After reading Bosses dilema…I had to post my own. Although this isnt a huge problem.
Two months ago I met with a client on a maple stairway. The contractor and the owner went over some of my pictures. Anyway..the owner picks out a newel..but said the 3.5 inch was too small. “Make them just like the picture..but make them 4 inches instead.” I explained that I would get back with them on a price as these would have to be custom turned.,,,8 of them.
A week later I get a fax with the newel circled in the twisted rope version..and a note saying to please comment. I checked my newel turner and he could not do these. I checked several places and to no luck. I called back and left a message stating that I could not find a supplier as of yet. I received a call from one of the salesman…saying to go ahead with the plainer newels.
My first mistake is I didnt write the guys name down..and I never had this confirmed by fax. So…I ordered the 8 newels custom turned to the 4 inch size. Last week I installed the stairway…and as I was commuting 90 miles to my home..I get a call…..”WE have a big problem” the contractor told me. “They wanted rope twist newels.” I did the best I could to remember what all I conversations had been over this newel issue…while I am driving looking like a steer who had been hit in the head.
I said let me check my notes …and I will call back tomorrow. I checked my notes…and I could not prove our conversations had existed about the go ahead to turn the plainer style. I could dig in…and make it ugly…or I could just deal with it and learn to have everything signed off from now on. I told the contractor that I was absolutely clear in my mind that I had the green light to have those custom newels as I supplied. I also said our contract stated that I was to supply the newels custom turned to the owners specifications. I explained that these are not “turned” but “milled” newels.
Now the contractor started breathing heavy…and I said “But wait…I want the owner to get what I know they thought they wanted. I will somehow make those 8 newels with a rope twist pattern if I have to gauge them out myself.”
So…..I searched…and I searched…and I finally found someone that can do it. I have to pay a $300 set up fee for them to set up their cnc machine…then its only $18 a newel to have them turned. I of course have to go de install the newels…ship them..then re install them.
Now the contractor is wanting to know what this is going to cost me…and I said…”Dont worry about it…I said I would handle it”
I said this with a smile…and now he is wanting to pay. I wont except it…and if it is added into my last payment…I will give it to a needy person. I am accepting the mistake…as I didnt exactly follow up with a direct sign off from either the contractor or the owner.
Now what gets my goat…is the owner says the 3.5 inch newels like I showed them would have been fine. I could have had those factory newels in less than a week..at half the price…go figure.
Its not all perfect out here…but even after an irritating glitch like this…I still feel very lucky how seldom this happens. I just was getting too complacent with verbal agreements.
Edited 2/18/2004 6:20:25 AM ET by Stan Foster
Replies
Stan,
Stories like this are the ones that when they happen to me I want to close the doors. I always remember at times like that the saying "if it were easy everyone would be in business". Anyway a real stand up way to handle it. But no surprise really as I already knew you were that kind of guy anyway. By the way, in case he pays you I am a needy person. :-) DanT
I've had my share of these verbal conversations gone bad too.
Don't really know what to say. If the contractor wanted to pay in this case, I would have offered to split the cost with them.
When I'm suspicious that details are getting missed or wires are getting crossed, I try to get the people involved together to go over the layout and stuff. I'll politely tell 'em that there have been so many changes I want to meet to make sure we're all on the same page.
Sure is easy to have a misunderstanding over little details, though.
I believe in dragons, good women and other mythological creatures.
This is sort of off the subject, but sounds like it is a result of a cell phone conversation. It is one of my concerns that doing business by cell, especially when you are called while driving, busy or ? , your mind is not engaged fully and it may be hard or impossible to take notes. I've learned to be aware and either call back or take enough notes to put them down properly.
That's why I'm glad that most of my communication is through email! It's written in their own words. Of course, I gotta learn how to read...
good point... when i have telephone conversations like the one stan is referring to.. i always ask them to confirm our conversation by fax, email, or letter...
if we are face to face i usually make a note in my daily planner and we both sign it..
this is easy to do... i just explain that my brain is a sieve.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
bob: You made me stop and shake my head. I was on a cellphone...and you are probably correct. It just didnt register in my head.
This almost never happens...I am not going to lose money by noe means on the job. So...I figure coming out of my pocket...it will REGISTER in my head real good.
Sounds like this is going to be costly to you, somewhat in materials, but more so in labor time. I think you might want to proceed as you have planned, but have a pointed conversation with the builder (not a salesmen) about how much business this builder intends to give you in the future. Then plan on recouping the costs on the next several jobs for them.
Likewise, if the builder pays you the extra amount, tell him you will give him a small break on the next few jobs. I gotta think that the amount of money involved in the snafu is somewhat small compared to the overall job bid, but you are a true artisan and deserve to be well compensated for your creations.
Another idea, although possibly out of the norm, is to ask to have a brief meeting with the actual HO, to find out what they really want, and obviously, get it in writing, but again, proceed with your plan.
I just have a policy that when I say something..I am bound to it. I told the contractor I failed to document this change..I cant prove it..and I am going to foot the cost.
Its only $500 or so...plus a days labor....so its not going to make or break me. Actually..should the contractor surprise me with extra on the last payment...I am looking forward to helping a certain person with it. When you stop and think about it...$500 to someone who is destitute...is like most of us getting $10000 or even a lot more.
Hey Stan,
I had one like that about a dozen years ago but it involved custom acoustical ceiling tile.
Real good commercial contractor was our costumer ( we sold building products ) and they had a new estimator/salesman who got a quote from us for a large order of different colored high end ceiling tile. We gave him a good quote on the price and checked with the factory concerning when they wood be making their next run on these colors. Factory says four to six week lead time.
Fortunately for us, we as inside sales wrote up all our quotes. Five weeks later the same estimator calls us back and says he wants all the custom tile delivered the next day. WOOOOOHHH!!!! We tell him no way!! It will take weeks to get that in. He goes ballistic on us and tells us he has it marked down on his calendar and if the ceiling tile is not delivered by tomorrow his job will fall behind schedule and his company will be liable for $5000.00 per day back charge for not meeting completion deadline. He says we are now liable for this charge and wants in writing our accepting this.
Needless to say we got the principles of both companies involved and quickly explained that no one from our costumer ever ordered the material. All we ever gave was a quote. Cooler heads quickly prevailed and realized this guy just forgot to make the order.
Needless to say I know where you are coming from! It is real tough to just sit back and be cool, calm and collected when some one else's screw up is putting big heat on you.
I feel for you on this one bro-- but you did the right thing when you stepped up to the plate and put your own money behind your work. The contractor's response to this shows you now have made a loyal costumer out of this sorry affair.
Documentation--Documentation--DOCUMENTATION!!!!!
Cork in Chicago
Ya know, one of the best things about participating in this message board has been finding out that this same kind of crap happens to everybody, not just me.Having control over myself is nearly as good as having control over others.
Hey Boss Hogg,
In reply to >>>>>>>
Ya know, one of the best things about participating in this message board has been finding out that this same kind of crap happens to everybody, not just me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
You bet it does. But when you are dealing with all the $hit that goes along with this type of problem is where the pros seperate themselves from the wannabes. In the case I mentioned we (those of us in our company) put our heads together and came up with several strategies to try to mitigate any downside to our custumer, but the estimators rigid insistence that we go on the hook for $5000.00 dollars a day blew all our plans out of the water.
It is in exactly these types of situations that people's real character comes out. Those who dodge around and try to shift any negative consequences from a problem to other people never come out ahead in the long run. A wise man ( Jeff Haley ) who is a general partner and head of estimating and sales dept. for a company I worked for in Dallas once told me " A man's reputation always proceeds him". Truer words have never been spoken.
People who are "straight shooters", and "upright" business men are those who will prosper. These qualities show, and people will always want to surround themselves with these type of people.
SOOO-- Don't get down about taking a small shafting. By working on how your particular problem came about, you are already on your way to "living and LEARNING" from past mistakes and moving on. The people in your company are obviously going to put their heads together and tighten things up so something like this doesn't slip through the cracks again and bite you in the heinie yet another time.
Have a good one,
Cork in Chicago
Serious class there Stan and I wouldn't worry about the lost money on this one. You can't buy a reputation but you can sure eat enough cost ever now and then to earn one.
If I could I'd put money on that cash finding its way back into your pocket - probably within the year and with interest.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I actually feel like I am glad it happened. It shows if I am trying to accept the responsibility.
Now...dont get me wrong....I have had some changes put on me on purpose...If I can prove it without a doubt...I will stand firm and not budge a nickle. And I dont care if I burn a bridge on future work with these type of people.
Just another comment. I am very easy going..and this trait over the years has benefited me far more than it has hurt. I dont worry about much...roll with the punches...and am very content.
I am not getting rich....but thats not what my life is about. As long as I can pay my bills without my wife seeking outside employment, then I have met my goal. I will say I still have a passion for this business. It fits my personality. If I was a stressed out..impatient type...I would not have any business building stairways for my occupation..or even worse...flying gyrocopters when I am relaxing.
"Just another comment. I am very easy going..and this trait over the years has benefited me far more than it has hurt. I dont worry about much...roll with the punches...and am very content.
I am not getting rich....but thats not what my life is about. As long as I can pay my bills without my wife seeking outside employment, then I have met my goal. I will say I still have a passion for this business. It fits my personality. If I was a stressed out..impatient type...I would not have any business building stairways for my occupation..or even worse...flying gyrocopters when I am relaxing."
I'm going to print this out and tape it up next to the bed. Maybe put a copy on the rear view mirror too.
Stan, My hats off to you! DW and I just decided to pay our associate his commission for a sale he made where the seller stiffed us on the commission. I made the decision to trust the guy and take him at his word. Our associate did his work as agreed. I don't see what else a guy can do in a situation like that.
I'm not sure the exact words, but I think Malcome Forbes was quoted as saying something to the effect that it's better to occasionally be taken advantage of than to go through life expecting the worst from others.
My own take is that it doesn't make a difference whether or not anyone ever hears about what you do in this vein and it doesn't make any difference whether it ever "comes back to you". Acting according to your values is what earns you your own respect. Nothing means more than that.
Something is what it does.
Funny how the difference between ...
an honest misunderstanding ... and a "dishonest" misunderstanding ..
can make all the difference in the world ...
I've eaten much more than that $500 backing up my word and rep when I've even felt 1/2 responsible ...
and I've fought tooth and nail for a fraction of that $500 when I've smell someone trying to steal food off my kids plate ...... even before I had a kid!
I know it's not "business like" ... but I never really consider a lost day of labor to be lost cash. Call it charity work .. advertising ... what ever. No biggie if I'm the one that chose to be there.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff: It all boils down to the principle of the thing. I failed to document our conversation in writing....the owner wants those rope newels.....I am going to pay for them...
It goes the other way as well...like you said...dishonest misunderstandings. A few years ago...a fellow co-worker and a jerk....asked to borrow $3 from me for lunch. He was always promising to pay back people and never did. If he had asked me for $3 cause he was down and out...I would have gladly given it to him. But knowing how he was...I told him I would loan him the $3 ,,but I wanted it back ..and I would ask him everday for it until I did get it back. Well...you can guess...the next day I waited till quitting time..and asked him for my $3. "Oh,,,I forgot" Next day...I asked again...same answer....this went on for a week....finally he threw the $3 on the floor and said I was a horses axle. I just replied..."coming from you..that was a compliment. He went on to new people to stiff.
Edited 2/19/2004 10:10:41 PM ET by Stan Foster
This customer said like this only bigger, then added rope, then said OK no rope then complained that the rope wasn't included, then after costing you ( the true cost of somethijng like this was in the stomach, NOT THE POCKETBOOK) some big bucks and gutache, he tries to be nice saying, Oh the basic post would have been just fine.
There is another lesson here beyond the documentation thing.
That is to ask yourself what key signs there might have been to read in the customer's mannerisms and communication style that might have telegraphed to you that he was flakey enough to change details around so much like that. The documentation is the objective part, but the instinctive reading people is a subjective skill that is just as important too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin: I have always had a street sense to my clients. The more little red flags that pop up..the more cautious I get...such as more money up front....more wording in the contract,...etc.
In this case....I delt through a third party salesman...who at the time I errored in thinking they had some say so. I again did not request back up confirmation that I could prove. Now everyone is backing away ...and I am just making this situation tolerable to the client and contractor. The client honestly believes they always wanted the rope newels. I have no doubt...and thats why I am dealing with it. Its not going to break me...and actually the way I bid my stairways...is just coming out of the "unforseen problems" that I always add in to my bids. I figure on stairways costing around $20000...if I cant add $1000 cushion for problems..then I am bidding way too tight.
So....you kind of said it best.....the true cost of this is to my stomach/credability.....rather than just my wallet. I still am making good money on the stairs...and after talking to the contractor yesterday....I have won his utmost respect for how I am handling this. I find this far more of value than any time and material I lost.
Like I said earlier...this is just a little slap on my head to not be so complacent. I have been on a long good roll for too long...and actually a person needs a little slap once in awhile to avoid a total KO on a really serious problem.
Edited 2/20/2004 6:34:28 AM ET by Stan Foster
Well, take my pat on the back along with that slap to the forehead, a little honey to sweeten the tea.
if you can't respect yourself, who else can ever respect you?
You've got it right
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
if it makes ya feel any better ...
personally .. I'd be requesting and expecting full payment on this deal ...
I'd expect they're salesguy to be capable of his job ...
I'd take this chance to be the "primadona carpenter" or what ever they decided to tag me with ...
Not saying you aren't 100% smarter than me here ... just saying what I know I'd do!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff: My word is my bond. I already told the contractor that it will not cost him one dollar more. I failed in my part to back up what I knew was ok'd verbally and then have this backed up by a signed document.
The contractor is eating out of my hand literally right now as to how I am handling this. My guess is he got to the bottom of this and is now feeling guilty. He made a comment yesterday that when it is all said and done...everyone will be happy.
I am still standing by my word that "IF" I receive more than the contract says...I will give that to a needy person. I am hoping to god that he does pay me more...but I am not going to request it by whining..or demanding. If it is given freely to me...I will likewise pass it on. I am rather enjoying my mistake. I really believe that I will get a lot more out of this than a few bucks lost.
Stan
Edited 2/21/2004 6:59:12 AM ET by Stan Foster
Edited 2/21/2004 7:00:21 AM ET by Stan Foster