I had a resawn Doug Fir patio cover installed in the Summer of 2002 in San Diego County; the hot dry side of the county. I noticed that the flat 2 x 4 roof with a 2″ gap between the boards sitting on 4 x 6’s, 3′ on center were beginning to look like they had a fungus/dry rot look to them on the ends. The ends were detailed with a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2″ header to give it a more finished look rather then just an end grained look. I had a couple of guys remove the roof only to find that the ends were never sealed with a primer before the headers were nailed on. I assume that the installers layed the roof long and just cut it straight with a circular saw on each end of the patio cover. But they did not prime those end cuts prior to nailing on the primed and painted headers. The headers were OK. Should the contractor that installed the unit be at fault? He is still in business in my town. I certainly thought that a patio cover lasted longer than 6 years.
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You sure you're not just seeing sap?
It's dry rot. One could put a screwdriver through the ends with no problem with many boards missing wood altogether that has withered away from the inside out.
I've been told there is NO such thing as DRY rot. It may be dry now but to rot it had to have been wet. True or False???
"I've been told there is NO such thing as DRY rot. It may be dry now but to rot it had to have been wet. True or False???"True true true. Just one of those nonsensical terms like hot water heater.BruceT
Well it is called dry rot because the wood rots after it gets wet and then drys out. Wood under water continuously can remain rot free. But look at dock pilings. They rot at the point where the tide rises and falls, thus allowing the wood to get wet, then dry out, get wet and dry out.It is still a pretty silly phrase. After all, it is the wood that is rotting, not the "dry".
Was the original contractor responsible for sealing the patio cover? Was there anything in the contract specifically regarding this?
Doug
The contract was with the landscape contractor who hired this contractor to pour the concrete, build and finish a patio cover and a BBQ surround complete with finishing.
If the contract says "complete with finish" or something to that effect then I'd say you have a good place to start. Not sure you can prove that the rot was caused by the ends not being sealed but it is something.
Doug
Technically its on the guy who hired the subcontractor, then; he bares the responsibility of everyone he hires.
A simple job like this is tough. Too simple for detailed specs to nail down issues like this. But there is such a thing as 'normal practice' and workmanship that is 'industry standard'. Using e.g. galvanized nails in an exposed condition would be considered workmanship standard in the industry. While I think no one on this posting would disagree that sealing the ends of the rafters is well 'duh', not sure if that would be considered 'standard in the industry.
Have a friend call the sub ... ask him about doing a patio cover. Have him ask if it will last longer than 6 years (or how long will it last) ... and when he says ... sure, it should easily last 12 or 15, then you may build a case ... by his own admission, his work is no where close to acceptable. You could have your friend even state that he has a friend that had a problem w/ dry rot on the ends of his rafters and how the contractor would (IF he could) prevent that type of thing happening.
eh ... just thinking. 6 years later ... it may be tough. Good luck.
After 6 years your out of luck. Some states have a 5 year statute of limitations dealing with construction issues. Without this people would be in court for things built 20 years ago.
That was kinda my sense ... a little old.
That seems like a VERY short timeframe for rot to happen, but I guess it's possible if the wood is of relatively low quality and they did something to trap a lot of water. Backpriming and priming of end cuts are definitely good practice but I don't know that I'd call them industry standard and I doubt they are required in your contract.
Got any photos you can post?
I will post some pictures tomorrow late afternoon. It is dark now. I will do it after work.
was this a manufactured kit?
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Not manufactured. Cut on site. Primed and painted by the installers prior to installation.
Have you done any preventive maintenance to the structure in the 6 years since it was built?
Pictures would be helpful in getting good opinions.
resawn Doug Fir
That stood out to me as an additional factor. Resawn from what? What condition was it in before being resawn?
Doug fir lasts an awful long time, but if it was starting to suffer before being resawn I can see how 6 years might be the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.
If it's this kind of wood it needs to be protected, but it's not a maintenance free product and should have been care for since being built.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I think you could be onto something there if this is used or reccycled lumber. Seems to me that San Diego is the kind of place where it isn't damp enough for accelerated rot to set in.I have done a LOT of railings up here in the wet NE with fir and no presealing on ballusters and never seen what he describing. Some on forty year old pine ones...'course, maybe this is in a location where the HO is running a sprinkler five times a week and keeping the wood wet too...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Trying to get into the mind of the guy resawing old fir, I can see where the questionable stuff might get pawned off for mostly decrorative purposes such as this. The ends that were cut and not sealed were perhaps the worst portion of the larger beam to start with.
Watering 5 times a week instead of 7 might qualify it for the dry part of town!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I think he means rough-sawn doug fir. Pretty commonly used here in SoCal for rustic look. 2x4 dimensions are likely to be 1 3/4" x 3 3/4".
BruceT
Resawn Doug Fir is just a rough sawn look. I hope the pictures that I took will help if I am able to transfer them to this site properly in a internet size format.
One thing to notice is that the header element that I left on the patio cover along with the 2 x 4's are in good shape due to the fact that they are under the eave so no sunlight or rain gets to them. The ends of the 2 x 4's in the stack that look decent are the ends that were butted in the center of the patio cover. They weren't damaged as much as the ends for some reason. I think that maybe some of the primer and paint rolled down them as they were being painted before the installation. Those pieces also have two three penny nail holes in them. Can I just cut off the damaged ends and re-install and if so what product do I use to fill the old nail holes and missing pieces of wood that came off during the removal? I had planned on repainting the whole structure either before Winter or after Spring of next year, but obviously upon review last weekend before the removal was done, paint now is eminant. Most all of the patio cover paint wise is good as of this date. A local lumber company stocks this resawn lumber. I also had to remove one of the 4 x 6's due to a long check that decomposed that piece.
Try hitting enter every five lines or so, make for easier reading.
Cheers, BobFor those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Here are the pictures resized for the dial up people.
View Image
View Image
BTW, that wood looks pretty bad for only being 6 years old!
Doug
Edited 9/8/2008 8:27 pm ET by DougU
Edited 9/8/2008 8:27 pm ET by DougU
I have never seen a six year warrenty on lumber.
Thanks for the sizing adjustment Doug.
well ....
U pay now.
now that you've had someone else do the repair, at least the demo, and didn't give the original contractor a chance to fix his mistakes.
and that's best case senerio ... as I'd bet there's no way to hold a warrenty to a 6 year old, unmaintained exterior structure.
but that last past is just a guess.
first part ... that's the way I've heard it done in most areas.
gotta at least let the guy try to fix it or turn U down first.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That is the way that I viewed the problem that I had before I removed the patio cover Jeff. I called the contractor and asked him where I could get the lumber before I removed it because I thought that the patio cover had aquired some sort of Fungus. But that view changed when I realized that the contractor had not sealed the ends of the cover causing the damage. It all boils down as to whether priming the entire cover was expected. Why prime at all? The cover is lost due to the mis-step. Aren't there several articles in Fine Homebuilding that discuss this very subject of priming miter cuts and other lumber parts that join together in outside installations?
hey .. stop yelling at me ... I didn't build it!
anyways ... call the magistrate.
bet he says what I said.
did the original contractor flat out tell ya Nope when U asked if he'd come fix it?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Was there any landscaping laying on (or against) this wood? The pictures sure look like water damaged wood and I've seen this in situations where branches lay on patio covers.My neighbor is replacing her redwood patio cover after several years of letting a redwood tree branch lay on it. The cover stayed wet all through the rainy winter, and well into the summer because of the deep shade from the tree. I did some minor repairs over a few years but couldn't convince her that the branch needed to be cut back so air could circulate.
I am trying to figurer out what you mean by 'patio cover'
Was there some sort of fabric stretched over this quasi-pergola?
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stk....
backpriming those ends might have helped a little.... but really..
it was just not built to last
you have some detail in the design that diverted and trapped water
this is way beyond backpriming
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I called the lumber yard where he bought the wood and it is a Doug Fir smooth that they run through a machine to get the resawn look. It is in lengths up to 24' and it cost .42/ft. The 4 x 6" that I need 14' of is about $40 with one corbel end. I talked to a good builder friend of mine and he said that he did not feel that I had a claim on the installer since it was 6 years although his company always back primes any end cuts as a standard since they work mostly on the beach. I am going to cut the bad parts of the damaged pieces this weekend, fill any missing areas of the boards at the nail holes with a poly caulk, prime and paint the 2 x 4's over again including the rest of the patio cover and re-install the roof. Of course I will double prime and paint the ends before I apply the header and then I am going to seal that header to the ends with poly caulk as well as any butt joints. I am going to install the roof with only a 1/4" gap between the boards this time for better shade. The original had a good 2" gap that caused people to have to move to get the Sun out of their eyes. Thanks for the thread input. Greg Warren, wood floor contractor. 30 yrs in the biz. If you want something done right, I guess one has to do it yourself. It least my clients get it done right by me everytime.
Didn't you have a house built by Centex way back when with a lot of problems? Is this the same house?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
John,
You are correct in that I had several issues with Centex. But with the help of having all of the fax numbers to the chairman of the board of Centex and the president of Centex California, I got all of my issues resolved to the tune of tens of thousands of Centex dollars spent correcting the faults/misses. The patio cover is not a Centex issue. I did call the patio installer today and left him a message to come look at my problem at my home and help me come to a financial conclusion. They should have known better than to install a finished piece of wood to an unfinished piece. I will let the board know if he even responds. Usually he is out on a golf course during the business day so he rarely sees the projects under construction. That's just great, isn't it; a drive by builder.
"Usually he is out on a golf course during the business day so he rarely sees the projects under construction. That's just great, isn't it; a drive by builder."
that'd be a problem if the roof didn't rot?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That mostly sounds good, but...By moving the wood slats so close together, you will reduce how well they drain and increase time needed to dry each time they get wet. It will also make it impossible to repaint them between slats properly next time around.There is still the problem of poor design in that these are laid on the flat where water puddles on them and soaks in from the top through the paint, especially since all paints now are latex and allow moisture penetration. This problem is probably increase d in this textrure that the machine adds to give a rough sawn or resawn look. I would want that top surface as smooth as possible to avoid retaining water there to soak in. Your situation was probably made worse by the lack of attention to end sealing, but there is a lot more going on there too. If it were me, I would keep at least 3/4" between slats, and plane the top surface smooth, then seal with oil primer two coats before finish top coats of latex.Then inspect it at least once a year instead of every 5-6 years.
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I'm like that as well when it comes to exposed wood. I go to great lengths to seal the ends with the best I can find. The same with the rest of the wood.
It just makes snese to me. It's outside and exposed to the elements every day.
Just think if you were up on the roof evey day.
resawn Doug Fir
resawn from what - most of the 2x in the first pix are only 4 or 5 growth rings and sawn from the log center - those puppys were NOT resawn, sawn from scrub ends is my guess, 'resawn' from rejects or larger boards maybe. The 7 or more growth ring stuff looks ok.
Is that a mister in amoung those plants? How are the plants watered? Where does the moisture come from that caused the rot?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
OK, back to the original question, "who should pay"?
to me it looks like a quick fix, couple of hours at most and $40 in material.
after six years it seems regular inspection and maintenance was non-existant or the deterioration would have been nipped in the bud
you could ask the contractor to be a nice guy and comp you but I'm not thinking he's all that obligated. He could easily claim that he reccommended using a more weather resistant material but the budget did'nt allow it
The contractor picked the materials and there was no discussion as to better materials. Price was not an issue. I accepted the proposal and no other bids were let out. As to the maintenance, the damage happened from the inside out. As you can see the exterior of the boards are still holding the paint. The damage was not seen until the wood started to bubble and expand on the ends.
Let me throw this one at you guy's. I built a Duplex on an infill lot in 1986. Had the sanitary line scanned with a camera before I started and found a lateral for the sight. The main is across the street. I had a reputable plumber do all the plumbing including installing the sewer line from the Duplex to the lateral. I got a call from the local Sanitation department and they said the Sanitary line from the Duplex was installed in the storm piping. I got a camera crew out there and yes the line is in the storm piping. It seems that both the sanitary and storm lines had laterals crossing the road in the same ditch and both where 6" clay tile. I can see that the plumber not expecting a storm lateral mistook it for the sanitary lateral. Who should Pay?
need more info
you built the duplex acting as GC?
are you saying that you located the lateral?
and hired the plumber to tap into it?
and you were satisfied enough (at the time) to pay him in full?
Every place I've worked they would have had an inspector check out your entire installation before backfill. Did this not occur?
There was no inspection required of the under ground work at the time. The whole inspection and sanitation issue at the time was a mess. Since then 13 sewer authorities combined together and their is one agency to deal with which has their act together. We were tying into a system that was installed in the 50s. I was the GC.
The area is now under a EPA Consent Decree. It is my understanding the Sanitation Authority is inspecting 13,000 miles of pipe per the agreement mostly to assess its condition and make repairs. The situation I am in is not isolated. They are finding situations like this every where.
Unfortunately you are probably on the hook. If they had inspected I might say otherwise. You might be able to pin it on the plumber if you're inclined. I imagine the whole thing involves digging up the road again, probably a real drag.
I met a plumber and an excavator out there just a few minuets ago. The excavator is in his 70s and remembers working for someone else and putting in both the storm and sanitary lines. He said the sanitary is directly on top of the storm. That kind of confirms what the plumber found out with the TV cameras. Lots of underground utilities in the area. If not for that I think to make the switch would not be so bad. Going to have lots of problems staying away from gas and water lines.
The inspector that came out and who should have known the difference, inspected, and approved it. ... At the time, it would have been an unknown anomally of construction and the owner would have to pay for the change ... but it was installed wrong unbeknownst to maybe anyone. An honest mistake. But mistakes like car accidents have to be someone's fault even if it is an honest mistake. Tough call, dude.
Looks like to me the guy started off with bad wet lumber. Maybe stuff he had sitting around, cut it down told you it was resawn.
when he primed it sealed in the moisture, your hot dry days acted like an incubator for the rot.
Unless he is real honest or real nice you are out any money.
GaryS
Wow, that wood is really rotted for being only 6 years old and suspended in the air. I've seen DF in ground contact, wet locations, hold up better.
One thing that can account for premature rot is that they lay flat on your pergola rafters. They can cup and hold water more and if they split, the water can then enter and get trapped because the boards are mostly sealed on the exterior.
Not priming/sealing the endgrain had nothing to do with this in my opinion.
All in all though, for non-treated wood, 6 years is beyond any reasonable period for the expectation of warrantee, unless you have something in writing to the contrary.
I say, put in new ones on your dime. You should have well under $100 in materials and a few hours labor to replace.
Use a resistant wood this time and you'll definitely get more years. Stand the wood on end instead of laying flat and you'll get more years with any species of wood.
Are there any special conditions in your partio area? watering, chemicals, misters?
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
I'm wondering if that's actually fir, it's hard to tell. If it were hemlock--very similar looking in some cases--it might go punk like that in 6 years. I have VG fir trim on my house that's 90 years old and still good for a few more.
I was wondering that too. I meant to ask how he knew it was fir.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
agreed on that too. My fist thought on those photos was, "Boy, they get some poorer fir out there in CA than I do here all the way across the continent! Junkyard noticed it too.If this guy has a cpontract that speciefied Doug Fir and if this is not DF, then he has a case. Otherwise it looks like lack of maintanance.
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so far, that is the way my opinion is leaning too. I also think that is a latex stain and not a paint. The end grain rotted worst because of no preseal there, but the whole length seems to have problems from what I see in the photos.
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