Rant Alert–Whoooaaaaa–Rant Alert:
Having a SIPs home built…I asked the contractor to seal up the windows tight. He instructs the insulation sub to seal up the windows tight. The sub gets done with windows and I have a look-see…slivers of daylight on every one I check. I tell the contractor what I see, and show him. He tells the sub, sub comes back, walks around with a can of foam doing something…who knows what…then I check again, same situation, except this time the drywalls are already in place.
When I informed the contractor, he got pissed at the sub and told me he instructed them precisely what was to be done. So now I still have a compromised building envelope. Sub will have to come back to do it again, except this time it’ll be harder to do it right.
Contractor has worked with this sub before…sub is established in the bidness…long time…big Yellowpages add, large crew…etc. So what the hell????!!
I assume this is their standard procedure for sealing windows. If so, this SUCKS–unbelievable–these are supposed to be professional insulators. Can anyone suggest why simple directions can’t be followed? I ask because this is not the only sub on my home to have done this. I won’t get into what the plumber and excavator decided to do on their own.
Replies
We are suppose to be contractors / builders not babysitters.
Can anyone suggest why simple directions can't be followed?
If I, as a builder, could answer this question and provide a solution, and do the same with other questions like "Why can't some subs do want they say they will do?" "Why don't they return calls?" Why don't they show up for work?" , I could build more homes each year becasue I would cut my work week in half.
I went to blowes saturday, needed some 1/2 inch pvc. Took all six pieces he had. Ask the plumber associates, I need four more pieces. " Dont have any" then what is that pallet behind you. "oh need a fork lift" what is that setting over there. "Oh need a operator" What about the guy that operation now. " Oh they are busy, be a couple hours" excuse me, can you get that down, "Sure"You just want to grab them by the hair of the neck and say... "DO YOUR JOB"
That's the manager's fault. He needs to kick some azz.
Belowe's here would check the puter then run all over the place trying to find it,
'Course here in littletown they are still appreciative of your business
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Been there on many occasions. Same ugly problems calling "pro sales".
Too many times I have been in Home desperate & Blowes looking for a paticular fitting, & some plumbing dept hand will ask "why do you need that -- what ya buildin".
My usual responce is I need somethin to slow down the fuses on my pipe bombs.
Tell em yup bombs I'm goin fishin & a rod & reel is too boring.
I swear some think I'm actually serious.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
could answer this question and provide a solution, and do the same with other questions
You're thinking small. <g>
If I had those answers, there'd be a very expensive phone number to call, and Bill Gates would be my "finger lifter" <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Easy solution. Works everytime, ALWAYS!
Builder is ALWAYS on site. No sub. ever leaves a job without it first having been inspected by the builder on the job. My subs know I'm on the job. They know, I know what to do. They know, I'll check and not let them leave until it's right. Their getting payed is based upon full job completion. When it comes to subs, the cream rises to the top in this situation. Good subs love working for good builders, they exhibit the same level of concern for a job that the builder does. Garbage in, garbage out.
I work ONE project at a time. I charge accordingly, I make money, I have customers who know they got their monies worth. I get ALL work through referrals. I FIX MISTAKES, cause I'm not perfect, but I am damn good!
Were you willing to pay more. Are you willing now? Mass builders get away with it because people look at price and scheduling first. When the job is done (or theoretically done), they almost always regret going with mass builders. Mass builders are fast, they are less expensive, and this is a result of economies of scale. I can't compete with them on those two criteria. But I can almost always outbuild them, and my clients can talk to me everyday.
Good luck, Glen in Canada
A round of applause for Legacycon ladies and gentleman - spoken like a true vet.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Well said!My main helper says I think of everything. I don't. But I damn sure try!Just ignore the mass production people. They fill a market and so do you. You don't really want to build for all the folks that buy those crap houses, anyway, do you?++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Part of being a good contractor/builder, IS being a babysitter.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Babysitter is the operative word here.
Babies should are in the nursery, a construction site is a place for mature responsible grown ups, but it just does not happen.
Well if you are to the point of having drywall in (assuming the outside of the house is dried in) and can still see daylight around the windows, you may have a bigger problem than some air infiltration around the windows. If your windows were installed and flashed properly on the outside there wouldn't be anyplace for light to get in. Any foam your insulation contractor puts in is just to stop air infiltration, not water.
Maybe I am missing something but it sounds to me like the sub who needs a call-back is the one that flashed the windows.
Regards,
Dennis
Good point! I wish I could say that I am surprised the contractor didn't mention this. The material that they used to tape up the windows didn't stick too well. See pic. The exterior finishes are being installed this week. They are stapling the tape in place where it's not sticking. Feel free to comment about this.Why is behavior like this tolerated in this industry? I sound so naive reading the responses to this thread. I am reminded of the article in the latest FH issue about how subs only rate higher than (rodeo?) cowboys in the respect category....well deserved??!?If I were tasked to write code to process data, but screwed around instead, I'll be out on my ####.
NO matter what, according to your picture, the windows are flashed improperly.
Yes they are and since flashing is a basic of installation I'd suspect the whole installation has problems... missing insulation may be the least of his problems.
Post #13 states my thought exactly. That tape to the Tyvek is not, and never was, intended to be flashing for keeping water outside where it belongs. All it could hope to do is to reduce drafts through the unfoamed jamb spaces when the wind blows. Doesn't look like it even does that, since tape is peeled off.Bill
<font color=red>Why is behavior like this tolerated in this industry?</font><P>Because that's what most are willing to pay for. Whether I like it or not, caveat emptor probably applies more to construction than any of large scale purchases. My experience is that most clients will compromise their whole project to save 10%.The good builders/remodelers have an uphill battle to just stay in business until they can build enough of a reputation to do the quality work they want to do.
edit- I forgot to click the "HTML" buttonJon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Edited 4/25/2006 6:17 pm ET by JonBlakemore
Being a good builder is a quality of life choice, not a wealth choice. Rich builders either do something, or know something I don't... but I sleep great.
I've bought cheap cars...burned. I've bought cheap tools...burned. We all do it. We've all fallen for the talk. Slick is slick, but cheap is cheap. These builders have salesman for a reason.
I do my best. I research, I work hard, and I truly care what others think about me as a builder. If I'm not sure what to do...I stop, research, then do it right the right way. Sometimes this costs the customer more, but I feel like the king of the world when I solve a problem that the clown parade has already taken a crack at (and a chunk out of the customer). My hand doesn't shake when I collect my check. I like being able to look my clients in the face when I see them on the street. I love what I do, so why would I cheat myself? Like I say, it's a quality of life choice.
Glen in Canada
"My hand doesn't shake when I collect my check. I like being able to look my clients in the face when I see them on the street. I love what I do, so why would I cheat myself? Like I say, it's a quality of life choice."Wise words, Glen, wise words.In fact, words to live by.
Well, I'm not a builder but flashing windows properly isn't rocket science. Most windows come with the instructions on how to do it. I wouldn't be too worried about that bottom piece of flashing tape being loose. Some window mfg don't even want the bottom nailing fin flashed for drainage purposes. But since you said you can see daylight around the window, I assume there are more problems than just the bottom nailing fins.
Myself, I would get those windows flashed properly even if you have to do it yourself. If you get a leak after the siding is up, flooring is in etc it will cost a lot more to fix than doing it the right way now.
FWIW, I had to do exactly that on my house. I showed my framers exactly how I wanted the windows detailed and they still couldn't get it right so I redid the two they had already flashed and did the rest myself.
Why is behavior like this tolerated in this industry?
Shoddy work is tolerated in every industry, construction, manufacturing, restaurants, IT, etc etc. If you want the best it is going to take longer and cost more. Most people aren't willing to spend more to get things done right.
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis, I hope you back charged them for your time.
I hope you back charged them for your time.
No I didn't. If I would have back-charged them for all the stuff they screwed up they might have ended up doing the frame for free :)
I was on site that whole day anyway to help them set the big windows so my doing the flashing just meant we got the house dried in a little sooner.
Regards,
Dennis
some of the subs in houston motto i do not have time to do it right but have time to come back
I thought that was....
we haven't the time energy nor money to do it right the 1st time...
but there's always the 2nd time or untill we do get it right......Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The saying that makes me shudder;
"It aint my house"
AAARGH!
It is my house damnit, everytime I drive past it, it's still my house, my porch, my addition, my door, my window, my roof, my millwork, etc.
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
or can't see it from my house...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
View Image
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
thanks.........
.
.
'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
"feel free to comment" why would you flash the bottom of a window, on the "exterior" of the flange?the flashing/tape falls off because DOW/tyvek probable only makes one tape that will stick through any element outside and probable cost 100$ a roll.
I would be concerned about the fact that the top flashing is stuck on OVER the Tyvek instead of slipped under it as it should be. Water flows downward, so every layer of water resistand materials should overlap whatever is below it. BruceT
Hopefully you didn't pay in advance. You control the checks so you control the quality of the work. Things like that are done because too many trades people are bidding too low to provide quality service.
It's the clients responsibility to insure all work is up to snuff before paying.
The other side is that once the work is finished and properly done payment should be timely.
Like another poster mentioned, you usually get what you pay for.
I would never expect payment for substandard work and would never pay a sub who didn't do exactly as he was told. That includes cleaning up after himself!
It's the same reason some cashiers at McDonalds stand around and talk while there is a line of people, while the other cashier busts a$$ trying to keep up. It's equal parts lack of supervision, and laziness.
Doncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
All you big builder types done clapping yourselves on the back?
If you need to babysit your subs and mop up after them all the time, then why are you still using them?? Have anything to do with $$$, I wonder? Pay for quality and you'll get quality. Look around, we're still here. We just cost a little more.
Me? I'm still wondering why you can see any daylight at all on a window installed with a nailing flange.... even without flashing or insulation?!? Who the hell figured out the ROs on them things?
deiselpig...I fire them. Then I eat the time and do it myself until I can replace them.
When the customer faces the choice of a delay, or sub par workmanship, well, for my clients it is a no brainer.
But you are right, these subs exist for the same reason people use mass builders. But I don't use them, do you?
How do you deal with this issue?
Glen in Canada
I'm a framing sub.View Image
Ouch!
What makes you do quality work? What can we learn from your side of the contract?
What can we as the job lead do to ensure the best quality job? What do we do wrong that gets in your way of doing your best work?
I know I'm not perfect, and could use your observations to help me improve.
Glen from Canada
Brian
If you need to babysit your subs and mop up after them all the time, then why are you still using them?? Have anything to do with $$$, I wonder? Pay for quality and you'll get quality. Look around, we're still here. We just cost a little more.
This paragraph and some of legacycon's comments are right on!
Well said, its not all that complicated either.
Doug
coupla year ago I was subing on a project that my buddy Joe was the lead and running the whole show.
at one point ... one of us dirty bastard subs or another failed to show on time ...
as the home owner lady was about to have a breakdown ... and asking ...
"why Joe ... why ...."
Joe put it like this ...
"remember back in high school ... there was that group of guys wearing leather jackets, they'd skip class and hang out by the boys room and smoke cigarettes?"
well ... they all barely graduated and now they all work construction ... and most of them become subcontractors ... so when they show up a little late ... we're just happy they showed up at all!
kinda sad ... a little funny ... a little true.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Cut the drywall back a 1" refoam, the windows that are not acceptable.
Run some 6" grace ice and water shield around outside of window flange. Run the bottom first 6" past each side, run the sides overlap bottom, 6" above top. Apply flashing to top of window, run 6" grace over top and lap sides. Problem solved, water and air tight.
Hey Dan, you left out the part about running the head flashing under the Tyvek.
I think that is where part of the improper flashing comments are coming from. First thing that jumped out at me tryin to see what was in that pic (a touch nearsighted). ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
When I said apply flashing at top and then run grace over, thats what I was suggesting should have called it head flashing. Sometimes when you do this for a living, its like riding a bike.
Thanks no harm no foul
>>"Sometimes when you do this for a living, its like riding a bike.
Yup, I figured that's what you meant but u just forgot to mention it.
Trying to tell someone how to do it in every detail can take longer than doing it. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I just got back from the Marvin site to see their installation instructions to get a better idea what you were talking about. I can't say for sure if my windows were installed this way. I know the flanges were nailed down before I checked the installation...how the heck was I able to see daylight??!?! I don't think it was refracted light coming through the plastic, it was bright as...eh...day.I didn't want to look over people's shoulders and tried to treat them as professionals...but I guess this is the reward.Thanks.
I reckon the light your seeing is from the flange not completely sealing to the wall, not uncommon. Plus the fact that most of the nailing flanges have factory holes or slots for nailing. So if the rough opening, doesn't cover those slots completely, hence light showing thru.
Foaming inside should have solved that, if done correctly. Looking at outside your install shows only tyvek tape not ice and water shield, which is a rubberrized outside and a tar based sticky substance inside (for lack of better term). Used alot for waterproofing roofs. Any of the big boxes or lumbar yards sell it.
Comes in rolls and you can get in 6" widths. Your window installation instructions don't go that far into the procedure I described.
Where is the building inspector on that job also? The local bar?
Yellowpages?!!
If you're telling me that you got these contractors from there, then I'm improperly blaming you. Nothing wrong with the Yellow Pages, but there should be references.
Reality is, you have every right to rant. It sounds like it's time for the sub to get kicked out on his can and for the GC to do the damned insulating himself. I would be totally embarrassed. Now it makes one wonder and doubt about the rest of the work. The GC has gotta know that this is the type of thing that will eventually hang him. A good word of mouth rep is like pure gold.
" A good word of mouth rep is like pure gold."
And as my GC is consistently proving, a good word of mouth rep can be had even if you allow substandard work. I'm assuming that he got rave reviews because he does, periodically, show up. Too bad you can't go back and tell his references what you think of their recommendation.
Good references can be jokes. I love them, I need them, I work hard to get them...but unless the customer knows the work was well done, how good is the reference really? In the end, it is the customers resposibility to know if the work is being done properly or not. The problem is this is often near impossible. Catch 22. I've seen work done by people who came highly recommended...ugh. Ultimately the builder is responsible for the results they give, and the customer is responsible for the results they get.
I have a mechenic I trust and use exclusively. I know he's been good to me because I'm the kind of guy who likes to know a little about everything, so I can sometimes tell when I'm getting fed a line, I've never gotten that vibe from him. Maybe he's hosing me, but I don't think so. There is no easy answer except being prudent and keeping the leash short until someone has EARNED your trust.
Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
True words. This GC came highly recommended by a neighbor who should know quality work (he's a cabinetmaker). According to the GC, it's the subs - tile sub that he's used for years isn't showing up, and when he does the tiles are uneven and there are big voids in the grout, countertop guys must be on drugs the way they've cut (and cut again) the countertops, plumber (supposed to be the best around?) thinking it is OK to break off a now unused cast iron vent pipe and just leave it hanging there so that several days later it goes plummeting through a ceiling (not to mention the 6 inch hole in the roof during 2 weeks of rain). The list is much longer, but I'm just annoying myself.
This is a T&M job, and we pay $40/hour for the GC plus the 10% he adds to everything (so it's really $44 when he's here). That means we get to pay for the original screwup, plus his time to fix it, plus in some cases the additional materials to fix it (when they cut the door too short, we ended up owning the too-short door and still have to buy one the right size). I KNOW we could have done a better job on the things we know how to do.
It totally sucks and I'm holding Jeff Buck responsible for talking me out of going with UBuildit and hiring a contractor instead :)
aimless,
To be fair, there are always problems, don't think you're missing the opportunity to have had a problem free build. It doesn't exist. I say this for your sanity. Keep an eye on it, stick to your guns, and don't just pay for stupid mistakes. Talk to the builder, maybe he's terrified your gonna kill him on this job that is turning into a nightmare for him to. Try to work out some compromises, now is the time to start negotiating, not pulling your hair out, even if it's justified! Or, if it's too much to deal with, walk the gc out the door. That's your right under T&M.. But that's a big move, not to be done without trying to work out solutions first.
Good luck, Glen in CanadaCustom build, heritage restoration, heritage millwork.
We expected problems - it's a remodel. That's why we went with a T&M contract - we didn't want him to lose money or to have to overbid to cover problems. I feel we've been patient and accommodating. The poorly installed tile is still there (thank GOODNESS we didn't have them build a shower pan), the sink that isn't centered on the light fixture is still there, the (expensive) trim tile piece that chipped out when they cut it and then installed anyway is still there, the other counter that had half inch gaps from the cabinets is still there. We've tried to come up with creative solutions for hiding the problems rather than forcing them to rip it out and do it over. We've patiently waited through numerous contractor junkets out of town so that what should have been a 3 week job has stretched into 3 months (and counting), and wondered at his surprise when none of the subs showed up in his absense. When we've been totally disgusted with the work we've bitten our tongues, cooled down, and then spoken politely with the contractor rather than addressing the subs directly. We've paid promptly.
I don't see how the contractor has any concerns at all - we can't possibly kill him on this job, the big expenses in materials are paid. If we don't pay him for work, the subs will file a lien on our house, not his. We have no ground to stand on for a compromise - he's got nothing to lose. And because we have to pay, and pay again, for mistakes, it forces us to swallow work that we'd have ripped out had we done it ourselves.
I feel like I should have just called around town and gotten the lowest bidder. Then I could be mad at myself.
>>>>Too bad you can't go back and tell his references what you think of their recommendation.<<<<You can't ???
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
Is the cost of a good neighbor worth venting my displeasure?
Absolutely not.Would it have to cost a good neighbor ? Would it necessarily have to be adversarial ?One last...You are still in the middle of doing the work. It is entirely possible that after you are finished, you may forget the bad experiences if you are happy with the end result.I have seen good referrals of bad contractors after bad experiences... for just that reason. The customer forgot all the bad stuff after a while, because they were pleased with the end result.Maybe your neighbor will remember some bad experiences, and the two of you can commiserate ?=0)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
They are friends as well as professionals. If you raved to me about somebody's work, and then I turned around and told you that I was dissatisfied with their performance, how would you feel? I think just by going to my neighbor and saying anything that it becomes adversarial. Better to keep my mouth shut and grumble here.
>>>>If you raved to me about somebody's work, and then I turned around and told you that I was dissatisfied with their performance, how would you feel?<<<<I can tell you it certainly would have no effect whatever on our friendship.=0)But I will accede the point.
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
I would call the GC and tell him that he and I will be spending a day removing the windows and properly flashing them according to the manufacturers instructions.I would have said instructions in writing on such day and materials needed to complete this project. If he is unwilling to do this I would stop all work and find another contractor to help finish out the remaining work and tell him that I will be filing a report with the BBB and and going to his suppliers and tell them how disgruntled I am with his unprofessional attitude and unwillingness to right his wrong.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
To be honest, it sounds like the builder may have been ok on the other job, but on your job, he used his 'B' or even 'C' team, and he didn't babysit them like he should have.If you use good subs, you don't have to babysit. But if he used crappy subs, he should have been around to babysit them. It sounds like he opted for more profit/less quality on your job than on your neighbor's job.You shooda called U-Bild-It...;o)
The destination is not the point. The completion is not the point. Enjoy today. If you can't enjoy today, then what is the point ?
"Can anyone suggest why simple directions can't be followed?"
There are a set of humerous corollaries to Murphy's Law, one of which is:
No command or instruction is that simple that it cannot be misunderstood!!!!
It may be too late for you, but performance based standards in your contract with the builder might have helped.
When a builder knows that he won't get the final payment if, for example, the house won't pass a blower door test or the ducts won't pass a leak test, they tend to ride herd on the subs a leeeetle bit tighter. When a sub knows his work will be inspected and no pay for no play, they tend to actually pay attention to what they are doing. Might increase the bids (likely will) but that's money well spent.
Ideally, you'd have the architect inspecting the work before you make progress payments. Commonplace on commercial jobs. Most (if not all) commercial lenders require it. Might become spendy on a residential job but would solve a lot of your issues.
Finally, you ask "why do tradespeople do this." They don't. Hacks do what was done on your house. Get your terminology straight.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 4/26/2006 8:42 am ET by philarenewal
"performance based standards"...damn, wish I'd thought of that. As for my terminology, I am the HO, it's all the same to me--perception IS reality.
"He instructs the insulation sub to seal up the windows tight."
Seems like this should be a job for the window installer. Shouldn't be much light coming through with modern flanged windows, insulated or not.
I took a closer look at the windows, it looks like their installations deviate from what Marvin/Integrity recommends. There's no pan flashing, no adhesive used on the flanges. It looks like the Tyvek was X cut and folded into the RO. Then the windows set in place and the flanges nailed down. Then this blue stuff was taped to over the flanges on to the Tyvek.
How common is it to not install per mfg's instructions? How do you guys install your windows? Does this vary by region/weather? Your responses could determine a do-over sitchiation.
Edited 4/26/2006 5:03 pm by tufenhundel
How common?
One major window mfg estimates 85% of their windows are installed incorrectly. Since the manfacturer is responsible for the warrenty it is never acceptable to have a product installed not per instructions. Ask the installer why he thinks his installation is superior to the manufacturers..... And I suspect that blue tape is nothing more then painters tape.
You are so screwed it really is sad.
Good luck... you need it.
Yeah, this is a good question to ask him. Gawd, I was in this situation before with a remodel job, and vowed this wouldn't happen here.I guess I expected more quality from a "custom" builder than from quantity-type builders.
I agree, stop the job. Builder is not paying attention or probably doesn't know any difference.
We used Integrity windows on our house. I installed all of them according to Marvin's instructions. We had a pretty big leak on one of the big triple mulled units. Of course it didn't show up until after brick was done.
My yard sent the Marvin district rep out to look at the problem and the first words out of his mouth was "Probably not installed properly. Not our problem." So I showed him photos of the windows before brick was laid and it was clear that they were flashed correctly.
He sent out a tech who found out the window was leaking where they were mulled at the factory. They fixed the windows, but my point is that at least this rep was quick to point out that if they weren't installed per their instructions, they weren't going to help with the problem. Better safe than sorry.
Good luck!
Dennis
Around here we get a sheathing inspection before siding can go on a house. The inspector also has to look at any literature that comes with the windows and doors. If the window manufacturer specs pans and caulk, and they're not there, no siding.
I don't think an inspector is going to like the way the head tape is over that house wrap, either.
Work like that gets done because the gc has historically let the next guy fix it...sucks