We hired a new kid ( 21yrs old) and he said he could frame , do siding , windows and etc. So the boss sends me and him to a small addition (I’ll post pics later) to start framing. So we made good time and a few days later the addition was all framed. Impoortant note: we used nail guns. The boss asks how the kid was and I say ok, good worker.
Now this week was a different story. Set the windows on monday. Four out of twelve the cladding was dimpled. I was inside guy and after the first hammer shot I told him in a nice way to be carefull. The second window the got smacked I took his 180.00 stilleto and gave hime my 20 oz. Things were going better and after lunch a double unit he hit three times in three different spots. So enough was enough I was the outside guy and no more windows got hit. Boss comes out tuesday and is not happy but I dont throw people under the bus so I told him that it was an accident and it was worked out.
The kid later tells me that he has never had to do much hand nailing everything was gun nails. So I told him over the weekend got to lowes and buy 10 lbs of nails and a cople of 2×4’s and start practicing if he wanted to keep his job.
So just wondering if y’all have any kids like this on your jobs.
Replies
Alot of it goes back to schools and farming.
Schools don't offer as many shop classes any more, migrating towards more technology based curiculems.
Not many kids on the farm anymore either, kids used to be able to get exposed to a lot of different scenarios, fixing fence, barn ...... the list goes on.
Kids are very "street smart" now days which is good but many valuable lessons will be lost as a result of fewer family farms and an ever changing school system.
I have also worked with a few that didn't know which end of the hammer to use.....makes for a very long day.
Usually why I try to work by myself as much as I can.
Ebe
I learned to hammer as a kid building forts and treehouses. Man, that old oak must have had 1000 nails in it! I'm a handy homeowner, and usually just use a 16 oz Plumb. Don't have a framer. I feel I can drive OK, but wouldn't win any contest.I think my Wife got me a PC 350 Framing gun for my B-day. I was not asking for one, and have never fired a nail. I'm planning on building a shed, firewood shed, front porch.
Don't know if I need a gun. From what I've read, people love their nail guns, and this one seems to be a good one. Do guns really make it easier? Do they do a better job by sinking a nail in one action? Does a gun make sense for a weekend warrior? What do you think?
Does a gun make sense for a weekend warrior. Yes and no.
Provided you are cautiuos and follow safety rules they can be an asset, or else your weekend can be spent in the emergency room. You have to remember that muscle memory and coordination take time to develop, you don't use the gun everyday or even every week, so you need to use extra care in handling it till you get the knack. Teach yourself to take your finger away from the trigger immediatly after shootign a nail. that way if you slip coming down the ladder, or if the gun just bumps something you are less likely to become a statistic.
I don't care how they improve models, they are heavy to handle espeially overhead or on a ladder. The hose makes them even more so. Toe nailing can be a little unnerving because of the angle the nail enters the wood. Another big secret the diy shows gloss over is that the nail gun does not totally replace your hammer. For example, toenailing leaves the nail set up to high and they often need to be driven home by hand. Attaching metal connectors has to be done by hand unless you have a poitive placement nailer, some call a strap nailer.
Also, it is easy to overdrive nails into sheathing unless you keep an eye out fot that. If you over drive them 1/4 inch into 7/16 osb for example that means there is only 3/16 of material holding. Not good
Another thing to think about, if you are just a weekend worker, nails are and can be expensive and heavy in the box to move around on the work shop shelf. Depending on the size of the project, you probably wont use enough to justify the cost especially if you need different lengths or finishes, i.e. galv. vs. brite. Most brands i use don't offer smaller packages of framing nails like they do for finish nails and brad nails. Just be prepared to eat the extra money for fasteners, think of it as the cost of the learning curve or experience.
If you have a lot of framing and assembly they make quick work of it. But they don't totally replace the hammer or the man powered nailer. I also agree with the other posters and you that huge hammers are not better. I work with another guy doing remodeling, the most we use is 20 oz estwings. Partly because we do a little of everything. Okay hold on I did tear out a bath friday with a 22 estwing I used it because of the longer handle gives more leverage. But you wont find me weilding a 24 or 28 ounce club.
Are nail guns worth it? Sure, and since you already have it be careful and go for it.
Just my two cents worth, hope this helps and gives some helpful hints.
Webby
Edited 4/19/2008 12:13 pm ET by webby
Edited 4/19/2008 12:21 pm ET by webby
"Does a gun make sense for a weekend warrior?"
Yes. A nail gun that is. ;-)
Given that proficiency with a hammer is like any other skill that requires practice, a weekend warrior has little time to build up the muscle memory. Apart from the obvious safety concerns that come with using the tool, a nail gun will let a DIY'er get the job done quickly with minimal collateral damage to the project.
I am not a full-time framer, finish carpenter, or flooring guy, but have all the appropriate nailers. A man's got to know his limitations, and I have substituted cash and pneumatic power for practice time nailing.
... now having said that, I once beat my high school teacher in a nail pounding contest, so I also have a small collection of hammers too.
Nowadays the neighbors would call the building department and complain about a tree house.
A gun can make sense, if it saves you enough time to be worth the money. Like one weekend instead of two. If you're a weekend warrior configure the trigger for sequential fire. Bounce fire for the weekender is just asking for trouble.
I second the sequential fire.Webby
Southbay, I think you need to be damned careful with it. "Gun" is only a slight misnomer, and there are more accidents every day showing up in the ERs because the casual user doesn't get enough experience with one to be safe.
If you accidentally misfire one the nail is a bullet. If you blow through the backing, it still has lots of energy.
I had a guy get killed on a job, by his cousin with a nail gun. One guy was inside framing the interior walls, while the cousin was outside nailing the sheathing. The one outside missed the stud, and the nail went through the sheathing, into his cousins back, and penetrated his heart. He was dead before the cousin could make it around to the door, and back inside.
I used to be able to two stroke 16p nails. It was a skill I learned at 14, when the carpenter I was helping said he would give me a buck an hour raise if I could do it.
But, personally I no longer use a hammer for much of anything. I have "trigger finger" on three fingers of my right hand, so if I grip anything about the size of a hammer handle for long my fingers lock in position, until I pull them straight with the left hand. And it hurts to do that, and the hand swells up. Probably out to have surgery and get it fixed.
Now days I screw almost everything together with an impact driver.
There's one more peculiar nail gun safety issue. Under some circumstances, the nail can bend into a "C" shape and come back at you. I've had it happen several times with a brad nailer on T&G flooring. Never got hurt by it, I knew to keep my hand well clear. Fortunately, this was intended to be a somewhat distressed looking job, so the damage caused by backing the "C" nails out wasn't a big issue. It seems to be a problem with the angle between the surfaces. It can happen with toenailing, too.
-- J.S.
That happens from time to time with framing nails too. Hit a knot and the nail curls back at you. It's a good reminder to keep your spare hand well out of the way when nailing off studs.View Image
I dread working with a poor nailer. While I was on my cousin's construction comp. my 1st cousin once removed yaddy yaddy was working too because he's my cousin's son. Of all the 20 nails he pounded, he got one in straight. I of couse had to fix all the nails, he didn't even tyr to get one in each hole. After lunch, he completely gave up an I was the one on the ladder nailing the hurricane clips while hes just talking non-stop about girls. nothing wrong about that, except it was like that for 3 hours iwas going to throw a hammer at him.
I personally am pretty good at poundin', It's a great skill to have
Look ma, no jigs!!!
Edited 4/19/2008 12:54 am ET by andyfew322
while hes just talking non-stop about girls. nothing wrong about that,
Well I for one am glad to read that! Was hoping you weren't getting to involved in this construction bs to forget about the important stuff!
Doug
Yeah, but you a little young to be trash talkin' the girls, and a little brash, as in:
I personally am pretty good at poundin', It's a great skill to have
heh heh ya, saw that and thought about saying something.
be that's funny right there
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He's a construction worker for cryin' out loud, they born that way!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
y'all have any kids like this
Well, my "running bunch" has a bunch of people who have just bought houses, but have never used a hammer for anything other than hangin the odd picture or two.
Makes me cringe to see how they hold hammers, let alone swing them. So they have no muscle memory for driving nails (let alone production quantities of sinkers). Some seem to have almost no hand(hammer)-eye coordination, too. (Find a way to follow a nailing schedule with a mouse, then, they'd probably be well-skilled . . . )
Warning sign: "Why do you have so many hammers?"
As the captain said they dont know how to hold the hammer, I never saw a hammer bigger then 20oz when i was young , Now i see guys with hammers called Death sticks or something and they have these 24oz hammers, If nailing sheathing i always used a 16oz.They all wanna be Macho with a big hammer but there gonna ruin there elbows, My dad used a 16oz plumb
Good point about using too heavy a hammer. When I was framing, I had a 16 oz. and after a couple weeks on the job I told my boss I was going to buy a heavier hammer (he had something like a 28 oz. Estwing that was more like an axe). He told me not to do it--that I would get "tennis elbow". After about a year, I did finally buy a bigger hammer (22 or 24 oz, I think) and used it for rough framing and used my 16 oz. for a lot of other stuff (like nailing off windows, putting on fascia, etc.) The 16 oz. could get in tight places better than the big hammer and my boss sometimes borrowed it to use in tight spots. I actually still used the 16 oz. more than the big hammer.
I later bought a Hart hammer (I think it was 26 oz.) with a wooden "axe-style" handle and a waffle face. Use it seldom--like for spiking landscape timbers together to build retaining walls. I broke that hammer while pulling a spike--the broken claw flew up and hit me in the chest and cut me through my T-shirt! I sent the hammer back and Hart sent me a new one--the store refused to replace it because I hadn't kept the receipt (this was a couple years after I bought it).
Another thing my boss told me was don't just try to hit the head of the nail--look at a pintpoint spot on the center of the nail head and hit that. I missed a lot less with that technique.
Another thing my boss told me was don't just try to hit the head of the nail--look at a pintpoint spot on the center of the nail head and hit that. I missed a lot less with that technique. When my uncle was teaching me to shoot he told me- Aim big, miss big
Aim small, miss small.
I have found that to be universally helpful.
I used a 16 or 18 oz Plumb for 10-12 years, but went back to my old 20 oz Vaughn with new wooden handle last year. I do like letting the weight do some of the work, but any heavier and each heft back up would be wearing me out. One place I appreciate the weight is when nailing up 3/8" ply soffit overhead. The mass doesn't allow things to bounce loose as much
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I had taped the handle of my 16 oz. (don't even remember the brand name) with racketball handle tape so it was nicely cushioned. Another carpenter--rough, tough tobacco-chewing guy asked me to toss it up to him when he needed a hammer while we were shoveling off a roof. He asked me what this was--"...a toy or something?!"
But it was better than the one I tried to use the claw on to cut the steel bands on a bunk of wood--it was getting dark and I was beating the hell out of the bands and couldn't understand why they weren't breaking--held the claw up to the light and saw it was all curled over! I think that was a Wards hammer that someone gave me.
My 7 year old demanded his own hammer at four so he could be like dad.
"dad can I go in the garage and pound some nails."
Now he shows his friends how to nail.
not every kid grows up that way. I'm a lucky dad!
View Image
Edited 4/19/2008 1:49 am by alrightythen
My daughter was doing that when she was three.
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Your son has learned the secret formula!
When I was working heavily for H4H there was another regular volunteer who was a retired industrial arts teacher, Harry.
Every now and then Harry would hear a yelp from one of the volunteers - usually a good hearted bank employee. The yelp was usually preceded by a series of taps - sound went like tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, YOW!
Harry would rush over to the injured party, after making sure there was no significant injury - he would go into his mentor mode.
In a louder than necessary voice ---"I'm going to tell you the SECRET of using a hammer and NEVER hitting your finger."
"Great!" By this time a small crowd of the injured (embarrassed) volunteer's associates would have gathered to hear Harry's dissertation - all the wisdom with none of the pain.
Harry's delivery was always great - "Let me see your hammer"
Volunteer would hand him the hammer.
Paying close attention to the head orientation, Harry would wrap his right hand carefully around the hammer handle...
"You need to hold your hammer with.."
Left hand grabs the handle
"BOTH HANDS!"
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I hope that's not a 16 or he's going to mess up your sidewalk, heh, heh.
I confess I'm late to the party on this thread and haven't read much of the middle, so forgive me if I repeat anything.Has anyone ever belt sanded your hammer head when you were starting to bend a lot of nails? That seemed to be pretty popular on the finish crew I worked on back in 1978. Most of our work was done with finish nailers (and, sorry to say, 1/4" crown staplers too) but we had to know how to hand nail casing now and then too. When it's finish work you really don't want to be bending the fasteners.We started our own business in '79 and bought some equipment. I still have the Estwing 20 oz straight claw hammer I bought back then, it's my "main hammer" to this day. Heck, it's only 39 yrs old.That steel handle got me once, though. I was working outside in the back of a home doing some remodel work, and the owner had put up a single wire electric fence 1 foot off the ground to keep the dog out of the flower beds. I wasn't paying attention and let the handle touch the wire and got a good jolt off it. Don't believe that would have happened with a wood handle!
Not on a belt sander. Usually just a couple passes of the steel on about 80 grit will give enough texture that the nail head doesn't slide.Back in the seventies, I worked with an old guy who had whittled and sanded on his wood handle enough to fit his grip perfectly. He was a trim carp before the days of pneumatics for that.
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I always have to look up how long a penny nail is. Here in Canada we refer to a nail by it's lengh ( in inches) unless of course you're reading the code book - then it's all in metric.
He and his friend were building a ramp to ride their bikes off of. After he finished I later built a more permament one for him and his friends. There was an excavated site across the street, about 5' deep with sloped banks. They took the ramp I built and faced it into the pit. Then suggested to his little brother who was 5 to "go for it" - he did!
Went flying through air over the handle bars landing flat on his stomache right into the pit was the description by all the kids. when I ran over I wasn't sure if he was laughing or crying. He was the hero of every kid on the block that day.
View Image View Image
It get's worse. When my son was in college he called home and said out of 18 students in his hands on class he and one other guy were the only ones that could read a tape measure! I understand a lot of folks don't use a tape but it is the same as a ruler for cryin out loud.
And when I taught vocational school my classes started out (16 year olds) with 25 kids. I never had a class with more than 3 students that could hammer at all or read a tape. Sad. DanT
the fact of the matter is that it takes time and practice to be a good nailer. it's not something that anyone can just do. this day in age it takes even longer because of the use of nail guns.
i wasn't allowed to use a nail gun for the first six months of my first job. obviously i could have been more productive with a nailer, but it was more important to my boss (dad) that i learned how to drive a nail. i'm glad he had that sentiment.
i showed up on a framing job in coloradao from upstate ny. everyone gave me a hard time about my 20 0z estwing. they had there death sticks and vaughn 280z framing hammer. after someone had busted my balls about my hammer for the 50th time i told him to put his money where his mouth was and challenged him to a duel. at this point in time (coffee break) there are about seven of us huddled around two headers that were just tacked in. the boss dictated the rules . the first to drive twenty clean 16d nails wins. the winner along with bragging rights would receive a cash prize, $5. (everyone chipped in what change they had.) bets were even flying back and forth.
the power actuated nailer rang and the race was on. at first we were neck and neck, but i noticed i was getting almost two hits per his one. on and on it went sweat flying off my brow. i could almost smell victory or was it defeat. between the hoots and hollers of more than a few angry coloridians i drove that last nail with the tenacity of andrew carnegie warding off disgruntled union members.
i was more than a little proud and learned not that i was a great nailer, but that they didn't use their hammers for nailing. after that noone gave me a hard time about my "starter hammer". until i got to portland:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
"it takes time and practice to be a good nailer"That's what it all boils down to. It takes a good while, sometime years, to acquire the memory and focus into the muscle.I think what we're seeing less of these days is patience to learn resulting in the lack of skill. Technology has taught the young generations that many and most things are achieved pretty much instantly.
That will never be the case with hammering, using spackle knives or a trowel, a hand saw or any other non electric hand tool.
Trying to explain the fine balance of allowing the tool to do the work as an extension of your arm & hand or forcing it and having it work against you is like trying to nail Jello to the wall.They won't get it until they get it themselves.
Sure it's fun for a bunch of us old guys to make fun of the kids hammering, but what about when your computer acts up? or when daylight savings time comes along and you can't change the clock in your truck? Whose looking for a friendly teen then?
I had a young fella just out of his apprenticeship helping me for 3 weeks recently.
I hate Paslode nail guns and did everything by hand. He looked like I had gutshot him when I told him to get to it.
After a week I caved and got the gun.....for 'non important' stuff I could see the speed benefits, but for every little thing?...............no way.
He had learned the 'new' way top build.......pull the trigger. If you miss with the first nail or the wood splits etc.....pull the trigger another 5 times.
6 badly placed nails just has to be equal to 2 good ones....right?
My brother has helped me a bit here and there, he is not a carpenter. No complaints about hand nailing. He misses a few of course but it seems his success rate is way higher than most 'carpenters' now.
Before you know it houses will be crapped out of a giant machine that dumps some pre-programmed blob of plastic onto the site.
Real work will be done by us 'old timers' who actually know a thing or two and we will be in such demand we could make more money than Billy gates.
;-)People talk about insanity like its a bad thing........
houses will be crapped out of a giant machine that dumps some pre-programmed blob of plastic onto the site.
They actually did that in London in the late 70's. Injection-moulded, one-piece housing units for the low-income housing market. The idea was to create the 'Volkwagen Beetle' of houses, one that anybody could afford. Didn't work, obviously....
I had a picture of one of them around here somewhere; haven't got a clue where it got to tho.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
But isn't the reason they were in class so you could teach them that?I mean, why take an English class when you already know how to speak?;)Funny story that shocked me recently. My Mom told this one on Dad.He was in pilot training in Pensacola during the Korean conflict, then that ended so they made him a male nurse at Annapolis. After he got home and married, he went to work for Moog and for 22 years he did test and calbration on really high quality gauges and servocontrols.Then when he retired from that and they moved to FL, he went to work for a solar installation company. After all those years of high level accuracy in his work, he had never needed to learn to use a tape measure.So the guy called out a measure and Dad couldn't figure out which of those lines he needed to mark to. He cut the board 3/16" too short and got yelled at and quit - calling the guy a dickhead.Then he got a job supervising the floor of a company that made transistors and other tiny electronics parts - again calling for a high degree of accuracy, but as far as Mom knows, he never learned to read the tape.
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Back in the mid sixties I worked part time and summers for a medium sized builder. Sub floors on most of our houses were 1x10 spruce, unless plywood was priced low at the time. I can't recall hearing the term "framer" until the early 70's, as the carpenters did everything from forms to roofing.
Anyway, we were building a complex of 3 story apt. houses, and I would come in after school and Saturdays to do whatever. The crew had tacked in the spruce decking earlier that day and my job was to nail it off. The boss came up to me after a while and patiently showed me technique of rhythm, balance and minute details of hand eye coordination. He told me his father had him nail a whole keg of 8d into a telephone pole to practice as a kid. It took a while, but I eventually became a human nailing machine. Driving spikes and toenailing was "another lesson".
Ditto most of what's been said here. Never saw any skilled carpenter swing more than an 18 or 20 oz. One guy on our crew had an Estwing 20, but the best nailer I ever saw loved his 16 oz. True Temper Rocket. Later on in the mid seventies I noticed the young framers using te 22-28 oz. weapons.
I have been so frustrated over the past 20 years trying with the same patience to teach a half dozen helpers the same techniques, but with zero success. That's one reason I've gone total solo in the last five years.
When I was in my early 20s I was an apprentice carpenter in a union. There was this old guy "Flip" - the crew leader or whatever. Thinking back he was probably younger than I am now... I was on a prefab frame crew and worked in "the yard". The yard was an outdoor area with some overhead roofs, some radial arm saws set up, etc. I remember Flip used to bixxh at us "If I see you sissies choked up on those hammers like that I'm coming over there with a circ saw and cuttin' off those handles." I think most of us had steel shanked hammers :-). Another time we were building re-useable forms for footers. We were using MDO plywood I think it was. Flip would come by with his tape measure and if your forms weren't within a 32nd" or so, he'd start hurling the insults.... In retrospect, I think he was really a nice guy and was bound and determined to make not only men but carpenters out of us longhairs. About a year later I got laid off with about 90% of the guys, but he gave me a fat raise the week before. I read that to mean that he really thought I was a good guy but they just didn't have the work.
BTW - I've got a kick out of some of the people here saying that they would rather use screws to assemble framing than nails because nails were hard to work with... Hummmm.... I wonder how I learned to type...
Well I'm sure glad I'm not the only one who uses a lighter hammer with a shorter handle (as compared to the new ones). I was beginning to think I must have been wrong all these years because I don't even remember monster hammers back in the 60's.
I must admit that for some reason I do have a problem hitting nails now. Finishing nails, I'm are a disaster. I really think the steel in the nails are softer because I can't remember ever bending as many nails as I do now.
Can't blame it on air nailers because I only got one recently.
I guess it's like most things in life in that practice makes perfect and I'm never doing the same thing long enough to get really good at it or at least as good as I once was.roger
I've been driving nails since the 70's. I did 25 years with a 20oz Rocket. I've did the last few with a titanium which hits like a Rocket. I bend nails with a lighter, shorter hammer. The rhythm is all wrong for me when I try to drive nails with a lighter shorter hammer. It's kind of like trying to coax the nails into the wood instead of driving them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Sanchez,
I'm reading this thread, and relating to everything I'm reading.
Thinking I should start another thread, " Why can't new kids cut a line with a skilsaw??"
Cheers, Harry
Whenever we're nailing the flanges on new windows or doors I have my guys put their left hand just left of which nail their nailing. We do a descent amount of vinyl windows with built in J channel. You don't get a second chance if you miss the nail, you break the vinyl. If you have your left hand their, you hit your hand. No damage to the window and you learn very quickly how to nail. I've been doing this for 12 years and I still use my left hand for protection on windows. Never ask your employees to do something you wouldn't do.
Chuck
Yeah - your hand will heal, but the window won't!;)
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Y'know that kid might not know it but he is lucky he found you.
Work em, work em and if they finish and find themselves with nothing to do, they clean up.
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
When I was a kid starting out (about 70 or 71) my favorite thing was pounding nails. I loved the feel of smashing a nail through a 2x4.....legal agression...intoxicating.
I usually set a nail in two three whacks with a 16oz high end hammer that cost all of 6.00 or something........hated nail guns. (especially in Alaska in the winter...they were steel then and would freeze a hand wearing even mittens)
Today I gotta laugh at all these fancy hammers...fancy tools....and all the cheap #### shoddy building that they create......
When I taught my kid to hammer I had him hold the nail in a way that if he was about to create a monkey smile on something he would first hit his finger....( sorta like holding a cigarette)....nothing as ugly as seeing brick moulding all beat to hell by monkeys.
I consider myself to be at least an above average hand nailer. I attribute this acquired skill to spending my first 3 years in the trades on crews where there were no guns. We were forced through a lack of alternatives to develop our nailing skills by driving a wide variety of fasteners.
Forms--16d duplex commons.
Sill Plate--16d hard cuts.
All Framing---8, 10, and 16d brite cmmons.
Sheathing--8d sinkers.
Fascia, Rake, and Freize--10d galv. buttonheads.
Windows and Doors--12d galv. finish.
Soffit--6d galv. common.
Treated Decks--12 and 16d galv. spiral.
You get the picture. For me, same hammer for my entire career. 20 oz. smooth face Vaughan short handle. I still like hand nailing today.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
It must be the video game generation... the kids who work for us are pathetic to the point where if I suggest they hand nail, I get that tilting head chimpanzee look.
We were framing sections for a roof deck one day and while one guy was setting up the compressor me and a kid (24 y.o.) start framing. After about 5 min I finished my side, look up, and the kid is standing there hammer in hand..."what's up" "He says; my hammer doesn't work like yours".
I'm no lifer in this business but I apparently I built enough stuff without benefit of batteries and pneumatics that driving a nail second nature.
Forget driving screws by hand as well.
As to soft finish nails Maze Nails makes hardened finish nails that are a definite improvement.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I remember the 1st builder, Victor, I worked for and the coaching he gave me when it came time to learn how to pound nails. This was back 1978. I remember Vic being impatient with me at times but I easily came up to speed in a couple of months.
Some of the tips Vic gave me were to choke up on the hammer when I needed accuracy, and not to swing with my arm but with my wrist. With a little practice and patience you can find yourself up to speed before too long.
I enjoyed hand nailing, and was fearful and a nail gun injury so much that I never did want to switch over the compressor and nail guns, but as I got older and suffered through a few bouts of tendinitis and carpal tunnel I made the switch over to pneumatic nailing.
My biggest fear with air nailing is the split second your attention might turn away from what you are doing and the damage a pneumatic nail gun can do to your knee or hand or other body part. I have been fortunate enough to never have experienced a nail gun injury, and that fear may have been part of the reason why it took me well into my 30's before I started using a compressor and stick nails to build my projects. One word of warning, I read an article about air nailing related injuries in this country. The statistic was alarming. There are 47,000 emergency room injuries related to nail gun injuries, and I grant you the fact that a lot of them are home owners playing with their construction "toys". Just a word of caution to all, it is so easy to climb a ladder with your hand on the safety and hit you knee or to set a spike into your hand, so just be careful out there.
"not to swing with my arm but with my wrist."I worked with a guy once who had been nailing for years with a stubby short handle and swinging from his elbow like it was a club. He has started having problems with his elbow.I had him get a real hammer and taught him to swing from the wrist. In a week, he was driving nails with fewer licks and his elbow pain wentaway
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I guess if a hammer is a problem, a hand saw is out of the question???
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
Hand saws are great. I've offered a hand saw to every guy that I hired since the 80's. That's the saw I'll provide. If they want to use something different, like a power saw, they can bring their own. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You sound like my Uncle. I did part of my apprenticeship with him. Hand saw, hacksaw, hand plane. We did everything manually. Framed three houses together, by hand. Then he got setup with airtools and we increased our output for each day.I see it every day. Young guys will just about do anything to not have to hand nail.
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
"Young guys will just about do anything to not have to hand nail"
Call me a young guy then LOL. I converted to air in the 80's when I saw a rookie put together some difficult 2x2 framing around a basement duct. He effortlessly assembled it without busing anything up. I then realized how valuable the air system was.
I then began to make great profits by using air on every aspect of our custom frames. Our pricing was based on handnailing because that's what everyone else bid it at but we could chop 30% of the time off using air. NICE!
I did hire one apprentice in the 90's and wouldn't let him use the air until he demonstrated that he could put a wall together with his hammer. He complained about it at the time but has thanked me many times for being so stubborn.
No one really took my offer for the handsaw because I also warned them that I based my payroll on productivity. They all brought their own saw and cord. Amazing isn't it? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Young guys will just about do anything to not have to hand nail."Yeah - three sheets pf sheathing left and the gun goes down - they are ready to pack it in and quit for the day!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"eah - three sheets pf sheathing left and the gun goes down - they are ready to pack it in and quit for the day!"Back in my union apprentice days, we worked only a seven hour day: 7 to 3:30. We would have left one sheet if the clock said 3:25, which was rollup time. I started at 7 and I was rolled up at 3:30. Every day. I was stubborn that way because the old man use to want to start five and ten minutes early and it peeved me. I figured that if it wasn't okay for me to waltz in late then it wasn't okay for him to start us early. When I took over running the job, we didn't start late and we didn't work late.It's actually a good policy. At 7am the jets were fired up and they weren't turn off till 3:30. At 3:30, the fuel tanks were empty. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Back in my union apprentice days, we worked only a seven hour day: 7 to 3:30
uh huh... hour and half lunch?View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
LOL
We started at 8. It was an 8 to 3:30 day, half hour lunch, 15 minute break.In my last years with the union, they went back to that 7 to 3:30 shift. I remember the transition well. I instantly found out that I couldn't work at the same breakneck speed for eight hours. I had to change my pace to survive eight. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
As a roofer, I never worked the clock. Got paid piece work and never left a roof open overnight.Then when I moved here and guys have to quit early enough to get to the last ferry ride home, I had to adjust my thinking
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree. There isn't much "whip" in a short handle and lightweight hammer. The flick of the wrist with a longer lever delivers more hitting power with less effort. The guys also often have to be shown that they don't need a death grip. Pinching a hammer between the thumb and first finger is all that is needed to create the whip. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
when I am framing, I usually have thumb and two fingers around the handle right at the end. Shingling puts three fingers on the handle of the hatchet, I think because I am regularly flipping the blade around to pick up shingle tabs.Trim work means I am using a full grip for fine control.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I change up my grip too. I didn't mean to imply that I routinely nailed with only two fingers. I'd just do the two finger thing to demonstrate that the nails could be pounded in without the death grip and full arm swing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
why can't new kids pound nails?'
Same reason I see old guys that can't. Lack of practice. It's got nothing to do with what generation someone is from. I've seen 50 year old plumbers bend half a pouch full of spikes trying to get their shower valve blocking nailed in and I've seen my old boss' 14 year old kid nail off subflooring like a whiz. Set and sink. Set and sink. Set and sink...... all day long.
#### that's about all I can do really well is pound nails!
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
No, I think that is pretty much normal for the times. Nowadays every thing is so automated that the old ways are gone. Here's a scary example. I was helping a friend out at his stag and doe. I ran one of the games. The idea of the game was to drive a 6" spike into a block of maple as far as you could with one strike. By the end of the night I had made a couple hundred bucks for the bride and groom. The prize a rather large bottle of Crown Royal. Sadly, I won the prize. No one could beat me.
The scary thing was that most guys in place worked in the trades. I couldn't believe it. It really is quite disgusting. I tell you, if the power goes out for any length of time, these guys will be out of business. I'm guessing they don't know how to use a handsaw either! LOL
Dave
dirtysanchez,
You know every single generation complains about the next generation.
The reality is so what? You said he works hard, can frame, do siding, etc..
Sounds like you are insecure. The young bucks will take over and force you out of a job..
They will eventually and force you to retire. But not before you're ready..