Hi, all,
OK, I am considering taking on a big project. My Dad still owns the house I grew up in. It hasn’t been lived in or heated in nearly 25 years. He can’t cope with it now, and something needs to be done. I am about to volunteer to be the one who spends a year or two doing what needs to be done to rehab this house and hopefully save the investment.
This house is a mess in a lot of ways. Definitly needs new roof and likely roof system. Probably all the windows replaced and exterior doors. New heating/cooling plant. New floors. All kinds of plumbing redone, kitchen redone. But I’m also afraid it may need to be a total gut. An unheated house, at times open to the weather, inhabited by critters and people from the dark side.
So, when I trek home to assess if I can help, if anything can be done to recoup this house, who do I go to first? Should I talk to a local house inspector? Structural engineer? Local builders? Who do I want to talk to first to help us determine if it is worth anything more than the land its on, exactly what needs to be done, etc.?
Thanks a bunch.
Replies
Theodora, are we talking Cleveland here?
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
No, sweetie, sorry, or I would have called you first!
oh baby I like it when you talk like that.
be rest assured
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
I would talk to realtors and contractors. Find out what it will sell for as-is vs. remodeled, and find out roughly what the remodel costs will be. Since it sounds like you don't live there this could be a major chore.... finding people to reliably help you determine these things.
Major chore, yes, and I am dreading it. I will probably try all you BTer's patience asking for guidance.ICK, didn't want to say the "realtor" word yet, but yes, the point of knowing what comparables would be worth is a good one.
I would probably start with a home inspector. As bob said they are generalist.
But I would try to find one that has heavy background as a carpenter/GC/remodeler.
I think that a general overview, specially focusing basic soundness and wood rot/pest issues.
Whoever you use discuss what info you need and what they can get. A canned checklist of the problems aren't what you need.
I would also check with a realestate agent or two and find out what the market is for fixed up homes in that area.
BTW, what part of the country? IIRC you moved from OH, but where from the south!
"Whoever you use discuss what info you need and what they can get. A canned checklist of the problems aren't what you need."Not sure what you mean here, Bill?The house is in the mountains in the south. I'm in Oregon now, but would come back east for as long as it would take to deal with this.
A typical home inspection is done for someone that is planning to buy and move in, not fix up.So they often use a checklist or areas to check and likely problems.So a basic one for a room, might have1 Conditions of wall surface
2. Number of condition of recpetacles.
3. Do door work OK or are they bound.
4. Conditiion of windows.Well if you are gutting all/most of it then there is no reason to inspect and report on all those areas.
Oh, OK, I see what you mean. Thus your comment about soundness, pests, etc. Yes, it was clear when I last saw the house oh, eight years ago that we are not talking cosmetic or small stuff to make it move in ready.
Well shoot T, give us some basics to mull around.
Single story or two? Wood frame? Got any pics in the family album?
You know, with the friends here and via the BT forum I'm betting you could get a whole lot knocked out ahead of time prior to calling in some personnel for a hands on walk thru.
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Edited 5/28/2006 3:02 pm ET by rez
It's a 2700 sq foot ranch, originally built in 1950s, on slab. Addition in 1970 on crawl? Not sure I remember if it was deep enough for a crawl, but I remember the gravel, and the joists and all going over top of the floor in that area. Fuel oil, two underground tanks, addition has baseboard electric. Furnace and boiler circulated hot water through copper tubing in the slab in the original house. I posted a question about that in the Heating forum.Brick veneer in the old part, cedar on the addition. Old house, exterior and interior walls some kind of cinder block. Addition wood frame. When the addition was put on, in old interior walls were furred and drywall put up.Rez, I post a pic of that house, a hundred BTers will recognize it instantly, and I'm not ready for that quite yet! Gotta spend some "quality" time with Dad laying down the rules of the game, both his and mine, before we go into action.
One thing to check on near first thing are those tanks.If they ahve been setting there for 20 years with some oil in them then there is a good chance that they have leaked.
And if they leak dont let the EPA know about it!
ok.
After 25years be ready to spray. Those southern bugs always amazed me. Strange new alien life forms I think.
be just make sure they all got their green cards before the demo starts.
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
The mountains? I was thinking more Raleigh. Maybe needs a different cast of characters. Same beer.
Thank you for that offer...a fest sounds sound, and even if you guys only help me out online, it will be hugely appreciated.Perhaps the moving van back east should include a substantial number of cartons of Oregon microbrews.
Check with realtors to see the value of fixer-uppers, of fixed-ups, and the market for each. Or just do a lot of on-line research. Then, hold a mini-NC fest. Get Holly there, GDCarpenter, have Mike Smith come down to visit his grandkid, Pif has a relative in state iirc, I'll pop over, etc. We'll drink beer, put our heads together, and help you devise a plan to see if it's worth the effort or not.
Theodora,
I strongly agree with the others that have said to get an appraisal from a real estate agent. The "as is" price and what it would go for in "good" condition. Then at least you will have some hard numbers to guage stuff by.
Are you willing to tell us more specifically where this house is located. Maybe there is a fellow breaktimer nearby that would be able to help. Im assuming that if the house is worth re-habbing that you will be getting something like a construction loan. Dont forget to pay yourself for your time and effort. Try ( key word here is try) and treat the re-hab as a business as much as possible, to keep from getting into finiancial problems. Its hard to do when its a labor of love, and tied to your childhood.
Im right now looking at an old run-down house to buy and renovate. Fortunately or unfortunately, Ive fallen head-over-heals for this place. Just look at the place and see all the potential. Keep seeing things that need to be done and saying to my self "that's not a problem". So Ive actually decided to call in a friend ( who's also a carpenter) to come and look the place over and give me list of repairs and time estimates. Hopefully an unbiased opinion on the condition of the house.
What do you plan to do with the house after it is fixed up??? Sell it, keep it in the family, rent it?????
You are so right that it is going to be very difficult to separate emotion and good sense through this whole thing. Especially with my Dad. And I will be getting a baptism in business sense myself, and I hope I don't screw it all up.I'll post the location when I'm ready to get going seriously.I'd love to live in it myself, but I don't think I would be able to afford what the house would be worth, rehabbed. And six bedrooms is a lot for a single woman. But we'll see. Probably we have an eye on selling it.I'm off to work for the rest of the day. Thanks folks, and please DO keep any ideas coming. There's not a thing I've heard here so far that's not going to be useful to me.
Let me make you a list:1) Real Estate agent's comps so you know what its worth fixed up.
Then:1) Figure a new roof, windows & doors, siding, landscaping
2) The oil tanks gotta go.3) If septic and well, assume you need new both.4) New plumbing, heat & a/c, & electric
5) New baths and kitchen6) New sheetrock, millwork, and paint
At least $100k to fund this. More like 200-300. You need this in cash - no bankwill want to touch it.So unless comps come out at $400k it won't be worth it for you or your family.You need to find and PAY a trustworthy G/C.Good luck!
Brooks
That's an excellent algorithm. Thanks.Now, here's why I'm asking here. Statements like "No bank will want to touch it." You have to splain to me why.
If the houser is uninhabitable, a mortgage against it would be "non-conforming", which means it doesn't conform to FHA standards. This means the bank can'tsell the loan, which scares them.You'll only be able to borrow a small part of the house's current value - and your description leaves me thinking that it isn't much...I'd get comps right away. It'll tell you where you stand.Unless you have energetic family close by the house, I'd sell it. You won't be able to manage this from 2000 miles away. If I lived close by and there was AT LEAST a $50k spread I'd GC it myself.
Brooks
Boss, if we decide to do it, I'll be moving there till it's done.I can't wait to see how the figures work out on this. Sister and I are planning right now to go east late in June for a week and get some some info.Thanks for explaining the bank thing...
I just noticed this thread and skimmed through it - Did read every post. When I hear about someone trying to hang onto something for sentimental reasons, I'm always skeptical. I've watched too many people go through it, and so far none of them have seemed to end up being happy. Like when my Dad's parents died, Dad tried to hang onto everything. Every last scrap of paper that he could haul home from the desk, every knick-knack - Endless amounts of junk. You can't hardly walk through their house, garage, or his machine shed. The stuff is piled all over. And there's so much of it he can't really enjoy ANY of it. But to my knowledge he hasn't thrown out one scrap of paper for 20 years..Then there's the guy at work trying to hold onto his parent's house. His Brothers and Sisters want him to keep it, but won't lift a finger to help. So it's become nothing but an ongoing burden to him. He has to spend about a weekend a month down there trying to fix something. The interest and property taxes are eating him up, and causing a lot of friction between him and his Wife. .So I guess I want to know - If you aren't going to live in it, what good will it do you to know that you put a lot of work into it fixing it up so someone else can own it? Is it worth working through all the problems and disagreements when you don't plan to live in it?I don't mean to be a downer. But please remember what my Uncle once told me - "Every asset is also a liability". Is this asset worth the price you're going to pay for hanging onto it?Obviously none of us can answer that for you. But please think seriously about it before you take on a huge renovation.
Q: How can you tell if your husband is dead?
A: The sex is the same, but you get the remote.
Boss, I'm glad you articulated this. I've been thinking a lot about this kind of thing too. If I have my way, the decision on what to do will be as someone said earlier, a business decision. If doing some work on the house can bring up its value higher than the cost, good. If it looks like it is worth selling as is, I hope to convince my Dad to go that route.And yes, it would be ridiculously painful to do a really super renovation and sell it. It's definitely a house that has a tremendous amount of potential, and you could go all kinds of directions with it stylistically if you had the notion and the resources. I actually would like to see a young family enjoying this house and making it their own special place.....I've wanted to see that for years. It's a pity it's been empty.My goal in doing this is to try to find the solution that preserves as much of the value that the house has left, and not lose money or my mind.It is hard to not look back and get very very angry that he has let this trememdous investment fall to pieces. He's also done the same thing in the much smaller home he's living in now, but it has smaller problems, and is a smaller investment. THAT house will be project #2.
Boss
Then there's the guy at work trying to hold onto his parent's house. His Brothers and Sisters want him to keep it, but won't lift a finger to help. So it's become nothing but an ongoing burden to him.
NO KIDDNG, I've seen so much of that over time, always wonder whats with em.
I have tried to buy houses that were just going to hell sitting there, but because of sentimental reasons they werent going to part with it, not going to fix it but not going to sell it either.
That always amazes me, did there relatives want them to watch it rot to the ground! Cant imagine that being the case.
I know my kids well enough to know they'll be cashing in before my bodies cold!
Theodora, I'm not suggesting this is the case with you, hell I might do the same thing as you givin the circumstances, it's just differnt when your on the outside looking in.
Doug
"I have tried to buy houses that were just going to hell sitting there, but because of sentimental reasons they werent going to part with it, not going to fix it but not going to sell it either.That always amazes me, did there relatives want them to watch it rot to the ground! Cant imagine that being the case."Doug, that's the case here. It's my Dad's house, and that's exactly what he's done with it. And we kids have had to sit here and watch the investment go to waste, unable to do the first thing to move him to deal with it. In my case now, it is only the town's threat that they are going to condemn it, that he is agreeing to let me help him deal with it.As long as he's not mentally incompetent, he has a right to do what he wishes with his real estate, including letting to fall apart around him. It's been very, very frustrating over the years to watch this.
Theodora
It's been very, very frustrating over the years to watch this.
I hope you didn't take the comments I made as any disrespect.
I've seen it so many times, and as I've said, from the outside looking in.
It's always more difficult when its our own family. Real easy when we don't have an emotional connection.
Hope it works out for you.
Doug
Edit for spelling, forgot I was dealing with a librarian! Just don't check for sentence structure.
Edited 5/29/2006 10:37 pm ET by DougU
Thanks Doug, I didn't take any offense at all! I can admit that you described the situation perfectly from the outside. We have been trying to explain to people for years why this has happened, and you just have to shrug and say "family."
<<If you aren't going to live in it, what good will it do you to know that you put a lot of work into it fixing it up so someone else can own it?>>The sheer joy of bringing a wonderful building back to its former glory, of learning how things work, of being creative, of meeting new people, etc.
Not all values come with a dollar sign attached, but if it needs to be justified that way, one should not overlook the substantial capital gains tax advantage of living in a house for two years before selling it. If one spends those two years increasing its value, that's tax-free income. (Sorry, Theodora, that's the only sensible-shoes contribution i can make in this decision of yours.)But mostly, it's about the passion. This is the first of my houses i couldn't afford:
I gotta research that capital gains stuff on my Dad's behalf. It is not, after all, his primary residence anymore.Part of why I'm willing to work with him on this is because I need a challenge and a new goal, and I need to develop new skills. I'm stagnating mentally here in some ways. I need a project that develops the non-introverted parts of my temperament.Putting dollar values on things is not a skill my family has ever had. Especially my father. We need to do a little more of that, not a little less! And in this case, we're talking about an old man's resources, and if we blow these, his care ultimately will rest on either the state, or the generosity of his children. Uh, guess which of his children is the kind-hearted patient self-effacing one who always takes care of the sick old people? And guess which of his children has the most precarious financial picture herself and the least likely to have the resources to care for him? So in part here, I am using the resources I do have to do what I can now to hopefully save resources for the future. I have time and I don't have a job yet here that I love. I have research skills and am good at analyzing stuff. I have been listening here at BT for 4-5 years so I have passing acquaintance with what you guys are talking about, and now I have friends here for advice. I have the ability to listen to and deal with my Dad without wanting to jump off a bridge or shoot him. I have a certain degree of charm in working with people. I don't make rash decisions. And my main motivation in life seems to be taking care of the people that I love.Splintie, where the hell is the front end of that truck?
Capital gains will be taxed at a max of 15% of the gain.That is net sales prices (after expenses), minius cost basis, minus old captial improvements, minus the repairs that you will be making.
The capital gains stuff is essentially this: if you live in a house for two of the last five years, cumulative not necessarily consecutive, you can sell the house for as much as you can get and not pay capital gains taxes. If you don't, you will pay a minimum of 15% (i may be wrong on the percentage, but thereabouts) of the difference between the selling price minus (basis plus improvements). If it's been in your family that long, your basis (price your family paid way back when) is pretty minimal, so even if someone bought it for the price of the land, you'd get whacked for taxes. I sold the Victorian to my renter after i'd passed the five-year mark and rendered unto Caesar over $10K because of that. I was spread way too thin at the time and the renter and i made a very equitable deal, but i kick myself hard now for not moving back in for the two-year period. I guess much depends on if you are willing to live a little rough for the time being.I'm kind of drawn to taking care of the people i love, too. If it weren't for my Alzheimer's gig already, i'd relish throwing time into it if you decide to do this. My idea of retirement has been for years to load tools into my pickup and go around the country working on friends' houses for room and board. Perhaps you can get an agreement that you get the house in exchange for taking care of Pops?The front part of the truck...darlin', that's a redneck trailer a galpal loaned me to haul away three layers of old shingles. She's marvelous, a horse-trainer turned public-health nurse who worked in Kotzebue 5 years, had a sled dog team named after musical instruments (Piccolo, Banjo, etc.), now is off in Africa helping eradicate polio, and is learning to fly small planes with her new hubby who owns a hardware store near Bozeman. See all the interesting folks you'd be sure to meet? The parents of the roofer on the balcony humping bundles of shingles ran a personal-ads tabloid called Sweetheart Connection, now sweetheartmag.com. He told me with his influence, he could get me on the cover, which explains the short-term nature of our love affair, but was nevertheless a close brush with fame.
"If you don't, you will pay a minimum of 15% 'MAXIMUM.It is 5% for the lower income brackets.
I'll do some more reading on that just bec you are so definite, but that's not what i'm understanding so far.Edit: Bill, this may go a way toward explaining our various versions:http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/money/columns/article_1149572.php"The federal tax … would be calculated between 5 percent and 15 percent, depending on the amount of your income that's subject to regular income taxes."But Uncle Sam doesn't stop there if a seller's capital gains far exceed the $250,000-per-person exemption."Your capital gain could be substantial enough (for you to owe) Alternative Minimum Tax. … By the time you've filed your federal and California tax returns, it's possible that you could pay a combined effective tax between 30 percent and 35 percent," Quelle said.
Edited 5/30/2006 2:01 am ET by splintergroupie
Oh, ####.The basis of the house, original plus addition is 49K. Tax eval right now is 219K, and friends in the area who only know the outside are saying as is it's worth maybe 100-200K. I doubt that but getting the estimates of current worth will settle that. The comparables in the neighborhood and in town, after my research on the web, appear to be 400-450K. This could be a close one. He's going to stroke out regardless of the tax bill. But it beats 28%, don't it?I wonder if having your adult kid in the house for 2 years counts? He could come visit every weekend or two.As for his own living arrangements, it seems he will be moving in with my l'il bro and his wife in a house they are going to buy. Their own personal Hades, so I don't get to have all the fun myself, and that will be halfway between the two houses that need fixing up.I'm gonna mess up my manicure, aren't I?You got Alzheimers? Wow, it hasn't affected your verbal skills AT ALL yet!!
The first $250K of capital gains is actually all that's tax-free. For married couples, it's $500K. Now there's a thought...where's Mr. Hot Pads when you need him?It doesn't really matter if Dad's moving into the kids' place. If he has the property in his name, and it is the only property in his name for two years, he won't have any trouble taking the exemption after two years. Unless he has used the larger house as a rental, he might even be able to consider it his prime residence now. I take it from its not being heated for 25 years, this is not so, but this is hair-splitting territory where you might want to consult a tax accountant. There are some other caveats about what the basis is after gifting a house, after inheriting a house, and what happens to your tax bracket if you go over the exclusion; i'm pretty sure 15% is NOT the max, as Bill related. I admit i haven't investigated that thoroughly bec i knew none of my properties would net me over $250K, but it looks like your dad's could, if rehabbed. Another caveat is that you can use the exclusion only every two years, so you might want to work on the house he has inhabited for the last two years, then sell it ASAP so the clock starts ticking for the second house to be sold two years after the first sale.Alzheimer's gig: after Ian died, i called a woman i barely knew whose husband has been delaminating pretty rapidly in the last six months. I finally realized what she's been dealing with and pitched in to pull her back to shore, as friends had helped me during and after Ian. It did me at least as much good as it did her and now we've become great friends, pooling our resources with an aim to help Frank die well. I recently was razzing her about how she shovels like a girl and she laughed about not breaking a nail. This can't last...i'm making her help next week with the replumbing of her radiant floor heating source...wanna join us???
You are a good person to help your friend out. Stuff like that, you never get paid for in bucks, but you get paid in other ways, including that what goes round comes round, as you know. I took care of my MIL who had Alzheimer's. You need your friends, then. Delaminating...I like that image.All the tax stuff...it will be a good education for me. I wonder if I could make the argument that since NEITHER of his houses has been heated for at least two years, that he hasn't been technically living in either, but actually camping out?(If there IS a Mr. Hot Pads, he's on the same side of the country as the rehab house. I'm going to research that as well. Could be two stones with one bird!)
"Could be two stones with one bird!"A pair to draw to!
"Could be two stones with one bird!)"
that's standard equipment ...
You'll find that on most models.
good hunting.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think some very good advice has been given so far, but the biggest problem of all may be the strain of working on a project of such magnitude with a family member. Anything can be fixed, for a price, so as long as profit is not the main motivator, you should be okay in that regard. Lots of expert advice is available here, and no small amount of free or much discounted help is being offered, though the food and beverage bill might be substantial. But few of us can offer really good advice on how to get along with anybody that we are working with, let alone a father that would allow such a tragedy to take place. Trust me, My father is my pride and joy, but working with or for him, is a challenge that I would not wish on anybody else. Good luck, we will certainly help when we can.
Dan , now living 2500 miles from relatives of any sort.
Amen, amen. Lotta wisdom in that post.We can deal with it now, or deal with it later when Dad has turned in his dinner pail.Problem with later is, the town is gonna condemn this property if we don't do something, then we get bupkiss.
Definitely! Well, a girl has to hope so anyway.I was also using "bird" the way the Brits sometime do, very cute gurl type, ie., me!
makes even more sense now!
btw ... I love that accent ...
cockney?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"It doesn't really matter if Dad's moving into the kids' place. If he has the property in his name, and it is the only property in his name for two years, he won't have any trouble taking the exemption after two years. Unless he has used the larger house as a rental, he might even be able to consider it his prime residence now. I take it from its not being heated for 25 years, this is not so, but this is hair-splitting territory where you might want to consult a tax accountant.There are some other caveats about what the basis is after gifting a house, after inheriting a house, and what happens to your tax bracket if you go over the exclusion; i'm pretty sure 15% is NOT the max, as Bill related. I admit i haven't investigated that thoroughly bec i knew none of my properties would net me over $250K, but it looks like your dad's could, if rehabbed. "I stand my mine comment that capital gains on a house are maximum of 15%. But you bring up a valid point. If AMT is triggered then basically the whole tax code is thrown out the window and different tax code is used. IIRC that one does not have a specific capital gains rate and it disallows many deductions and credits.AMT is tricky, so ones should check this out. Never heard of it being triggered by a house sale, but it might.If it is gifted then the cost basis is the cost basis of the donor or the fair market value at the time of the gift, which ever is the LEAST.Cost basis on an inheritance is fair market value at time or death (or a time within 6 months after death).""It doesn't really matter if Dad's moving into the kids' place. If he has the property in his name, and it is the only property in his name for two years,"If questioned he needs to show that this is his principle residence. That would include things like the address used for bill, voter registration, car registration and the like.Slightly off topic, but I think that I will throw it in. This is an unual case and gifting might make sense, specially if she can qualify for the exclusion on the sale.However, in 99% of the cases where an eldery parent is living in the home and either gifts are puts there childrens name on the deed (to bypass probate, to "save it" if they have to go on medicaid, etc) is a big mistake.
OK, more good stuff to think about. A tax specialist dealing with senior issues probably needs to be on my list of people to cultivate.
MT is a high property tax state as well, so i ended up paying almost as much in state taxes as i did to the Feds for my "capital gains year"...one more thing to ask the tax accountant, Theodora. Get one versed in real estate for sure, senior issues probably, bec i went to a guy recommended to me a few years ago for advice and he didn't know much about property, his specialty being retail businesses. Too bad i didn't need to know anything about carrying over inventory...
What i meant about the property being in Dad's name is that if it is the only property he owns by they time he sells - the first property being disposed of two years earlier - the IRS assumes it's his PRINCIPLE residence for capital gains costs bec it's his ONLY residence...or so said my tax preparer.
She does excellent work ! That victorian is primo.You should offer to trade yer left somethin er other for her help, should she decide to load that power wagon and head east...=0)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Fest! Fest! Fest!Series of FH articles! The house that BT rehabbed! Then we could sell it and buy beer.
It's a good idea !!
People from here helped out a church that couldn't afford the repairs, why not one of our own ?
=0)
Of course it sounds like the money wouldn't be spent on beer, but on taking care of your dad. (Unless of course, your dad drinks a LOT of beer ! LOL)
P.S. If anyone deserves that bird, you do. I hope that works out as well.
=0)
View Image
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
"Not all values come with a dollar sign attached,"
When did I ever mention money?
My point was that taking on a large project like this would be a big emotional investment, as well as an investment of a lot of time.
I think it's important to consider the value of ANY investment before taking it on.
Life is not a dress rehearsal.
"When did I ever mention money?"
Here: "The interest and property taxes are eating him up..."
O.K., so I MENTIONED money. But I didn't use that as a primary reason for not doing the renovation. I just meant that in that particular case, the extra expense was causing a lot of problems for them, and they weren't seeing any benifit from it.
Money goes where it is wanted and stays where it is well treated. This annoys government to no end [Walter Wriston]
There needs to be some sort of equitable pay-off for everything we do - no such thing as unconditional love - but i grant i was reading too much $$$ into your comments bec of your stressful experience with the Spec House from Hell.I can speak from experience that the building process goes a lot more smoothly without first having to run things through the Spouse-Filter!
"...the building process goes a lot more smoothly without first having to run things through the Spouse-Filter!"
Did I read that right? I would have expected you to say the opposite.
I spilled spot remover on my dog.
He's gone now.
Let me indicate i was considering chrome faucets, and Ian darned well expected us to buy (and install!) chrome faucets instead of wandering off to look at tile. I've talked to other galpals who agree that one can't send up a trial balloon for a man bec you people just don't understand fantasy.
Oh, we understand fantasy, all right! Ours just don't involve chrome faucets. Well, not for most, anyway.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
would I be too far adrift if I listened to my instincts that this project is asmuch about rebuilding your reltionship with Dad as it is about rebuilding the old family manse? I wish you well and stand ready to help in what ever way I can
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for that thought, Piffin!Luckily, I've had a good relationship with Dad for a long time. He and I work together reasonable well. Especially after Mom's death 12 years ago, since I've had time to get to know him as an individual outside of their relationship. He's been great to me over the past difficult years of my life, and I'm happy to be able to give some of that back.
This is good to know!I remember once yers ago you mentioning something to the effect tht the day would come someday tht you would have to step in and be taking caare of things for him, and on that final day when it comes too...and I replied that we would be here for you when you needed us. Still mean it.
hope this deal works whichever way it runs
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Update on this situation...I'm going to see the house in person on Monday for the first time in ten years. But I saw some pictures of the interior taken by someone who expressed an interest in buying the house "as is" and fixing it up. Once he was inside, he decided he wasn't interested and that the task was way beyond him.The pictures make me wretch. The roof has holes around one of the chimneys and water has been pouring in. Floors appear to be covered with black mold/mildew or slime, there is mold on the walls up about two to three feet in one quarter of the house. I don't particularly even want to walk in there. The "study" with its gorgeous panelled walls took the worst hit.Several weeks ago, I took all the advice I got here, and elsewhere, and wrote up a letter for my Dad telling him what needed to be done, in what order, who to talk to, etc. He was very dismissive. Working with him is like pulling teeth. The most progress I've made is to agree to get him to talk to a lawyer about the action the town is going to take about this house (safety issues, broken windows and doors.) So we have an appointment Monday with an attorney. And we're going to talk to him about the ramifications of selling "as is", etc., and hopefully some recommendation in regard to the whole mess.I hope the attorney has more success than I in convincing him that he needs to have some professionals look at this house and make recommendations. I haven't had that luck yet. He's dismissing talking to any brokers or house inspectors at this point, because he doesn't want anyone in town to know about the interior of the house. (I have a feeling they know...the back door has been hanging open for God knows how long.) And he doesn't want anyone putting a number on what the house is worth, because he doesn't want to hear it or believe it.He IS willing to talk roofs at this point with a builder. I'm not sure that's the right choice but at least we need to get those holes repaired.As you all really know, this is tough...it is heartbreaking for me to see it, but I try to keep my rational mind focused and not my heart. And this man is a bear to work with, but it take patience, and I try to have it. And the house he IS currently living in is also a disaster and mess, no hot water, plumbing barely works, no heat, papers pilled everywhere and stuff needs to be done there for his OWN safety.My Dad, the ultimate absent-minded professor! I love him, but he makes it tough sometimes! And in case anyone wonders about his mental status as an elderly person.... no sign of dementia at all. He's been this way all his life. NO COMMON sense. Brilliant historian and the MOST fun to talk to about all kinds of stuff. But makes questionable real estate choices.
Theodora-
I just read the last post about your dad and his attitude.
It reminds me of someone I knew - my dad. He wasn't a professor, at least not by trade, but he could talk some great stories and he was a very, very sharp man. He was offered a full 4 year scholarship by Dow chemical co. when he was in 10th grade, but left high school to go to work as a plasterer. He never stopped reading or learning. We shared many a bottle of wine and many evenings going over different subjects. He too was as stubborn as they come, and when logic didn't work, he would "pull rank" and just say that we had to do it his way "Because I said so!". (Any German ancestors by chance? Maybe we're related. [G])
We were partners on some real estate and we butted heads as we were getting ready to sell it and were about 90% done. We couldn't agree on the rest no matter how hard I tried. Eventually, I got an offer from somebody that wasn't concerned about that 10% and the property got sold. Life went on and we still worked together on stuff, but as he got older, it got harder and harder.
There were things that I wanted to do for him and with him, that never got done because he wouldn't go for it. The sad part about it is that sometimes you aren't going to make any headway and you need to walk away to protect your own sanity.
Good luck.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks for the update. I know all too well how difficult it can be to deal with stubborn parents, so I feel for ya. Hope it all works out well.
The most important quality in a leader is that of being acknowledged as such. [Andre Maurois]
I must admit that I am surprised to hear everybody else describing my father, when I don't think that you have met him. I am patiently waiting for the advice from somebody with cooperative open minded and easy going parents. Good Luck Theodora, I suspect you will be needing it!! From this far away, and no pictures yet, I am going to guess that it probably is not worth the trouble to try and rehab. I hope I am wrong, as it could be a great way to re-unite with your father, but it sounds pretty far down the road towards a big mess.
Dan
> I am patiently waiting for the advice from somebody with cooperative open minded and easy going parents.
You need to talk to our kids.... ;-)
-- J.S.
Update on this one. I've been in the house the past couple days with my Dad, and we've met with his lawyer, and with the contractor who put the addition on 30 years ago.I'm happier than I could imagine. It looks like things are working out so far in such a way that he is going to see the wisdom of limiting what he does here. And the contractor was great...listened to my Dad patiently. But then said, "Dr, D., this is what I can do for you, I don't think it is the wisest thing to put a roof on this house yet without putting a lot of thought into this first. I need to come back here, do basically what is a thorough inspection and appraisal of every system in this house. And then I am going to think about it and get back to you. I'm going to write up a report of what I see needs done, and what is a first order, a second order, a third order priority. There are some very serious problems with this house, and it may not be the ones you think are obvious. And I will do an estimate for you of what it will cost to do all this, Then you can sit down and look at your figures and decide what is the best choice for you."My Dad took that well. That was what the lawyer wanted to hear as well. And Dad had gone into the morning thinking he was going to get the broken windows boarded up and a roof estimate only. He was saying he didn't want to take it any further than that, but in the end, he listened. And honestly, a huge part of WHY he listened was the contractor's know my Dad, treating him with the utmost respect, being honest, going SLOWLY and clearing, etc. He was a good psychologist. One of my bugaboos is the way elderly people are sometimes treated, and sometimes, they need more time to digest what they hear, think about stuff, sort stuff out mentally.And it was pretty much exactly what I wanted to hear. Hallelujah. And I really enjoyed talking with the contractor. I remembered him pretty well from when I was a kid, and he still knows the house well. He reminded me of a lot of stuff that was done in the renovation when I was twelve., Like in the formal rooms of the house, the cinder block core walls were plastered. Dry wall was put up in the bedrooms. I had forgotten that. Like and idiot, I could have knocked on the walls but whadda I know? I was remembering the guys furring the cinder block and taping the dry wall, but after I talked to him, I started remembering them plastering.And the talk with the lawyer got the city off Dad's back....they were close to condemning the place. And this lawyer will help with the rest of the issues in selling.My impression was that after our two days here, a lot of calls were flying around town. Of course a lot of people in the community were aware of the house's problems, and a lot of people have a lot of good will for my Dad. So, I think we have hooked up with two good professionals, and I think that they are gently going to bring him around to the point of view of the best choice for him to make.I'm eager to see the figures from the contractor. He's sending them to me as well...I'll let you all know what he says, and keep you updated about how Dad makes his decision. And it looks after a week here, that I'm almost one hundred percent likely to be moving back to NC soon. Too many ways I'm needed here, and a much better job market. I adore Portland, but the job situation is tiresome, and I feel stagnant, not to mention without health insurance. So I'm ready to take the next chance in life here.For all the arguing with my father, eventually, stuff seems to work out and he says thank you. I am seeing him very very exhausted by this, emotional at facing his own mortality and his own mistakes, but relieved that something he has been dreading is finally underway, going well for him, and he's being treated with respect and patience by everyone involved. Well, maybe except for me.Any way, I really really like being able to take something that could very possibly have a very sad and wasteful ending, and hopefully turn it into something positive, even if that only amounts to helping my Dad do something really difficult.Oh, and the house, ick, nasty! Nasty! I dressed up so I couldn' t possibley be required to lift boxes of mildewy stuff or go in cobwebby corners or on rooves. I took some pics. I show them when I get back to Oregon,Thanks for all your help and listening.
Im glad you all are happy . Good luck.
Tim
Great news and bon voyage!
"One of my bugaboos is the way elderly people are sometimes treated, and sometimes, they need more time to digest what they hear, think about stuff, sort stuff out mentally."And some of us only kinda elderly, are like that as well.The flip side to that same dirty coin is that those of us who are like that... Once we actually digest all of it, and make a decision... We want it to work -right now- !!;o)=0)
Yadda yadda yadda
Thanks for the update. Always nice to get a follow-up on something we've heard about here.One thing you probably already know, but just in case you hadn't thought of it - You kmentioned your Dad realizing his mistakes. But I'm sure he doesn't see it that way. From his perspective, he just changed his mind. Throw the word "mistake" at him, or even HINT that he might have been wrong, and he's likely to get ticked off and defensive. Not something you need if you're trying to stay close and help him out.
You can only govern men by serving them. The rule is without exception. [Victor Cousin]
hehehehehe, Don't think I didn't notice! It's been amusing this week to notice how good ideas are suddenly his, It's amusing and I don't call him on it too often. I did sorta crow after the contractor said what he wanted to do, "See, Daddy, I TOLD YOU the folks at Breaktime said to do it that way,This whole thing has an element of theatre that I am amused by and that helps me keep a bit of a distance. Especially the lovely small town it is taking place in. The characters are so wonderful.
Hey T, sounds like you've got your dad's house troubles in capable hands...with out even breaking a nail<G> I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Chortle chortle, you know me too well. I had new nails put on last week just so I wouldn't have to pick locks, pull weeds, stack bricks, wash mildew off walls, They're too damn long however, and I can't do this keyboard! They're going to get shortened next week.
I'm glad it's all looking positive for you, and your dad. It's gonna be a tough road ahead, but at least your on the right track. Thanks for the update.
Your contractor souns like a very good find. Your dads good karma is coming back to him now. That's the reward right there.
Tipi fest 06. The island is gonna bounce, Ese.
We are all glad to hear it is off to a positive start, let us hope it continues. Now we need some pictures, so we can show how truly gifted a group you are dealing with here. Inside, outside and all possible angles! Even this bunch of fine craftsman need a visual aid or two in order to complete the estimating process. Thank you very much for the update, I often wonder, "what ever happened with?" Its nice to keep up with the progress. Good luck
Dan
Update...Well, I got a job offer in the town the house is located in. I'll be on my way east in a few days, and once there, will start doing whatever needs doing on this house.We have decided along with the contractor, to put on a new roof, eaves, gutters and downspouts, and repair around the chimney where there is leaking. Then on to making decisions about the heating and plumbing systems and the rest.Then, to sit down with Dad and look at numbers and decide whether to do a more full rehab or to sell at that point.You can imagine I really wish the house were move in ready so me, myself, and I and the three cats could move in!Will keep everyone updated.
I just know you are going to miss northeast Ohio's winters there in N.C.
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
Please! In the nw corner of NC, we HAVE those winters, sort of.
LADY! I have it on good report that the sun shines in NC in the wintertime.
be thankyou very much now
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
Yeah, it causes glare on the ice.
Thanks fer keeping us posted.
A home where the buffalo roam is a messy one
I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said. As hard as it sounds don't fall in love with it. Anything that your not gonna recoup in the resale is a house warming gift for the new buyer.
I got one question. What the heck kind of librarian goes to work at 12:30 on a Sunday afternoon. On a holiday weekend to boot? The that hard up to learn stuff there?
GIVE ME AN............. F!
Gunner, one of my jobs, I'm on call. That means I work all this weekend. Yup, tomorrow included. None of the regulars want to work the weekend. But tomorrow will be nice. I get the whole place to myself cause we're closed to the public and I get to work solo.Portland's a big reading town. You have to do something in all this rain!Yep, I already have a mental picture of what that house _could_ be, but that's just dreaming. I'm just trying to save what value we do have in it at this point. I'd hate to see it trashed if there's any equity in it at all.
Taunton has a good book out called Renovating old houses. By George Nash.
It deals with alot of what your fixing to get into including structural and financial evaluation. It's well worth the read. If you can't find it there or just want to borrow a copy I'll loan you mine.
It wouldn't hurt to have it handy so your not to overwhelmed when people start talking about different things. At least you will know what they are talking about and can ask informed questions.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
Thanks, Gunner, I just placed a reserve on tha Nash book the library. Excellent suggestion. I should get it within a couple of days. (Today I grabbed all the back issues of FH off the shelves and a HVAC handbook. With me, it's all about the research.)
I will legislate for falling in love, if the old home place deserves your passion. You will learn an enormous amount of skills and knowledge in a short time, with the best resources on the web to help you. How can you resist?
Oh, I can resist because I have no resources to put towards it, only my time. Dad's resources have to finance it, and they probably don't leave a whole lot of room to dream. I tell you, at one time, it was a beautifully landscaped garden, native flowers, etc., and I could develop a real passion for bringing THAT back.I DO look forward to a chance to take on what will be a challenge for me, even if the research ends up telling us to sell as is. I need a new challenge and it wouldn't hurt to gain some skills.
I understand IMERC has a thing for helping librarians.
be just start wearing purple spandex
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Who doesn't like 'em?
purple spandex?
be c'mon, we have to draw a line somewere
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
No, librarian, silly!
Oh, ok.
be now silly, that I understand
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
that spandex was Rez's idea...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
and dont forget about LUKA!!!Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
I helped them meet you didn't I.....
be Rez - livin' with a harem....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The Nash book is very good, but unless there is an update that I am not aware of, it is a bit dated. I think the original is from the mid 80's, and things like Hardi-plank and PEX are not covered.If there is a problem getting it at the library, let me know. I'll loan you mine.
That's a great book. I bought that one about the time I bought my house, and it got me quite a ways.
They've got another one, called "renovation" by Litchfield. More professionally oreinted, but very good.zak
"so it goes"
Instead of having six bedrooms, why not make one a dedicated office, open the floorplan and have the kitchen, dining and family rooms serve as one large space? This way, you would be rebuilding it more like a newer house and it's functionality would be better than they way they built them in the '50s. Also, if you remove some walls, there will be less to rebuild. Different roof/wall framing obviously, but more open space = less walls.Get some cheap laborers to strip the walls and insulation- this could be done in a day or two. Then, you have a clean slate to work with and it'll be easier to not only see what you have but to make the changes you want/need to. A couple of big dumpsters and you'd be well on your way.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yep, highfish, I've often over the years rethought the floor plan of this house. It's very versatile.
take pics and post them....
yur in the right place now...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
When my dad bought a farm with an old farmhouse on it, he had three different contractor friends look at the house. The first two said "tear it down". The third said "Insure it, and then burn it".
Not that I'm advocating either. We ended up rehabbing the place, and, discounting sweat equity, ended up with an appraised value increase that was twice what my dad put into it.
Hey Theodora, I just now saw this thread. If I can help you in any way, professionally or supportively, it would be my pleasure.And, as Cloud suggested, there are lot of heads around here that we could knock together...something intersting might fall out<G>Holly I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Thanks! Dad has a house in Durham that needs mucho work too, and when we get to that point, I'm gonna pick your brain! It's not safe to let him live there anymore.I wish I could get him to understand that Breaktime is real and that I am actually discussing this with people in the industry who know what they are talking about. It's as though I am giving him advice from my kindergarten playgroup. All I get is "you don't know what you are talking about." Grrrrrr But inch by inch, I'm makin' progress.Thanks, all, for the good wishes.
It's as though I am giving him advice from my kindergarten playgroup.so, your dad has been here <G>929-6359...and, John Carrol, a big-time FHB author, and crackerjack remodeler lives in Derm...Cheers
I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Well, he reads FH, but doesn't believe Breaktime is real, I don't think.Gotcher number in the cell phone! Thanks
This means you won't be turning me loose in the crawlspace with a sawzall afterall?Darn! I just found some bibs with Mickey on the front pocket, too...
Wow .
I just happened on the thread this morning and read it .
Lemme get this outta the way that I copied reading this thread ; And yes, it would be ridiculously painful to do a really super renovation and sell it.
That paste is not in order but there it is still the same.
Ive made the biggest part of my living on houses like this for the past 16 years. Seems we all bring different experience to these boards . This happens to be my expertise at this time in my life. That however doesnt lesson the experience of others here that practice in their respective fields. Ive used Breaktime to get me over the humps, for there are people here that pass my experience on many different subjects. Its a great place to be for people wanting to pioneer a project.
My statement for now ;
I dont really see how we can help you till we have detailed pics of every portion of the house although we are willing to jump in. Im sure after that has been done the guys will discuss it throughly.
What I pasted above is really a bad condition for you to be in. Decisions like this are made with cold hearts. Emotion and business dont mix well unless you have the power in your self to separate it . Still once on a project that is built by emotion its hard not to fall prey. 400 grand is not playing with emotions. Its very serious .
The first way to attack it is a solid business plan that is sure to work. I listen to numbers when it comes to this step and not people . You have to know you can call the ball and that you are in control. The first step is a market appraisel . That is done when an agency is contacted . Lets say they have 22 agents working for them and Tuesday morning they all jump in cars and view new listings or to be listings plus give detailed opinions on what a property is worth if the customer has requested it . They will give you a detailed report of what they believe they can sell it for and make reccomendations on what you need to do to it . You can ask for "as is value "and what it will be worth with said work done . Those figgures remain in the center of the axis and never leave or change. The job has to come under the top expected amount or the lower amount has to be considered. Thats how you gain the information for the decision whether to make a project or a flip.
The next step is to price what you cannot do and it looks like the roof is in order first with extensive repairs. You then take different things in order like the windows and doors being next. You want to get the subject in the dry and lock it .
The mold is the next issue and at least part of the house will have to be gutted.
The best thing I read is that it is on a concrete floor . Most of the time if a house is in this condition a crawl space house has gone to h^ll. At least you have a solid foundation and floor. Ive never seen a house that couldnt be rebuilt if it had this asset.
If this all works out with numbers , then its time to move on to an apraisel. That will set the bank standard whether its accurate or not . It might as well be a law because there is no avoiding this guy dealing with a bank. Hes almost God in this situation. However you are better off if you hire him before the bank sends him out . You contact him and give him no bank name . Then he is working for you and not low balling for a banks interrests. That is a real part of this business.
First though after you recieve all the numbers you have to decide how you are going to meet your obligations . If you cant do that then the deal is off because they will collect on their interrests. The above step mentioned earliar is sound in determining what you can or cannot do and actualy being force led to do the correct thing. We only listen to valid numbers in the first phase. If there is a later then we get to talk about construction , remodeling , and those wonderful choices of what to install and what not to.
I disagree with the poster that said the bank wont have it . I can borrow money on a shid house on the side of a mountain or a house sitting in a swamp, but I have to have a solid plan and be able to make it happen. Ive done many in this shape all with bank financing . Things like this is where someone can be mislead listening to people. My very first deal I took to a loan officer was turned down. The rejection was over whelming . It affected my decisions for the next 10 years. I believed I had some kind of magic powder on my face that a banker could read and reject me so I never tried again for a long time . Now I look back , I brought a solid deal to the table that my bankers now would write in minutes with out question. I aslo learned I picked the most negative banker in town. He has given more rejections than any other loan officer and has the best reccord of paid off loans and hes proud of it . Thats not what I needed , but one thing is for sure , he didnt believe in my ability to make it happen and I didnt bring in a plan. So its part my fault . Today many years later I would have a plan and I would pick up my sachel and be sitting in front of another loan officer with in the hour if I could get in. You have to have a plan you know that will work or be prepared to switch plans or walk.
Tim
Thanks, Tim!I'm printing out your post, and giving it to my Dad. I was just up at the house this morning for the first time in ten years. One of the doors was wide open, and that's after Dad had closed the doors when he was up there two weeks ago. So someone is living in/using the house or whatever, but that's not news. I've known for years homeless people and other interesting characters have been in there. I was a little scared to walk in, but I had a friend with me.The interior of the house is horrible, and will have to be gutted completely.This is going to be very tough to get Dad to see reality on. We have an appt with a builder Tues morning ostensibley to talk rooves and I"m hoping the builder, who was the contractor who did the addition/renovation 36 years ago, will lay it straight for my Dad. He needs to listen to someone.Thanks, guys, I'll keep you updated. I'm going to take some pics Monday, I didn't have my camera today. Didn't expect to go to the house, just had a date with a friend in the same town.
Am i the only one to question the wisdom of putting a roof on a house that may not have enough left in it to remodel at a price anyone who isn't emotionally invested can afford? Maybe i'm misunderstanding the order of things, but it seems a roof should be considered only if the whole project is a 'go'. Otherwise, it's a lot of money just to stabilize the house...how about 'hurricane roof' (tarp) as a temp measure until you get the financing/selling/legal aspects sorted?Not to discredit Tim's advice, but his getting financing as a builder with a track record isn't like your trying to get a bank to loan to a [female] librarian and her elderly father. Sorry, but my experience as a female woodworker was that i had to find an assumable loan in order to get a foot in the door into rehabbing houses...banks wouldn't loan to me even with 1/3 down. YMMV, of course.That said, i'm all for emotional investments and i have a good respirator, will travel.
You are not the only one, I agree completely, it is bassackwards. and have argued this point with him countless times. But whadda I know, is the response I get. I fear the rafters are shot. And while the original body of the house has interior as well as exterior walls that are concrete block which can be gutted down to, the addition is entirely frame. (The concrete interior walls were furred and drywall added when we added on 30 years ago. You can still see it in the closet. A saving grace there that those walls aren't likely to crash any time soon.)As an 82 year old who doesn't do the Web, he has no conception of the input and the community of good will I have here, and discounts it as a resource completely. This is very sad. He cannot really wrap his mind around the idea that I might actually be communicating with people who work in this industry. Plus, the kid thing. Dad will always know more than the kid, right?PS, resource-wise, I won't be contributing any money to this situation. As you said, librarian salary, and low one at that. Any financial resources/risk are his alone. I am the gofer, the chauffeur, the researcher, the spread-sheeter, the hand-holder. But mostly right now, I am the person who is gently and patiently trying to talk him up to dealing with this mess bit by bit. Honestly, it is a major triumph that I got him to call a lawyer and a contractor for appointments this week. Hours of phone fighting and name calling, just to get him to call a lawyer.I am hoping that possibly the lawyer and the contractor will tell him some hard home truths. I fervently hope so.And I will raise the temporary roof situation....hadn't thought of that.Thank you, SG for your travel offer. I DID wheeze after being in the house this morning. I have a witness to it!If it were _my_ house, and I had money, I'd do a "House that the Woodshed Rehabbed" extended fest and have you all converge and raise this barn and write it up for the magazine while reimbursing you all handsomely and making sure flattering pictures appeared in the article.
" Not to discredit Tim's advice, but his getting financing as a builder with a track record isn't like your trying to get a bank to loan to a [female] librarian and her elderly father. Sorry, but my experience as a female woodworker was that i had to find an assumable loan in order to get a foot in the door into rehabbing houses...banks wouldn't loan to me even with 1/3 down. YMMV, of course."
Her Father already owns the property. You are right but deals work because they are good ones like 60 cents on the dollar of the net worth like this house might bring if it was turned over to an investor . If that happened the investor would walk into the bank with 40 percent down or the same thing. He would do that with an appraisel in his hand against the purchase price.
Tim
We agree on the principles of bank loans against value. What i said besides that, is that a bank can discriminate whom it loans to based on some non-numerical considerations. Just as you saw your would-be investor as a "he"...it's simply an extra thing to deal with as part of the culture of construction and getting loans that men in the business don't notice. I simply wanted to throw that out to T as a consideration of her chances of securing a loan, which now appears to be a moot point.
Ive heard wommen speak about that a lot . Im sorry to say I have no history there . I was going to put a smily but I havent even been on the discrimitive side . I do think its pretty cool when they succeed . Theres one that lives here that did and Im very proud of her . I will tell you one thing . She was where you think you are and as I did on that first deal. Move on and knock on another door . Im sure its hard as she still gets the same treatment when Im with her . People look to me in a meeting she brought me to as a guest .
Tell ya one more .
Sqaure Peg entered a meeting and a man asked her to get them some coffee and she did . Then she said Ill now conduct the meeting .
But then there are other times women get revenge or wont deal with it when they are in charge. There was a very successful salesman from a huge reputable company that would not discuss business with a woman but he was forced to in my wifes case as shes the general manager of the compnany that he was in and was directed to her . He didnt like it and it was all over himself like you might have poured hot oatmeal over his head. Not much was said but she just stood and said , I think were done here .
Not all Bankers are predujuce but they are a critical lot and seem to be negative over all but Ive met several exceptions. I hope you find one as I did .
On the other hand did you walk in with a plan?
Tim
I think 1/3-down was the plan, along with a shopful of tools, degree and experience in the field. How many insurance policies make you pay 1/3 up-front?Your stories mirror my experience. One of the phrases a banker told me when i wanted to simply refinance my first house after paying the mortgage+ for 8 years, was that my income from art fairs wasn't "verifiable" and therefore could even be "drug money". Norwest told me i'd get financing if i re-married my XDH. By contrast, i had my one-and-only blind date with a guy who signed a loan for a new truck...shortly after he got out of rehab...which cost nearly as much as my first house.I'm my own bank these days. <G>