In many areas of downtown Toronto the majority of lots tend to be very narrow, and small. The houses on them are all getting on in age and I have seen a number of these houses being demolished and new ones built as property values rise. What strikes me that these houses are always site built. I have never seen a prefabbed house go up. It seems to me that building a house in a factory would likely be cheaper, faster, and easier. If I was a carpenter I’d much rather work in a climate controlled building rather then onsite – especially in winter.
I would think that these lots would be ideal situations for prefabbed housing. Nothing too fancy, small so that sections can be transported by road, and easy access from the street for a crane.
In fact one company I have read about will add a floor to your house in a day. They tear off the roof and bring in a new floor and roof by crane. So why not do the whole house that way?
Outside the city there are huge building developments going up and you never see a prefabbed house. I don’t know why the developer doesn’t build the house in a factory and assemble them with a crane on site. I know it can be done as I understand that’s they way houses are built in Japan.
Replies
Often local zoning rules and officials, as well as politics can be a major disincentive.
Jon
Edited 6/17/2004 12:50 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Obviously you have not read the latest issue of FHB...ther's an article therein about just this subject.
When I saw the title ... 'Why not build more houses in factories' ... I knew I had the answer right away ... because nobody wants to live in a factory.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Also, people want a unique house and picking the one on page 17 of the catalog blows that illusion out of the water. Sort of odd, because the same people will run out to buy the same Ford Explorer as the neighbors got. Maybe housing is one area where we deny the extent to which we are hear animals.
One driver in my area for factory-built houses is a lack of good site foreman. The grunds can't into too much trouble in the factory with good plans to work off of. And the one site manager can run from job to job for the much faster erection time.
And, as you say, working in a 65F factory is nicer than a -10F winter day.
I was surpirsed when I saw how many new homes in the US are manufactured. Like 30%. Many in the SE and Florida where there are lot of simple 2 BRs going up, hundreds to a development.
A house on our street (in Toronto, North York to be precise) had an addition done modularly, probably by the people you're talking about. Took a lot more than a day, though the shell was up in a couple days. Guess what? It was "glued on", and it looks it. Totally disharmonious with the existing structure and the rest of the street. They're still working on it so nothing's for certain, but I'm sure they'll just glob an ungodly coat of stucco over the whole thing in an attempt to tie it all together and then walk away saying, "Finish- no more!". I'm hesitant to even do trusses for my renovation, given the variability in dimensions I KNOW are in my existing construction. There'll be lots of field-fitting needed to tie everything together without my addition ending up looking like a tumour on the existing house.
New construction? I agree with you. Those developments where the whole subdivision is built to only five or six plans with minor customization are just aching for prefab construction methods to reduce the amount of installation skill needed and drop the cost per unit. Why aren't they done that way? I can only speculate. Probably the biggest reason is familiarity- people doing things they way they've always been done. Another might be that factory-type operations aren't as flexible to the boom-bust cycles of the housing industry- nobody in their right mind wants a plant big enough to build houses in to sit idle while the real estate market goes through another slump.
The subject of prefabrication is near and dear to my heart, since I'm in the truss business. (-:
Factory housing varies a lot from one region to the next. In some places it's considereed more "normal" than others. Modular homes haven't caught on around here, for instance. Partly because there are no modular manufacturers in the area.
I think there are a couple of reasons it hasn't caught on in a big way. First - Prefabrication takes planning. And people don't want to plan ahead. They want to wait until the last possible second to pick out their windows and such.
People like to change things, too. If they can call their framer and have him move a wall, it's no big deal. But changes in factory built stuff can be a problem. It takes time to get the engineering and paperwork done before something is built.
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Next would be attitudes. There's a perception that prefabricated structures are cheap, and/or poory built. It will take a lot of time to overcome that.
Trusses were thought of as cheap, spindly structures for a long time. Some places in the country STILL don't use them. Last I knew, something like 60% of new houses (nation wide) used trusses, and the rest were stick framed. I suspect the number will increase slowly.
Honestly, I think the trend towards more and more stuff being done in a factory will continue. Look at how much is done in the factory now. Virtually no one site builds windows anymore. Most doors are pre-hung. Trusses are on more than half the new houses in the country. You can even get a factory built foundation. (Like "Superior walls") The majority of houses use drywall instead of lathe and plaster.
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Given how much things have changed over the past 50 years, I figure they'll change that much more in the future. But who knows? Technology may change the course of building as new stuff comes down the road.
I fired my masseuse today. She just rubbed me the wrong way.
Here in Indianapolis, all of the production builders (95% of the market?) drop their framing packages off assembled. All the walls are factory built, stacked, and numbered. I don't see where it would make sense to do much more than that given clearances with bridges, utility lines, etc. Carpenters do a good job laying out the floor joists & rims & subfloor, and then all the walls tilt up and the roof trusses go on.
How much more factory do you want?
I'm not sure you get anything more putting drywall finishers, plumbers, sparkies, floor covering guys in a factory. The floor trusses or i-beams have knock-out panels. finishers are so fast I don't see them improing efficiency.
remodeler
"How much more factory do you want?"
I think the original poster was talking about modular homes.
"I'm not sure you get anything more putting drywall finishers, plumbers, sparkies, floor covering guys in a factory.
I think you could. You don't have travel time, poor jobsite conditions, weather delays, etc. The guys just more from one house to the next, doing their thing.
And I suspect things are planned and laid out better than a typical site built home. No calls to ask the homeowner if they've decided where they want the light fixtures, etc.
And you wouldn't have the homeowners stopping by every night, then calling to say "We've decided we don't like the way something looks, and we want to change..............."How do you get off a non-stop flight?
I think factory built homes will continue to take market share, and will eventually be a huge part of the market for new construction.....and I don't think it will be limited to 'catalogue' designs. I don't see any reason why custom stuff couldn't be built just as easily....as long as you have the data in the design software, and you can stage the materials for assembly, what difference does it make what size a wall is?
I saw some of the technology being used for this in Germany a couple of years ago (and I know it's in use in North America).....robot nailers framing walls, and nailing on sheathing....CNC chainsaws chopping out door and window openings....etc. Quality seemed very, very good to me. Also toured a mid sized, fairly high-tech truss plant recently (seemed pretty modern to me, not being very expert on truss plants).....again, CNC saws making pretty complicated cuts, lazer layout guides, all being driven by data and software. If they can get that part right, so everyone involved is using the same data to fabricate components, I don't see much in the way of taking a lot of work away from a site and putting it into a plant. And I see and deal with a lot of companies moving in that direction.....at least one told me recently their interest came at least partly from a shortage of people willing to work in job site conditions now. That, and their customers were asking for it more and more.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
"...their interest came at least partly from a shortage of people willing to work in job site conditions now."
That definitely may change the course of housing in the future. Pretty much every contractor out there has trouble getting jobsite help.
One thing I forgot to mention earlier was weather. When you put a modular up, the subfloor looks like it just came off the pile in the lumberyard. No edge swelling.
Adn the framing lumber is dry - No rust streaks under the nails from the 6" of rain you got before you got the roof on.Would a part-time bandleader be considered a semi-conductor?
Around here there are many places that fabricate homes in place and then move them to sites. They have all, from cheap ones to rather fancy, with features you find in the better homes.
They have a list of what you can order and will fabricate as you wish, even moving walls around, inside or outside, different finishes for floors, walls, roofs, etc.
I checked with three places for our house but all were nine months behind before they could start, once they received an order and take six to eight weeks to build one. They used to have some already built on the lot you could pick from. No more, the demand for them is terrific.
I have seen several around here and they are very nice houses. One disadvantage is that they get cracks on the move, but they frame them stronger than place build houses to withstand the move, the ones that know have told me. The cracks in the drywall are expected and repaired once on site. The only ones they make are for pier and beam or to go over a whole or partial basement, not for slabs.
Those houses have a place for small to medium housing and once finished, many with brick, you can't tell from the nearby houses which one is a modular one.
I’m not sure exactly what the definition of a modular house is. But what I assume the definition of that would be that the house is pre-built, virtually finished, before being joined in sections by crane on site. Yes that’s what I had in mind.
And it seems to me that with CAD/CAM you could custom design any house on computer, build in a factory, and assemble it on site. No need to use the same design over and over again.
Particularly interesting to me is that I see usually two types of foundation walls being used. Poured in place concrete or concrete block. Both types - labor intensive. Setting up forms or laying blocks doesn’t appeal to me.
I have seen ( on TV at least) preformed concrete foundations that are put in place and bolted together.
Can’t see why those haven’t become the norm. Why screw around with forms and have to worry about weather when you can have a foundation up in no time?
"I’m not sure exactly what the definition of a modular house is. But what I assume the definition of that would be that the house is pre-built, virtually finished, before being joined in sections by crane on site."
That's basically the definition of a modular house.
"And it seems to me that with CAD/CAM you could custom design any house on computer, build in a factory, and assemble it on site. "
Some modular manufaturers do custom stuff, others don't. It depends on the company and what market they want to pursue.
"I have seen preformed concrete foundations that are put in place and bolted together. Can’t see why those haven’t become the norm."
Two reasons come to mind. First would be that the technology is fairly new. It takes tme for people to get interested in the product and accept it. And it takes time for the manufacturers to expand their production/sales capabilities into new areas. And the product has to prove itself over time.
The 2nd would be that they're more expensive them conventional block or poured basements. Anything that's more expensive is going to have a hard time gaining market share.Have patience - It's important to wait for just the right moment before screwing someone over.
preformed concrete foundations that are put in place and bolted together. Back when I wore a shirt & tie, I used to have safe deposit vaults installed at some of my locations. They were shipped as panels, abotu 3 ft wide x 7+ ft tall with angle iron frames that were welded together into the vault shape. I guess the same idea could be used for the house foundation. But you still have to pour a footing or slab, and you have to get the dimensions right cuz those concrete panels only go together in the size that was shipped. And they're heavy, so you have to have a way to get them off the truck and into positioon on the far side of the house...might take a fair size crane. That's where concrete block has its advantage...you can deal with small light sections at a time.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
the same idea could be used for the house foundation
The "tricky bit" as you pont out being footings and floors, but another would be the waterproofing.
But, this is construction, we do it the "way we always done it" (unless we find a better mousetrap--if we are payiny attention to new tech, etc.). Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"I have seen ( on TV at least) preformed concrete foundations that are put in place and bolted together. "
I've seen those too on commercial jobs, and I always wonder how they keep the water out of all those cold joints. If it's epoxy, seems like the fortune you'd spend in epoxy would discount the savings over poured in place.
How do you people know all these things ? i mean is it really just available out there to look at in a public library or something ?
How do you people know all these things ? i mean is it really just available out there to look at in a public library or something ?
Is this tongue in cheek, Frenchy? All what things? Only thing I've heard mentioned that I'm not certain you're familiar with is pre-cast foundations. Boss alluded to the name of at least one place doing them (the only one I know of for sure, but there's probably others) http://www.superiorwalls.com
Public library you're looking for would be the internet. Those of us that come here for research, and not politics, have seen these things discussed here on this site many times. LOL
Only thing I've heard mentioned that I'm not certain you're familiar with
No, it's photography <grin>
And, he's not very keen on painting at all . . . <g>
Some of us just have more time to learn "stuff" as we are not trying to roof a turret under a maximum height restriction (and doing a spanking good job of it, too).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
As far as working in a climate controlled enviorment for a carpenter, sounds good . I only know of two people that worked outside and then went to factory. My uncle was a stairbuilder for 40 odd years. Many years ago when stairs began being made in a factory, uncle Joe figured he would take a shot at it. He quit after 5 months, couldn't stand the monotany. He worked only for himself on custom stairs until he died at 88.
A friend of mine works in a modular home plant after working as a carpenter for 16 years. He is a foreman, likes the benefits, pay is not great. I did not ask him how much he earns, none of my business. He would like to quit, afraid they may layoff his nephews who he got jobs there. A controlled enviorment may sound good, but sometimes the grass is greener on the side of the fence your already on.
mike
Mike
While reading your post I was thinking how I would never want to go to a "factory" to build houses, I don't imagine that you would be called a carpenter anymore, just a factory worker/assembler.
I will take working in the rain/snow/hot sun or whatever elements come along, over working in a factory! God didn't make me to work on an assembly line. I'm sure that's what was going through your uncles mind.
Doug
How about: “Why not built more houses (or additions) like done in factories.”
Years ago when I still lived in Mich., we had a year where it seems it rained every other day, and a period when we happened to get several additions and detached garages.
My guys were losing down time, and it was my responsibility to them to try to give them their 40 hrs per week, so, I came up with an idea.
We bought a 16’ trailer. In our 24 x 48 warehouse we framed walls, installed insulation board, windows, service doors, T-1-11 siding or vinyl (popular back then), loaded them on the trailer and erected them at the site. In addition, gable end trusses had lookouts installed, aluminum facia and soffit installed and at the site, erected with it’s T-1-11 or vinyl siding installed.
Later, we did the same thing with railings & stairways for decks.
There is a way to take the “concept” of factory made houses, and apply those “applications” that are possible to do in our own mini warehouses.
There is more than one way to direct American ingenuity to stick built construction. For those of you who like the sun, you still get it, but with minimized down time due to the weather.
I am a stick frame builder as well as a dealer of prefab homes
refering to other posts.
Yes with cad programs we can order about anyhome you wnat and have it delivered in panels within 10 weeks. Yes you can go to "page 14 and pick plan "a" but for about 1.5 sq foot more build almost any design to the panel system
An 1800 sq foot single story, after foundation and floor are in ,with three of us and a crane for 1 day we can have all the walls up, in and out. the next day roll all the trusses and within another 2 days the house weathertight and locked up (in less then a week), ready for the subs to come in,. Thasts 3-tabed, windows in , doors locking, all inteior walls in place
kd 2x6, 16"o.c, 2x6 plates top and bottom, milgard windows, osb sidewalls , ply roof, can sub ply sides or T-1-11, real trusses, TJI floor trusses, ply floor, all inteior walls. All walls are prebuilt, windows installed, doors hung. building departemtn, insurance and bank consider them identical to stick frame, and after construction are considered stick framed homes.,
your looking at big rain clouds or snow coming, to close up in a few days is a nice thing.
the company I represent has been doing it since 1954 and they are very quality control oriented. Better work then some of the fast , throw it up, find labor quick jobs
disadvantages
as posted by others, changes, it costs a lot more to mve a window when you as the buyer see it for the first time, when the window and trim and siding are already in place, so after it is in production , its expensive to change.
bad foundations. Your foundation needs to be right on the money. If you getting a wall you ordered at 16'4 1/2 inches and your foundation is pourede a littel out of square or an inch long, stretching a wall is not easy with a kit
cost, to the consusmer the cost is about the same to a little less, as stick framed, if comprable built
to the builder, they will not make as much money if using the kits. the average kit, deliverd runs about 25 a square foot to the owner, 23.5 to the builder, 22.5 to the dealer. But a dealer or builder can sell for whatever they want
some builders in the area can build, using green lumber at 24"o,c,, lesser quality windows for bewtween 18 and 20 square foot, so potential depending on what they sell the house for and value the shell at, can make more stick framing
as a builder I make more on a site built adn keep local guys working longer
however one builder in our area uses them , and puts up quite a few so he makes his money back that way, he does not advertise them as panelized homes, and legally does not have to
Edited 6/18/2004 4:30 pm ET by hammertime
Edited 6/18/2004 4:34 pm ET by hammertime
here's a site to look around at ...
http://www.avisamerica.com
definitely not the kinda ya set on blocks and take the wheels off ...
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
It's funny about people wanting their own house design, when, especially in development done by one builder, you get plan A or the mirror image of plan A, or plan A flipped, etc. The thing that bothered me a lot when I worked wit ha framer was after we'd work so hard to make a well-built house, the plumber would come in a cut way half of the bottom plates for drains and then the HVAC guy would come through and cut away other structural components to put in his stuff and so on. Sometimes I was amazed the walls were able to stand after all the other guys came in to do their thing. I thought the structure should have been designed from the start to accomodate all the other systems that had to go in. Another thing was the subfloors--after shoveling snow off OSB all winter and then the mud and rain, the OSB was pretty shabby!