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I probably should have started a new thread but there is already a liability insurance thread in the business folder where I put my question.
If you would be so kind as to look over there, I would really like to hear what some of you who don’t visit the business section have to say about my marble floor situation.
Thanks,
Ed.
Replies
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Good question Ed. Who is at fault is obvious. Electrician ran wire where he shouldn't have, tile guy thought nothing of it, your guy had no way of knowing, and you are getting the blame and the bill for the electrician's f**k up.
You're ins co. might say it's not your fault & we're not paying? Seems like they are much better at taking money than parting with it.
Actually I think it will have a lot to do with your agent too. A good one who is working for the customer can find reasons to pay, and a bad one just goes with the flow from the company. Joe H
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*I agree with Joe H, Someone should ask the electrical company how they proposed to remove the excess wire from the closet entrance, supposing it wasn't damaged. Seems to me they'd still have to take up the floor or splice it.
*Like you said in your post over there now is when you find out just how good your insurance is.Reading your post without seeing the job site, reading the contracts, etc no way can anyone say who is liable. But, that is what you pay your insurance company for.One point; Joe made a comment about this depending on how good your agent is. My experience is that the agent isn't the one who makes the pay/no-pay decision. That is either an adjuster or someone from the legal department. They do it based on their profits, not necessarily on who is ultimately liable. I've had more than one situation where my insurance company paid off or didn't pursue a claim just because of the money even though liability was clearly the opposite way.Let us know.
*well, ed. this is confusing.. do you want the reply here ...or there.. Mike Smith "Liability insurance" 7/14/01 1:23pm
*FredB, I didn't mean that to read as it is the agent's decision whether or not to pay. What I meant is that having an agent who wants to help you can make a difference. A good agent can swing the tide your way, but it requires some effort on his part that many don't bother to give.Joe F, I pictured this as loops are running to the walls on each side, and at the door opening they have run past the walls.....sloppy? In this case doing sloppy work is going to cost someone a hell of a lot of time and money. To me, the electrician screwed up, unintentionally & probably won't repeat this mistake if he is made aware of what's happened.Unfortunately, the result of his screw up has now become Ed's problem. Should Ed pay for something he originally had no control over? Should Ed's insurance company pay for a mistake made by another? Guess we'll all find out later.....Joe H
*But a good agent will go to bat for the customer.....against the adjuster. Jeff
*Thanks so far.I think everyone but JoeF has got the right slant.JoeF,Lets say the super told you to dig a hole in the back yard at a spot he marked. You hit a gas line. So you go back to the super and he says, yeah, I knew the gas line was there, I had it installed there three weeks ago. Why didn't you ask me about it or call the gas company? Does this seem right to you?Just because I was on the property doing my job that had nothing to do with the gas line, why am I liable? Just because I was the one who hit it? Don't you think the responsibility falls on the man who knew where the gas line was, didn't tell me it was there, and ask me to dig the hole on top of it?Ed.
*i'm not joe.. but guess what.. you're liable..if your guy cut into the wall without looking... and he cut some wires...?the question is... how much of the liability is yours?answer: who cares..notify your insurance company and theirs and let them fight it out... the important thing is to get the thing repaired ...and move on..bet your guy don't cut into tile mud without asking questions in the future either... so..all three of you learned something .. didn't you?well, didn't you?
*Ed, If the situation was exactly as you describe it...The mud was sloppy and extended into what was obviously a doorway, then Judge Judy would go after the boneheaded electrician and the mud guy. BUT, Did your guy know there was radiant heat in the floor?? If he did and cut into the sloppy mud anyway, you are going to foot the bill one way or the other even tho' it was not you who initially screwed the thing up!
*Ed ---The bad news is you are liable. Let's assume that all the prior work had been done years ago and your job was to just to do the wood floring (as I remember).Since no one else was around, you must be to blame.You can go to court and put the blame on someone else, your insurer will try to help. The other trades will bring their insurers. In the end a judge will make someone pay. It may be you. It may not.S*** happens. Accpet it. Accpet the insurers sesttlement and move on.
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*First of all, you can't treat this situation in the "what if" catagory. This is new construction not even a month old with paid supervision by the builder. In remodelling, we all know that what you find in the wall is what you find, and the owner will be responsible for any surprises. That's what we tell them, and that's how it works. We just took down an old plaster ceiling at another job to find the 18' floor joist had sagged so much over the years that most of them had cracked. Is that my liability? Should I pay to replace them just because I found them? I don't think so. Nobody knew the 80 year old joist would be cracked. It's a remodel. No one said put enough in your estimate to replace the joist because no one knew the situation existed. In this marble floor job, somebody knew that the wires were where they weren't supposed to be. Someone was paid to supervise the installation and be sure it was correct. That person should have told my carpenter that information. Like JoeF says, He should have watched him do it to be sure that this expensive floor was not in jepordy. That was the supers job, not mine.Had the super told me or my carpenter the scoop, I would have said, OK, call the marble guy and have him remove the mud, and you better call the radiant heat guy to be sure this system can be run under wood. We would not have touched it. But we were not informed. We were just told to install. If the super held out this important information, to me it's as good as if he cut the wires himself.In new construction, the super better know what's in the floors and behind the walls. We offer supervisory services and on one of the jobs where we are supervising, we just recently video taped the walls and ceilings of that job before the rock went up just so we would remember exactly where everything is. We are the super; that's our job. We take the responsibility at that job, but not at this one.Back when I was a super and then a PM for some large builders here in Dallas, I always put down screeds for the marble and tile guy to work to. I'd say this is where you stop. Don't move it. When the screed came up there was a nice clean line to work the wood flooring to. Easy, simple, no chance for mistakes. The super on this job didn't do that. I would have approched the job just as our carpenter did. Tape off the marble, lay down a shoot board to protect the surface as well as creating a straight cut line and score the mud to remove it. That way you only have to chisel out the small corners. A cold chisel will work, but it leaves a ragged edge and can crack the mud bed back under the marble and cause a void that will crack later. I wouldn't advise hammering it out with a chisel. That's my opinion. I think it's too aggressive for such a fragile surface.I guess I'll get the call on Monday from the builder on this subject. Circumstances as they are, I don't believe my carpenter or my company should be held liable. We did as instructed. The adverse effect was because the super didn't do his job by informing us that the wires were run too far out of the room, into the doorway and under where the wood landing should be. I don't think that this particular method of radiant heat is intended for under wood floors. I don't know about that, but I guess I need to find out.That's my opinion.I'll let you know what happens. Thanks to everyone. Typing this out helps me think things through before the talking begins.Ed.
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Joe,I'm sure it could have, but that's not what's on the plans. It calls for a wood landing tread there. The door swings back into the bath. Not over the stairs. That's why the marble was terminated at the line of the wall and not into the closet doorway. When the door is shut, you see marble floor in the bath and wood tread in the closet.Sure we knew there was radiant heat under the MARBLE floor. We didn't know it phisically extended past the marble and into the mud spill out that went into our doorway where the mud and marble shouldn't be. How could we assume the wires would be where they weren't supposed to be? Shouldn't the person who knew that have told us? Or am I to question the supers ability to do his job correctly. Yeah, I know, trust no one. Taking the facts as they are and the chain of command here, I have to do as I am told.I am well insured. If I felt it was my fault, I'd be the first to make the claim. But it's not. No more than a car wreck would be my fault if the tire manufacturer didn't tell me the tires were faulty when they knew of the problem before hand.I proceded with the installation as normal not knowing there was an issue to be concerned with. Someone else knew that and didn't tell me. If I broke the marble in the process of doing my job? You bet, I'll pay. That would be my liability. But in this situation where someone knew a problem existed and didn't tell me about it, well, I'm gonna have to stick to my guns on this one.If the builder is serious about making me liable, then I'll inform my agent and see where to go from there. Do I want to lose a good client over this? No. Do I want my insurance pay for something that's not my fault? No. Will I end up between a rock and a hard place? Only time will tell. Ed.
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*This is the builder/supervisor's fault 100%. What the heck(stated nicely) is his purpose on the project anyway? He is getting paid to direct each trade through the project. It is his own responsibility to look over each trade in progress and make sure no conflicts arise like this one. If he overlooked it, didn't take a note at the end of the day to pass it along, that's his fault again. I cut back many excess grout and mud issues in the process of installing wood floors. How am I suppose to know if wires are underneath excess mud? The other issue is, did the electrician know the marble would stop at the jamb edge, or did he think it would stop where it usually does; under the middle of the door. Again the builders lack of communication with the stone and electrician installers. The builder can't just go hide everytime he screws up in the process and pass the buck. He could just say I don't know it all, but that statement doesn't cut it when he is projecting himself as a project manager for hire. I would present it to your insurance company that way Ed. There's no way your insurance company will hold you responsible unless it can be proven to them that you knew in advance the situation. Let them inform your builder. They don't have any problem being the bad guy. GW
*Greg,You have raised an excllent point here. The marble should have been split at the halfway point of the door so the joint is under the middle of the door when closed. If the marble had gone in that extra 7/8" into the rough opening we might not be in this boat. We just nicked about the first 3/8" of the end of the loops. Again, this is something the super should have caught. When it's turned over to us, I feel that's the way they want it. Should the marble company have run the marble into the doorway 7/8"? I think so. They didn't. Should the super have called them back to do that? I think so. That would have stopped the whole problem. Is it my job to tell the super where to stop the marble? Not when he's running the job. That's his call.Thanks for the great point.Ed.
*Ed,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Someone had to know how to read the prints in order to instruct the electrician to place his wiring. Someone had to inspect the electrician's work so the next trade could begin. Someone had to read the prints to know the limits of the marble floor. Someone had to inspect the marble installer's work so the next trade could begin.That someone wasn't Ed.
*Ed, you obviously haven't been paying attention at all...For a reasonable fee, everything is Doug Hubbard's fault.b : )
*I shouldn't press that point too hard Ed, because the natural come-back will be "if you thought the marble should go to the middle of the door, why didn't you check with someone before you started to fix the timber?"I agree completely that the overall responsibility is with the builder.
*>The other issue is, did the electrician know the marble would stop at the jamb edge, or did he think it would stop where it usually does; under the middle of the door. Again the builders lack of communication with the stone and electrician installers. This is probably where it all started, one guy thinks this, another thinks that. In my experience when something like this happened we just (as GC) bit the bullet and fixed it. How many times have you guys tried to find the one who chipped the tub? You usually get the angelic "Who me? No man, not me. Must have been the plumber." response. This much more expensive, but the areas gray enough that the GC should bear the burden because of lack of direction, that's where the buck stops. Logically speaking that is (there's that nasty word again).
*This issue with the middle of the door thing bothers me. Should our carpenter have questioned the location of the marble and brought up that issue before proceeding? We are all intellegent people here, and shouldn't proceede when something is obviously wrong. The wires he couldn't see. That's a fact. The marble he could see. He saw it terminated at the wall line and not halfway under where the door would be. The termination point of a change in flooing is always halfway under a door. Those of us who have been doing this for years and years know that. This particular man has been at it only five years now and never as a superintendent of a job. We taught him his carpentry skills. I don't believe he should be expected to be as knowledgable as the real job super. His inxeperience with ALL things building may have lead him to believe that the marble stopping at the wall line was OK. I may have not caught that this soon if Greg hadn't brought it up first.So I still think it falls back on those in charge of supervising all the trades on the project.What a mess.Ed.
*Here's a liability issue I ran into a few years ago. We were reroofing a Tudor style home with a cathedral ceiling. Big beam-style rafters about 8 ft. apart. I warned the guys to be careful with the roof bracket spikes-to watch out that they don't drive through the ceiling(I've had that happen before.)Well, that was no problem, the deck was too thick for the spikes to go through.That evening I got an angry call from the homeowner, to come over right away and look at his cathedral ceiling. The ceiling between the beams was cracked at four foot intervals. Everywhere. Someone had installed drywall between the beams and mudded the joints without taping them.I explained to him that the defect was built in, that the mere action of working on the roof, stripping shingles, and reroofing, was doomed to crack the tapeless joints, and the liability was not mine. He disagreed, and wrote me a letter threatening legal action if I didn't fix it.I called my insurance company, they sent over an adjustor, and he cut a check to the guy, just like that. I called him to find out why, and he told me there was no liability on my part, but that it was not worth the trouble to fight the guy over the amount of the claim. Ed,I would imagine that the insurance companys will sort this out, and yours will pay at least a portion of the bill, and that you will be as disappointed in their pragmatic way of handling it as I was with mine.John
*This has all the classical ingredients of an accident: everything has to go wrong at the same time. If the electrician hadn't run the wires too far; if the mason hadn't run the mud past the line; if the carpenter had x-ray vision, he wouldn't have cut through the wires. This is one area in which the much mal-aligned DIYselfer has the advantage. He intimately knows where everything is buried and has an idea of what the next step or process is. But in construction, that is the job of the project manager or co=ordinator or whatever. My understanding is that in Japan, when they start a project, they have a meeting of all the trades and discuss all the rules and explain what is going where. Thus, it is established that the AC duct will run down above the corridor at a certain height and the electricians and plumbers will know in advance not to run their pipes thru that area. In my opinion, I would set the overall blame on the shoulders of the General Contractor since he is responsible for the overall co=ordination of the job and he failed to do so. The electrician should have knwn the limits for his wires but he merely had a blank subfloor to work on. The mortar man merely knew that he had to cover the wires. The carpenter knew wood and concrete can't occupy the same identical space, so he had to cut away the excess intruding mass. He is not expected to have x-ray vision.
*Yup, all (or most) of the above. But the electrician still ran his loops past the wall. What's his email address, we can get his take on this too. Joe H
*Why does the GC carry liability insurance if not for this exact situation? When there is damage that resulted from a lack of communication/knowledge between trades, seems like it has to be the fault of the next level up. The managers weren't managing. Ed's guy proceeded in the normal manner for the situation. If the managers told the guy to take special care there, he would have. You can't ask about special conditions, or talk to every sub involved, for every little conflict that occurs in the course of a workday. This should be the responsibility of the super. But I'd let the insurance guys fight it out. Mike
*Thanks everybody.I'll let you know if I get the call or not. For right now, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut and see what happens.Thanks again.It's been a productive weekend for me and this problem with the help of you fine people.Best Regards,Ed.
*is no news good news?
*Ed, If i was the guy doing the work, I wouldn't have just scored the wires...I'd have whacked them out completely. Because I'm a nice guy, I wouldn't bill for the mud overflow, nor the wire overflow. I certainly wouldn't be worrying about liability if the General instructed me to put wood there!If he tells me, I do it, no matter what I have to whack out of the way!blue
*So far, I've spoken to one of the GC partners about the floor who said he was going to have to find a way to pay for all of this. He never mentioned that I would be liable in any way. He brought up the subject, not me. The other GC partner never even brought the subject up to me, and we have spoken on numerous occasions. So far, they are doing the right thing.We'll see.Ed.
*Even so you have notified your insurance company haven't you? Memory says the insured has to notify the insuror promptly for the policy to be effective. Not sure if all policies are that way but the ones I have seen are. Sort of a heads-up with no action by them, at this time.
*I'd hold on reporting it to the insurance company until someone presents a claim to you. If you turn it in then, you are notifying them as soon as you are aware they are making a liability claim against you.The insurance company could only have a beef if you prejudiced their rights by delaying turning in a possible claim. Your policy will detail when you have to turn a claim in. I do not see how holding would prejudice their rights.By turning one in now, your insurance company would call the GC, and that would tip them off, and perhaps make them think you feel you should pay.2 cents from a Claims Manager for an Insurance Company.
*Chris,Thanks for the 2 cents.I'll hold fast for now.Ed.
*Ed, what is missing from my picture? Could you please explain to me why the wire can't be spliced? I know what you said about the warranty, but it just hasn't made sense to me that a simple wire cut would negate the warranty since wires can be spliced to go underwater, for heaven's sake. Did some flunky at the heating mat place say it couldn't be done and so no one pursued this idea any further? It sure would be nice to take up one tile and fix this problem easy-like after a call to the flunky's boss...
*Hey splints,I'm with you 100%. It doesn't make any sense to me either. If I were the builder, I'd splice them anyway. I can see nothing wrong with a braided splice that's soldered together. It's got to be as good as bare wire. If I were in charge of this, I'd be going after that in a big way.It must have something to do with the "radiant" part of the system. Maybe the wire won't put off heat near or around a splice. I really don't understand the entire process. I thought the last thing you want was to have electrical wires that put off heat. I'd love to get into the middle of it, but I have to stay as far away as possible right now.Ed.
*If you're in the clear on the liabiliity so far (and you certainly should be), it would not be a smart time to be an instigator. Breaking up all that marble for a wire splice, though..i want to go around muttering something philosophical and profane all at once. I really get what you were saying about the pursuit of the impossible/extraordinary in the bench thread, but this sounds like just exuberant waste for no reward. Oh, well, can't see it from my hovel... I wonder if the manufacturer of the heating cable has an endless wire spool from which to work, hmm? It'd be interesting to know if there are other splices already in the floor from the factory.
*This is not plain copper wire, but a resistive wire. A spice might have problems with localize heating and compatibility problems with the splice material.
*Guess I must have missed something. Although you didn't say so I assumed there was some claim against you, just hadn't been made formal yet. That is why my comment about telling your insurance company.But after rereading the thread it now looks like you were(are?) just having an anxiety attack. You sure don't want to tell anyone about that!
*FredB,Yes, it has been in the back of my mind now but only about 24hrs a day.Sweating in Texas (and I dn't mean the heat).Ed.
*Just a couple of points;Its' easier for the heating company to say it's all got to come out -- they get twice the workIt's dangerous joining a heating cable -- a bit like, oh I dunno -- a bit like trying to splice an electric blanket
*Agreed that it doesn't sounds like the heating cable company has much incentive.I dissected that blanket and there are splices in it...i just couldn't find the right gizmos to replace the ones that made the sizzling/popping sounds. Now i say this from the bottom of my heart, Ian: GOD SAVE THE QUEEN! ;^)
*May a thousand camels fart in your bed
*I'd hold on reporting it to the insurance company until someone presents a claim to you. If you turn it in then, you are notifying them as soon as you are aware they are making a liability claim against you.The insurance company could only have a beef if you prejudiced their rights by delaying turning in a possible claim. Your policy will detail when you have to turn a claim in. I do not see how holding would prejudice their rights.By turning one in now, your insurance company would call the GC, and that would tip them off, and perhaps make them think you feel you should pay.2 cents from a Claims Manager for an Insurance Company.
*Chris,Thanks for the 2 cents. I'll sit tight.Ed.
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I probably should have started a new thread but there is already a liability insurance thread in the business folder where I put my question.
If you would be so kind as to look over there, I would really like to hear what some of you who don't visit the business section have to say about my marble floor situation.
Thanks,
Ed.