep real good knowing you have done the right thing,,kids geting hurt from playing on CCA,,give me a break,that is so lame,,,,It just makes me mad that people like you can step in with money and power stop me from making a living, and go home to your white wine,watching the sunset on your deck,,framed in what,,like rice paper???
Ipe is not costly,,or not yet,,ghesssss you can get it dilevered to your door for.75 lin ft for 1x4,,,it is the best buy going right now,,CCA is a thing of the past in a year or so,,it dident hurt anyone,,its just a green thing,,,John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
So what exactly is this Ipe, and who do I contact to get it delivered to my door for .75/foot?
Hey Man,,Ipe is a tree,,,,,,I get it from a number of folks,,depending on a lot of things,,,www.ipe-wood.com is the best so far,,,shiping and tax is another thing work your own deal with that,,but they are selling 1x4 for .75 right now,,,lets go get em,,,John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
You could use redwood or white oak (white oak is decay resistant due to the high levels of tannien(sp tanic acid) red oak is not).
IF I was in your shoes, I'd use red cedar for posts and joists. Sounds to me like you should have no problem finding this in your area(try the newspaper ads and bargain hunter). Never had a prob with red cedar splintering and very decay resistant,cool for kids too. Posts could be double 2 x 6 screwed together..sands up smoother than a baby's bum. I've got a couple miles of red cedar fencing(slight exageration) around our house weathering well.
good luck and have fun
silver