Good afternoon Lads and Lassies,
My wife and I had an un-insulated addition put on our un-insulated camp…becoming…cottage this past summer. I approached a high-school friend contractor…oh-oh…about doing the work. The contract was signed at Christmas, to be completed by the end of April. Things ran late..aka…he found bigger and better fish to fry…but on the whole, at the end of June, he and his team did a great job.
We have one contentious point. The plan called for electric heat…to take the chill off the early spring and fall mornings. There is a gas fireplace to provide heat once we get there. The BI arrives to do the inpection…hauls out the code book…No Electric Heat without insulation, vapour barrier,etc…Gas fieplace can stay…grandfathered..blah, blah…
Contractor syas we can back the wires out of the panel, cover the switch plates and receptacles…and once it passes the final…He can call the elctrician back in to pull the hidden wires and hook up the electrical…as the electrician states that there is nothing in his code book that makes him check for insulation when adding heating circuits to an existing panel.
Fingers crossed..we agree..and all goes according to plan. I contact the Insurance company..and they have no problem with heat in an uninsulated space. My thinking is that it must come from the 70’s when the cost of electricity started to rise…so it is more of a conservation issue than one of safety….
..Which brings me to the contentious point. Who should pay. I asked the electrical contractor to keep separate the cost of backing out the heating cables and refishing them through…comes to about $400 Hard Earned Canadian dollars. My contractor says that since it was such an obscure section of the Building Code …the BI agrees…So why did he enforce it?….he does not think that he should have to pay the extra $400. As the cottage owner, I was as unaware as the GC and BI was of this, but I hired a contractor to get the submit the plan to the municipality, get the permits, do the work and come over for BBQ at the end.
I know that it is only $400 on a $43,000 job…but, as a matter of principle…who should pay.
Thanks for any input that you can provide……. Quinhead
P.S. Will provide pics once I can figure out my digital camera…so don’t hold your water.
Replies
your GC...the scope of work defined a completed project...right?
was the project complete before final inspection?...NO
the GC has not completed his obligation until the project is complete.
I'd say split the difference-sounds like a little used part of the code.
the contract had a section called scope of work.
That scope of work mentioned insulation or it did not. If it diod not include insulation, he is not requiired to insulate to fulfill the contrat, unless perhaps the same contract specificed precisely that the final payumemnt would not be made until it recieved final inspection and CO.
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Piffin
I dont think he's asking about the insulation, as far as I can read he's not planning on insulating.
Just the cost to have the electrician do his thing.
Doug
I know - I probably should have expalined my thinking more thoroughly...The HO is doing something to skirt the law.He is doing it to save perhaps thousands on insulation.which means of course that he will waste thousands over the years on eneregy and excess maintanance.So why should it be a concern to spend a lousy four hundred to skirt the law? There is a possibility that he could someday be paying a fine larger than that.The re-wireing is an extra unless it was specifgied in the contract that the job needed to pass final inspection before final payment.
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Paul,
It's a three season porch. Uninsulated.
He want's a little heat to warm it up on the cool mornings.
Who's to tell him he can't have it?
I think it's silly and a waste of good energy and dollars but what the heck?
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Did this job go thru plan check and permitting with the electric heater and the lack of insulation clearly shown? If it did, and the plan checker did not 'red-line' the drawings indicating the conflict, then you should pay. I guess I need more info about what's on the plans and what's not, and what's in the contract and what's not.
I try to know all the code, but of course I don't. My contracts include a very detailed scope of work. Then, there's a section of exclusions. One of those exlusions covers the possibility that the plan-checker red-lines something that requires added work. Another covers the possibility that an inspector comes along and requires more work. My contract also states that no part of the scope of work is binding if it's found to be in conflict with building code, manufacturer's recommendations, etc. etc. So, you would actually have had to get someone else to come in and do that heater, and I would have refunded you whatever I had in the job for it. But, you couldn't have made me eat the heater.
You should offer to split the $400. If this is the biggest issue you have, you got off quite easy. Many people deal with huge cost overruns on jobs. A good friend of mine in another state started a job at about $90,000 and ended up at $130,000 due to problems caused by his architect, poor estimating by his contractor, and unforeseen conditions found during demo and excavation. He had planned to get a new Harley... but that's not happening now.
Edited 1/4/2006 5:50 pm by davidmeiland
no wonder my Harley stock value is down!
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>>no wonder my Harley stock value is down!
Thats funny. I bought 10 K worth of harley stock a week before 9-11. I'm still sitting on it.
So that's all that when awry on a $43k job.
My man, go outside and kiss the earth, stand up and shout allehlulla (sp)!!
You're funny.
Dude, eat the 4 hundred buck, c'mon, we gotta learn to pick our fights.
How much time have you spent on this issue of the four hundred stinking lousy dollars. Probably over budget allready.
Light the fire place and enjoy.
Let a balloon float up to the sky.
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I'm going to differ with those who say to eat it.
Since you hired a contractor (i.e. a professional) to submit plans, procure permit, and perform the work he is liable.
Yes, it may be an obscure section but isn't that one of the risks of being a contractor? This was not a hidden condition that a reasonable person could not forsee, so the onus is on the contractor to be prepared.
$400 is not alot for you to eat but at the same time it's not a lot for the contractor either.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Four hundred bucks ain't a lot to eat? Must be nice...must be very, very nice!Coming to you from beautiful Richmond, Va.
all this talk about 400 being "nothing to eat"...."you should feel lucky"...."you got off easy"...."go outside and kiss the earth"...."four hundred stinking lousy dollars"....is ridiculous.
what do other peoples construction budget woes have to do with this? why should he pay an additional 400 bucks just because others have paid significantly more on their overruns?
you guys take your work very seriously and rightfully so. i cannot count how many times i read posts about how you are paid for not only what you can do but what you know. you guys are pros and are hired as such. it is not the HOs job to know the building codes...that is why he hired a pro. being a pro is not only bragging about your knowledge and charging for it but also knowing when to "man up" when you miss an element. it is impossible for a job to be complete without inspection approval. who would be responsible if the inspection failure was related to framing earlier in the project? does the HO pay for framing errors? why should this error be his burden? it doesn't matter if it is 5, 500, or 5000 dollars.
Maybe he should tell his electrician that he will pay him to do it and then not.
Then he can start another thread, or possibly his electrician will.
For all he got done he should be grateful this is all that went wrong.
You must miss all the thread berating the scumbag contractors who ripped off the unsuspecting homeowners.
duh
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
.......You are right...I should count my blessings that that is all that went wrong...I have seen and heard of some beauties... when they know that your only option is to sue....and their reply is.....Get in Line....OK, So maybe I'll give him $400 worth of SPA certificates for his wife...she will love me even more...he will get me back though...when he over charges me on the house down by the Bay.
............Quinhead
I was on a bit of a tear tonight...........your right in principle at the very least.
I just don't think it's a big issue.
Tell him you'll gladly give him an honest shot at the other job and giv'em $200.00.
He'll be happy.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
that is my whole point eric, other projects and there shortcomings and budget overruns have NOTHING to do with this guys project. he could care less if his neighbor had 30K in unexpected costs.
its the old...if johnny jumped off the bridge...you know the rest.
just because others are paying for added costs is not justification for this guy to pay added costs. these situations need to be handled on a case by case basis...not "the jones' had 2 grand in overruns so i should just happily part with my 400".
if 400 is chump change to you, i'll gladly releave you of your burden
mcf,
With this GC being an old friend, and since he lives near the cottage...his wife winks at me...his 2 year-old drools on me...I am going to let it ride. Not worth the agro...But, you are right....if it is only $400, then why doesn't he pay for it....or split the difference....or double or nothig....oh oh....not allowed to gamble.
......Quinhead
I,m going to play stupid here. Why not just insulate the place, if you do it yourself, its not that hard or expensive. 2+3=7
That was my first point. It'll pay for itself ecomnomicly and think of the added comfort. Four bills will buy a lot of insulation
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Well I'm a GC and I would have told you to insulate the place just in case you ever wanted to use it year round, more work for us more money, maybe your guy did to, I don't know.
If the contract doesn't include insulating then you pay for the fix.
Pretty simple really,be thankful that the electrician is willing to try to put one over on the building dept. I wouldn't ,I have to deal with them all the time and the risk of pissing one of them off isn't worth it to me. Vince Carbone
You and Piffin humor me, perhaps teach me something, and along the way verify something as well.
The original structure intended for SEASONAL use is NOT insulated, the adittion added to it had no insulation planned.
If the original structure is uninsulated, why bother with the adittion?
Is there some code that actually dis-allows heat in an uninsulated structure such as we are discussing?
Thanks,
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I don't think the national energy code distinquishes between seasonal and year-round tho some localities still do. but they rely on the localities to enforce for them. officially, everyone enforces the code on insulation for the feds, but in preactice, some do and some don't.Now - I think this one was in the State of Canadia where a whole different set of rules apply, but I know they get serious about the energy codes up there, as a general rule, which makes sense considering how cold it gets.does it make sense in this case - maybe not.But what happens in the great majority of cases where the seasonal owner says he will never need to uinsulate and heat, he eventually wants some heat, so he adds insulation sooner or later anyway. Another step down the road and the place gets sold to a newcopmer who assumes that it was not only heated, but properly insulated, especially since, "Hey look, the records show it was built after 19XX so the energy codes were in effect so it must have been done right..."
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Understood, thanks.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Eric the code basically states if an area is to be heated, it needs to comply with the energy code.
true enough, and that is your call. i won't begrudge anyone for their personal decisions.
i just have a problem with the prevailing attitude that you should just suck it up because it is ONLY $400.
>> i just have a problem with the prevailing attitude that you should just suck it up because it is ONLY $400. <<
That's a 1% overage. I'm not a remodeler, rather work building new homes, but I suspect that in the remodeling field, that's a number to be proud of. I'd guess that every remodeling project has overages of at least that number - the only variables being if the contractor priced the project to absorb such costs, and if there was a contract in place with wording to cover such instances. The fact is that the HO got the extra services based on what he wanted - no insulation and electric heat. I'm not a hard nosed business type though, that is why I suggested that the cost overage be split among the parties who caused the situation, and it's also probably a pretty good indicator of why I'm not in business for myself.
Here is the bottom line though, which applies to new construction even more-so: If you want to treat buying a $40K home improvement or having a house built like buying a commodity like a new car or a hamburger, go buy an existing house. If you want to hire someone to perform a project that is going to take 3 - 6 months to complete, expect some variances. These processes are a little more complicated than cutting out paper dolls.
Did the contract have a clause for "When we Go Around Code".I imagine not. The GC was kind enough to offer you a way out of your compliance/project goals conflict. It did require some extra work and I might add, puts him on the line for responsibility should someone find out. He had no obligation to go against code, his job was to build you a three season room. Last I knew, people cannot be contracted to break the law.In the end you got what you wanted, you were billed for the extra labor, you owe. You pay up.
Checks on the way, just don't try to cash it any time soon.
You're right, as I said previously, in principle.
But there is a time to make a move and move on.
Just my opinion.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
i agree...i would probably weigh my options and pay the money to get everything done.
but what is the fun of a message bored if we don't argue inane points.
By the time we all get done discussing this the situation could be remedied.
Hardly worth it in my book.
Find a solution.
Pay the electrician the 4 bills and move on, lite the fire and relax.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I think there's more to this story. I'm having a problem believing that a plan set showing electric heating somehow got thru the review without someone noticing the lack of insulation.
Dave45,
Our contractor took our rough sketch and drew plans for the addition to present to the Municipality for approval. The contract stated the electrical work to be done and the amount of the allowance. He also questioned why no insulation, but as a summer place, why insulate...because when the fall comes...it is time to put her away for the winter. If I had known that we could not have electric heat with no insulation, then I would not have put it in.
I questioned the GC about how the permit to begin construction could be issued, when I thought all were aware about the plans to not insulate. He really did not answer the question and assured me that this backing out of the heating cables...final inspection in June...and electrical heaters hooked up in the early fall, was not breaking any codes. I think that if I had pushed it further with the municipality, some '$h!T' may have been raised...and he has to work with this BI and approval process again.
We have a septic system on the 2 acre unsubdividable property that can handle up to 5 more bedrooms. We plan on building a retirement home on the Bay, when and if Freedom 55 ever comes. That 'Home' will be insulated.
As others have mentioned, I have taken up too much of my time with this issue, not to mention yours and others. I think that I will let it ride. $400 is not too bad when I consider the other stories I have heard. Thanks for your input.
Now, where did I put that beer........Quinhead
OK, that contract stated a certain 'allowance' for the electrical. if this extra electrical work exceeds that amount, you get to pay for it, clear as a bell.
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I don't know if I have ever seen insulation drawn in on a plan. Most I can think of is a note stating how much - that is unless it was a non-typical insulation detail
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I don't know if I have ever seen insulation drawn in on a plan.
...which is exactly what I think happened. My GC did not think to mention it, the Permit issuer assumed that there was going to be insulation...because really...what Mo would not insulate.....Cue Me....anyway....along comes BI...who admits that it is a relatively obscure section of the code...but code none-the-less...and this guy is known as a stickler...which is good...so now I have a great story to tell my grandkids.....except for one thing....we have no kids....so not only do I not have insulation in my walls...I think my Dad messed up on the Birds and the Bees...which I think is at the root of all my problems.
But I digress...Thanks for your advice.......Quinhead
Every plan for an addition or renovation that i've ever gotten back from the inspector was stamped something to the effect that: "an insulation inspection is required before drywall".
More to the question though, I believe that insulation is represented on a plan by a corragated looking line in between the studs. if not on the main plan then maybe in a detail drawing on the side.
Insulation values are shown on pretty much all the plans I see, and we have a separate insulation inspections here too. The building department is concerned enough about insulation that they have red stamps that say R-21 and R-30 and R-38 and they stamp your plans for you indicating what is required. Any heated space needs insulation.
They also make you fill out a worksheet calculating the percentage of wall area taken up by windows, and factor the U-value into that.
Joey, of course if you came to me asking for $400, and I had no idea who you were, I would say no. I've done a lot of things for $400 (or less).My point to those who said he should eat the overage was that the same logic that they utilized ("you should be glad $400 is the only problem you've had") works to support that the contractor should honor his contract.As I see this thread developing, maybe the contractor has already honored what was agreed upon and this is truly an extra but either way the pro is responsible.On the flip side, $400 is small potatoes for the OP to pay to keep a friendship. He will have to determine a balance and, based on his responses so far, I have a feeling he will make a wise decision.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I got your point Jon. I was just being a smart**s!Coming to you from beautiful Richmond, Va.
Joey, they're Canadian bucks.
Actual retail value about $12.50.
Joe H
"Joey, they're Canadian bucks.
Actual retail value about $12.50."
But he said they were "hard earned"
I say split the cost. It was your bad idea (I assume it was your idea - heat with no insulation), but his bad for agreeing to it.
....My wife's idea actually...but I will deny that till the day I die...if I know what is good for me. The original 16 x 20 camp/cottage had no insulation...anywhere. So not only do we have to insulate the new 16 x 22 addition and the 10 x 6 breezeway, but the floors, walls and open concept ceilings of the existing cottage. I put that 3/4" pine on the walls and ceiling, so I know that it will not come off without a fight. Did not even bother to get a quote, as all it would do is add 1-2 weeks on either end of the summer season, and it is fall or early spring, and too cold to be out or in.
So you are right...my bad.
You have drawn up what could be called a 'plans trap'. A situation where a very basic and very 'taken for granted' code issue is hidden on the plans by an act of omission. The insulation wasn't drawn in.
Normally the , building department, GC or the electrical contractor would catch this. Were the plans submitted for a plans review and approval? Not that that gives you clearance if they don't catch it. Most departments won't play this sort of games. Theirs is a backstop roll and code compliance is mandatory if they catch it or not.
Part of this issue may have come about by your relying on "a high-school friend contractor" as opposed to open market, hardball, and a more critical bid and cross-check process. The process would have likely caused the issue to surface earlier.
You don't mention how the electrical contractor (EC) was selected. Perhaps this is a function of "his team". If so it shakes out like this: You appeal to "high-school friend contractor" who goes with his normal guy as a matter of convenience, habit and familiarity. The electrical contractor goes along to remain part of the team and to 'go along'.
If this was a normal bid and contract process for both the GC and EC I would be leaning to having the EC eat it or, in your role as HO, just leaving it as a bone of contention between the GC and EC. As long as it gets built to plan why should you care about who pays for it? As long as it's not you.
But this wasn't a normal brass tack, long paper, stubby pencil, stony looks process. You soft balled it. When you got to or implied the 'come on buddy how about giving an old friend a break' line you changed the rules. And now that that process has hit a snag you want to play by another set of rules. In essence your wanting it both ways.
If you wish to play 'gotcha' with the guys you talked into a friendly job then demand they, GC or EC, pay for it. Expect the general mood to sour and this to be the beginning of a more formalized relationship. It is probably late enough in the job that there isn't much real down side but the 'happy and friendly' job will end. You can give up on any 'while your here can you do me a favor' extras. Expect more slack on cleanup and less slack on scheduling. If it's not convenient well sorry we will get to it in a month or two.
Depending on how much pride the EC has and how badly they take it, a lot of this depends on how much they padded the price, A function of how much they brought into your 'friendly' job shtick, you could end up with a absolute code minimum product. Lots of ways a EC can cut corners and legally get away with it. They start with the cheapest devices they can find and get the helper to push wire them. Saves a few dollars per receptacle. The legal minimum of outlets in the least accessible places they can put them if they wish to be vindictive. They can make up a good part of that $400 your boning them out of.
If I was you I would strongly consider coughing up the $400. You could negotiate a deal but likely the GC is arranging a price break at $400. Asking won't hurt anything. They may have $200 of padding.
$400 isn't much given the overall costs. $400 to a electrical contractor is a substantial hit to his bottom line. In some areas that is a weeks take home pay for a journeyman. A bitter pill for a job they were just going along with to help someone out.
In the end you were going to pay for the addition. It isn't like your not getting anything for the $400. The structure will likely feel more comfortable with insulation. Playing gotcha and making someone else pay for your insulation isn't fair even if you could force the issue.
I wouldn't try to get an inspection and then go back and install the electric heat. Inspectors in our area often go back and check. They know all the dodges and know how to spot them. Get caught and things might get ugly. Go that way and you may wish you had paid twice the $400.
Quin, you seem to be taking all this in in the proper spirit. Congrats to you.
"If I had known that we could not have electric heat with no insulation, then I would not have put it in."
You could have still exercised that option when you decided to make the changes. Instead of backing the stuff out, then re-installing it, you could have removed it all. That probably would have been much cheaper than the $400 and then I would agree that you should not eat any of it. Because you re-installed the heat, you are now benefitting from the re-work.
Nothing peeves a contractor more than to do re-work, then not get paid.
You should have been informed about the $400 upcharge before they did the work. Did you agree to it then? If you didn't discuss the upcharge, then I'd agree that you have a legitimate beef. You may have decided to forego the electrical work and put the money towards insulation. If they didn't let you make the informed decision and made it for you, you have a good argument for not paying.
Since this is a friend, your probably going to either test your friendship or accept this as a life lesson.
$400 overage on a 45k job is not really that big of a deal. Consider yourself lucky and put this thing to bed. Don't let the money spoil your new crib! You're going to be there every summer for the next 40 years. That's ten dollars per year. That equates to about 2 cents per day. Two cents isn't worth losing sleep or friends over.
blue
When we do plans we include an energy compliance certificate (rescheck) a dept. of energy software program. The code officials in N.Y. always ask for it. It is close to impossible to get an electric heated house to be code compliant even with insulation.
We have a real winner for an electrical inspector in this town. The guy never fails to come up with a reinspection fee- $45 lousy bucks, but multiply that by just about everything he looks at! This time it was an outlet he was looking for next to the hot air heating system that was installed in the basement of the addition we had completed. The contract called for 4 lights with a switch in the new basement area- that's it. The electrical contractor shows me the code that says an outlet must be within 25'-0 of the furnace- we had one 20'-0 away ,so that code was satisfied. I went to the inspectors office to complane and the BI, who understood my impatience with the EI, wanted to know why the electrician didn't come in. I told him one way or another this guys reinspections were costing us working people our money. It's my time now, or the electrician's later, I told him. The electrician then went, on his own time and expense, and threw in the outlet. We both knew that sadly, it would take more time to argue about it and this inspector thrives on getting people PO'd.
I think that your contractor's electrician could step up to the plate like mine did. He's the one doing the electrical work- if anyone is expected to know the code on electrical, the ball's obviously in his court. What's up with his $400- that's just the price he say's it's worth to pull the cicuit out of the box and the wall.
I think you believe your contractor should pay because he took $42K from you and you say you had a barbeque for him when it was done, and were patient when he got a bigger job going and you felt like second fiddle and waited 2 months extra.
The electrical inspector in this town is a piece of work, I as a general contractor can't supply anything he wants out of my pocket to feed his ego and won't. The customer finds out the EI that's supposed to be helping make sure they are safe, is just looking out for himself in the form of his reinspection fee. So if the electrician, who's work he is inspecting, doesn't want to be a nice guy and step up- that's your problem. Go complain to the inspector yourself, or ask him to pass you because you got what you wanted to pay for. You fed your contractor at that barbeque, so don't forget you were happy with him. As for me, there won't be any doubt who I call to do my electrical work.
I think you are misreading this, the electrician did not screw up. It is an insulation issue. The GC is who you should be referring to. If I had done a 42k job for a friend I would not even think about eating 400, it would have been done before he had to ask.
I really think the equitable thing is for the HO and GC to split it and move on and not risk a friendship. Working for friends is scarry enough. Unfortunately/fortunately, almost all my work is for people I would consider friends.
I don't agree. The electrician ran the wiring for elec heat when his code book doesn't allow it in an uninsulated space. He could have saved agravation if he knew this was a code and came back after the inspection was done and installed the heat.
my electricians run that wire before the insulation goes in, so there is no reasoin to suspect that he knew ahead of time that the walls would never get insualtion
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the entire house is unisulated- why would you think the addition would be?
It will all shake out for whoever got the permit if the electric heaters catch the house on fire. Fire marshalls regularly visit planning departments to see of illegal work is performed...like heaters that arent supposed to be there..hmmm, wonder what the insurance company does now?
Re: "my electricians run that wire before the insulation goes in, so there is no reasoin to suspect that he knew ahead of time that the walls would never get insualtion."You make a good point. Also the contention by "byrnsie" that:
'The insulation is a part of the code he should know about' isn't exactly true. The NEC has no requirement for any structure to be insulated that I know of. It is not commonly considered an issue an electrician looks for anywhere I have worked.In fact the last think I want to see when running cable is insulation. The few times the insulators get out ahead and insulate before I wire it has made my job more difficult, and itchy, and complicates, or prevents, inspection of the wiring.
I have lights before I go home itching.
I, not an electrician, defer to our esteemed colleagues, 4lorn1 and Piffin. Who are saying the same thing.
Ok so let me take another angle-
When was the last time a subcontractor supplied you with heat and didn't consider the BTU's?
Man are you grabbing at straws. This guy was not a heating contractor unless I am reading it wrong. If I was doing a cabin/whatever it was called and was putting in a "knock the chill off" system and was going to put some baseboard electric heat in I sure would not do a BTU study. Can you not get the idea what the homeowner asked the GC to do and what he evidently asked the electrician to install?
I would not expect the electrician to jump through these hoops, I would expect him to put whatever was requested in IAW the NEC or local elec rqmts. safely period.
Me too! And I'am grabbing at straws- because the only one who's asking for money is the electrician ($400.00). The electrician is not allowed to wire heat in an uninsulated space. In 20 years I've never just had baseboard arrive with no discussion of heat needs. The entire house has no insulation-and you think it wasn't discussed. We both can imagine the GC said something like, " hey the guy just needs to take the chill out- it ain't like it's getting insulated and he wants a perfect system- just give him enough to take the chill out". Okay so he did. He didn't say, "oh, dude, that's not allowed- maybe I can come back after the inspector signs off."
My point is, (the title of this thread is "who should pay?"),why should the HO's GC cough up the $400? If this is some strange electrical code the electrician isn't expected to know about- why should the GC have known about. I'am grabbing for straws for the HO, that's why I illustrate my point that the electrician I use was a nice guy when our jerko inspector pulled a decision that was going to cost someone, but if this electrician doesn't want to- that's his right. Why should he.
Edited 1/7/2006 8:24 am ET by byrnsie
" The electrician is not allowed to wire heat in an uninsulated space."" If this is some strange electrical code the electrician isn't expected to know about- "You are still missing the point.In the US this is NOT COVERED BY THE NEC. And my guess is that it is the same in Canada where this occured.The electrical code covers the size and type of wire, how connections are made, etc, etc, etc. It only covers how to connect to the specificed equipment. It does not specify it. It does not specify AC any more than it does electrical heat any more than it does the place or type of lighting.Those kind of things are covered by other code, the basic building code, mechanical codes, and energy codes.
Hey Rasconic one more thing-
Since you're picking teams and your pick is: 4lorn1 and Piffin
I'll pick my team for this thread: Girlbuilder and Matt
Girlbuilder, because she says "the HO got exactly what he wanted- you pay up!" And Matt, because he says the HO has the attitude that the GC should just feed him the $400 because he gave him $40,000- like that's principle.
I'm confused about the tag teams...I agree with gurlbuilder who said pretty much same I did way back in the thread. Maybe we are al saying about the same thing but using different reasoning to get there
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I agree Piffin, I really do think the only person I disagree with is Quinhead (see his comment #20). I think I did over emphasise the electrician's place in all this, but never did I say he should pay. I only said it would be nice if he stepped up. Principle is not, as Quinhead thinks, I gave the GC $43K- therefore he should pay for my $400 extra.
Really, my point was that as GC, I would not be paying the $400. I was trying to really let him know that I was 100% with his GC. It sucks when you have a disagreement with friends you're working with, but business is business and his GC is allowed to have his principle on this too. As Girlbuilder said, you got what you paid for- you pay up!
I agree, also, with the guy that said the HO should have insulated the main cabin by now. Quinhead sounds penny wise and pound foolish- he should get to work and insulate the place already- how much cheaper is insulation than energy in the long run.
Why are you assuming that Quinhead "paid" for the $43k job which didn't include insulation?What if the contractor forgot to include a price for the shingles to be installed? Should the OP pay for that as well?When a professional, with no plans given on to bid prepared by others, leaves out something that is required by code I think the pro should pay for it.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
In Virginia your contract has to have a statement saying all work to comply with local building codes and comply with zoning regulations.
http://www.state.va.us/dpor/Contractors%20Web.pdf filing of charges prohibited acts number 9 section e
Edited 1/7/2006 8:16 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 1/7/2006 8:23 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 1/7/2006 8:24 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 1/7/2006 8:25 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 1/7/2006 8:25 pm ET by shellbuilder
I'm not assuming anything- I read it in the opening post. See #1/72.
Quinhead says, "my wife and I had an uninsulated addition put on our uninsulated camp..."
Edited 1/7/2006 9:38 pm ET by byrnsie
Yes, but the plans called for electric heat and the code says that you can't do that without insulation.Whose responsibility is it to know the codes? Quinhead or the contractor?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Okay- now we're going backwards.
Bottom line is homeowner got what he paid for. I was just asked to do an addition that's weather tight- fine with me. The HO wants to do his own insulation, board, and finish. If your saying the GC should insulate- should he board the walls too? Is there some law somewhere that says a GC isn't allowed to have a contract satisfied at weather tight? I don't think so.
Can you just terminate the cable at a duplex 15/20 outlet, split the hot side. Change the breaker to a dual 15 ampper.
Pass your CO inspection and let the HO change the breakers back and put in whatever connection he needs for a heater.
Or in the interests of friendship, the electrician can go to the next BBQ.
SamT
I'm not an electrician so I don't know. I just thought the 20amp outlets and portable disc furnaces might save everybody from doing something illegal-just a thought.
JOn:THat's the catch: This whole thing was done and apparently planned despite code. It seems a fool's game here since the basis is on people who are willing to go around code and basically break the law for a HO who doesn't care about what codes are for and doesn't have much ability for forward thinking.Like one poster said, once the place burns down, they'll be looking for who was responsible. I don't work out of code and I make sure that the inspector knows full well what we're doing because we've run into similar situations and have eaten the cost of bringing the project up to code proper AFTER the original plans are approved. Try making a muncipality responsible for your oversight of code. If the GC guarantees the customer to have the project up to code (which smart people do), then its on him/her. If there no such understanding/contractural language, then I guess you get what we have here.THe GC doesn't offer to insulate the place at his cost to bring the project up to code because he didn't offer to build to code in the first place I assume. So basically (and foolishly in my mind), he goes around code to give HO what HO wants. This feat requires some extra labor on the part of our wonderfully compliant electrician. I wonder what putting insulation in the wall cavities would have cost.How could someone say, "I don't want to insulate this as it costs too much." Around here energy costs are pretty pricey compared to the cost of insulation.Now by principle, the HO should pay up becuase everyone did what he wanted in order for him to save a buck and get what he wanted in the end. They provided a service, now pay. If as a GC, you value your ever-compliant electrician and the HO doesn't, then you will pay him and work to get the money out of the HO or just write it off as bad debt.But the HO morally is still the responsible party.I'd love to see them explain this whole scenario to a judge in a liability lawsuit..."...your honor, yes and then we decided to pretend we didn't have wiring in when the inspector came in again..." which brings me to my final sentiment, no professional should build or remodel out of code if they want to command respect and care about their customers and community. THis seems a true fool's errand in the end all for want of insulation in some little three season room!
My guess would be that they may well have insulated had they known the code requirements. It sounds like they were in a catch 22 (almost) based on the fact that the wall covering was already installed. I may have even got the impression that the unissulated wall and wall covering was existing.
What you are saying is essentially true but you are dwelling on a safety issue that has not been said and probably does not exist. It is only the insulation/energy code that they are attempting to skirt, not NEC, safety, or quality. But code is code.
I agree with you on the business/ethics part.
Edited 1/8/2006 3:42 pm ET by rasconc
Yes rasc you're right on the safety issue, but in my world, I swear if it can happen and will screw me, it will, so I practice major CYA.Also, as for whether the walls were finished or not, I am assuming the whole build was new. Also, I think the disallowance of the electric heat was at the rough in phase when the inspector asked about the purpose of all the extra wiring, but mebbe I'm wrong. Did they skip the rough in inspection and piss the inspector off? Was the inspector a woman and the butt ugly GC winked at her or breathed his alcohol breath on her face as he stood uncomfortably close? Maybe she had also just starting PMSing that day? So she decided to bone up on the code book that night because she couldn't sleep and she hated the world for some reason...and then she found this clause...Maybe the inspector was a guy and the GC winked at him. Maybe the inspector had a fight with a planning board member who told him he was a stupid jerk who didn't know the code book from his ###hole, so he decided to bone up a little -- and then put his knowledge on record.Maybe his wife says yes when he tells of how he doesn't pass contractors.YOu see, there are many things we do not know.
What a sense of humor ( actually sense of reality). I had some of the same thoughts, RI insp would have been the time for this to come up here, but this is in Canada I believe and not too many of us here on BT are up on their codes/procedures. Like many have said I would insulate if possible before covering up just in case.
I usually do my level best to convince the customer to do what makes sense but bottom line if legal and safe will do what they want to write a check for.
But hey, I can't agree with you, you are on the other team (;-).
Edited 1/8/2006 6:25 pm ET by rasconc
I am canadian carpenter Ottawa Ontario I know about the no insulation no heat "law" it is a conservation issue.I know it get's very cold here no insulation electric heat in the fall just like a screen door same in the spring .
but anyhow when i submit a set of plans for review the inspector will look at that sort of thing .and in this case he over looked it i would say.There must be cross sections showing insul now days .
so now you must pay four hundred bucks on a job that seem's to me was done at a very good price.
I say pay the four hundred and the next four hundred when the hydro bill comes in for the month
This whole thing was settled up about 50 posts ago.
I'm surprised to see it still going.
Must be a slow w/e.[email protected]
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I was just pointing out what an electrician and another person had said. I do not know how many people have to tell you at least down here this issue is not part of the electrical code. If his electrician was "Joe's Heating and Cooling and oh by the way electricians" I may agree with you. I guess Bill H is on the team too (:-).
I do not see any on your team that thinks the electrician should pay. There is a lot of difference in your step-up electrician putting in an outlet and his electrician undoing (to a degree) and coming back and re-doing the items listed. I am not sure of the code here in NC but I thought the outlet needed to be closer to the furnace/equipment.
I still put the responsibility on the building professional, the contractor. There is blame to be owned by HO, GC, BI (dept) but like I said in my first post if I were the GC I would have paid it, smiled and said I learned something and built the guy's house when the time came. If I were the HO and this happened I would probably pay it amd move on. A $42 K three season room must be worth another $400 heated. Certainly worth $400 to keep a friend especially one in the trades.
Edited 1/7/2006 11:28 am ET by rasconc
question I have is, really two question. Why would any people consider a structure without insulation, its in the basic package like windows and doors. second, why have you not insulate the main bldg by now. I would of the first weekend.. 2+3=7
on a small camp like this - all the timeI did one similar three or four years ago. The original structure had no insulation, the whole place was wired /re-wired adding for BB heat. The electricians never saw a speck of insulation and never asked. That is something I put in after they pulled wire and the walls were up before they came back. Insulated the whole thing. The only Q they had was whether the wall finish would be 1/2" SR or 3/4" T&G pine so they could set the boxes. The point you are arguing works only in aperfect world on paper, not in reality on the job.
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which is notable in and of itself
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There may be an alternative. A bit of a dodge, and I'm much more in favor of being straight up, but it may save trouble on both sides.
You don't mention what sort of cabling is run for the electric heat but I would suspect either a run of 8/2 or 8/3, perhaps the same in #10. Either way you may have an option.
I wouldn't back the cables out. Simply divert them outside, or other credible location, and mount a heavy duty outlet. If asked it is for a welder, compressor or other machinery. Insulation isn't an issue with such machinery. Perhaps the BI would buy it. How to ask without queering the deal will be a matter of finesse but it has been done in the past.
Once passed you might look into one of the many plug operated electric heat units. Some just get mounted to the wall and plugged in. And in the summer you can run a really big compressor or welder in the family room. A heavy duty grinder is great for getting rid of the bodies.
Personally I would install insulation and have done with it straight up. The insulation would make for a better space. Even if it doesn't enclose the entire area. I have been on projects where part of it was insulated just to placate the AHJ. Within a few months the HOs had brought in a contractor to insulate the rest of the place simply because the insulated section 'felt better'. A trait I associate with cold walls feeling like they are sucking the heat out while insulated walls are less needy.
Quinhead,
This thread really got going- I don't know if you've read everything here but I really tried to do what I could to support your GC here. Being self-employed 20 years I think I've lost 2 friendships over principle issues. I tried to do what I could to save your's- as I side with the GC here.
I'm wondering, and this is my final effort here I promise, could you have those circuits put in boxes to become 20 amp outlets. Get signed off. Then use portable Pelonis Disc furnaces for heat? They seem to crank out alot more heat than electric baseboard and not be the fire hazzard that space heaters are.