Clipped from the Toll Brothers website, this is one of their models being offered in Wellesley, MA. It is priced at about $1.6 mil.
I understand that Toll Brothers builds almost 100 percent panelized. Anybody see their projects go up? Does it look efficient? Are they saving money?
If they have decided that panelization makes sense, as has Pulte Homes, Lennar, some of the Centex divisions, and many other production builders, why hasn’t panelization trickled down more?
Replies
It is starting to trickle down more.
The panelizers are targeting their marketing efforts towards builders that will duplicate the same product many times over. This is where they can make their biggest financial impact.
We are seeing an influx of panelization efforts from Canadien firms. They are basically eliminating the lumberyard as a middleman. The Canadien truss manufacturers have basically added a wall framing component to their manufacturing facilities and shipping everything under one invoice. Some of the manufacturing is being done at the source, by the mills. The truss manufacturers are simply taking a cut and shipping the entire package.
Who is being cut out? The framers and the local lumberyards. The framers lose about 20% of their labor and the lumberyards lose large volume projects.
This is just another reason why the "business" of framing is heading downhill.
blue
Blue, I thought some more about why these biggies can be doing it, and why others find the threshold too high.
Toll Brothers and others like them have likely established their own truss and panel shops, or because of their scale, struck deals with component manufacturers for panel and trussmaking. Thus, with that much of the supply chain captured, their costs are lower than otherwise.
If they in fact own the plants, they are doing as you do, table boogerin', only without the fire barrel. They've likely got CNC in play for doing all the lumber length cutting, and the cutting of sheet goods as well.
I'd be surprised if the large homebuilders actually own any production. More likely that they have various producers in cutthroat competition with each other and waiting 120 days for their A/R. They're probably happier when the only ones actually on payroll are lawyer, accountants, and the head honchos. Throw everything else in the back yard and let the dogs fight over it.
We lived for a long time in the Pittsburgh area, and there was and is a production builder there named Ryan Homes.
As long as 25 years ago Ryan had integrated trussmaking, cabinetmaking, and door prehanging into their own operations, with shops of their own.
I would not be surprised if some of these production builders today have vertically integrated into panel making.
But you are right about the bash factor. The first step before vertical integration is to develop one of those "strategic partnerships," in which a supplier gets pummeled into starvation OH&P levels.
Edit: this just clipped from a news article . . .
Pulte is expected to build 28,000 houses in the U.S. this year, up from 22,000 in 2001. Its panelization effort launched in Michigan, but the company plans gradually to expand that nationwide. It is building a second component factory in Virginia to supply its East Coast developments, and it plans a dozen more around the country. NVR Inc. of MacLean, Va., operates five factories supplying prefab staircases, roof trusses and walls to its developments in 18 regional markets.
Ryan Homes changed its corporate identity to NVR about ten years ago.
Edited 11/19/2005 10:35 am ET by Stinger
Ain't that the truth - and, of course, "Quality" is their first priority.
Heading down hill is an under statement around here. Here is some photos from the track builder about 1 mile up the street from my project. This builder does 400-600 homes a year.
The company name is Oakwood. You cant find an extra stick of lumber on one of their job sites. Framers all from Mexico. ( like 90% of all residental framing in this town) I guess for Oakwood having panelization of most of the framing eliminates all of the problems that comes with a bunch on non-trained unskilled workers framing. Large % of the framers in this town have no clue as how to frame. Slap it together, they have no clue on crowning lumber, square, or plumb, ROs for windows doors, nailing patterns, etc.
If the framers on this project get over $1 sq.ft. I would be suprised. The companys slogan (Oakwood) is "More Home Less Money" http://www.morehouselessmoney.com/index.asp?nav=1
Are you saying that the floor systems are panelized and brought in on trucks too? If so, are those first floor systems & 2nd floor systems or are they the 2nd floor systems only and perhaps the first floor that is a mono slab on grade?
BTW - while taking a close look at a Centex panelized house that had recently been framed with a trussed roof I noticed that the interior wall (non load bearing partitions) were framed with only 1 top plate. This meant that the studs on these walls were 1.5" longer than the standard length studs on the exterior (load bearing walls). BTW - IMO there were definaely questions about how well the walls on the house were tied together. I guess it shows that when you are that big you can even have studs cut to the length that you specify... Either that or maybe Centex owned the factory where the walls were panelized. BTW - I'm about 80% sure that Centex still does site framed floor systems - or at least they were on those few houses I looked at.
Edited 11/20/2005 9:12 am ET by Mark_T
Floor decks, too? That is what the pic shows.
I cannot help but wonder about the integrity of panelized floor decks, which ship in sections 8-feet wide by joist length long, and are sheeted in t&g plywood or OSB. This method means there are no common-bond-type sheathing joints, as there are when a deck is sheathed on site.
I know what you are saying about the structureal integrity gained by the staggered installation pattern of floor sheathing on a site built floor system...
Pulte set up their panelization efforts in Michigan a few years ago. A former partner of mine was asked to supervise the factory, but refused.
Pulte only panelized the decks. The walls were still stick framed. The basement walls were precast concrete. They would ship them in and set them with a large crane. The panelized deck was set in place and the exterior waterproffing and footing drain system would be then started. It would not be uncommon to see 20 houses in a row with the decks on and an osha approved ramp leading up to the deck over the "moat".
The framing crews would not be called in till the site was completely ready. All concrete would be poured, inside and out. The framers would frame the downstairs walls and then the crane would be called back to set the panelized second floor deck. The framers would then frame the walls and roof. I don't know if the framer's assisted in setting of the deck, but I doubt it.
It was my understanding that this sytem failed and was being discontinued in Michigan. I'm surprised to see that it was being expanded. The big cost is that huge crane that sits idle so much of the time.
blue
What's your opinion on the decks being made in 8 foot sections without woven plywood joints?
Mart, single plate construction on non-bearing walls isn't anything new, or peculiar to the big nationals. I didn't frame a house with doubled top plates upstairs for the first ten years of my career. The studs were shipped precut at 941/4" and we got a load on every house. The last house we framed like that was about 6 years ago.
Your concern for tieing in the walls in the house is basically a moot point. There really aren't any structural reason for tieing them. Indeed, in most commercial building, they leave the last stud loose so the drywall can be slipped behind the studs. I've yet to see a collapsed commercial building because some 2' closet wall wasn't top-plate lapped.
Actually lapping the top plate on interior non-bearing walls significantly weakens the structure. By cutting out the top plate on the bearing wall, you are effective reducing the structural strength of the top plate to a single member. I find it ironic that when we install our doubled top plate, we are required to keep the joint a minimum of 4' from an adjoining joint, but they allow the same joint to be located anywhere near a cut out top plate or a plumbing pipe cutout. Go figure! I'd love an inspector to explain that to me, but of course, they cant, but they can cite the book for why it's wrong for our joints to be closer than 4'!
blue
You are right, Blue, about the non-issue of doubled top plates on interior walls.
As far as the plate tie where interior walls tee to exteriors, what do you think about the use of a 3x5 Simpson tie plate?
View ImageThe panelizing I see here is done with exterior walls having top plates shipped loose, not applied in the factory. The erection crews nail them on to tie corners, etc.
I think if I was specifying a job, I would want the interior walls single-plated at tops, made same height as exterior walls double plated, and we would use these ties at wall intersects.
We have no inspection here.
Stinger, we use those plates to meet code on all bearing wall intersections. The bearing wall intersections are basically all the outside walls. Our state code requires four nails in each wall. That's what we give them. We now install those even if we have a well lapped/nailed backing plate because the inspectors can't figure out that the backing plate actually ties the walls together as well or better than a doubled top plate. I find that to be quite amusing. Inspectors always find a way to prove to me that they really don't understand what they're looking for.
I wouldn't suggest using a single plate unless you have lots of great linial. Single top plate construction is slightly harder to get and keep straight. Doubled top plates have a way of maintaining straightness more consistently.
I wouldn't use those plates at interior non bearing wall intersections even if they are intersecting the outside wall bearing walls. I know the lapped backing plate is more than enough to keep the wall from falling down!
blue
So you are NOT in favor of doing interior walls with single top plates? And if you are doing doubled top plates, you are breaking the top plates of exterior walls they intersect so the interior top plate can lap and tie?
I favor doubled top plates on the interior partitions, but we don't lap them onto the exterior walls. There's really no reason for doing this because there's no forces trying to rip them down. Additionally, we lap the drywall backer which effectively does the same thing as a lapped plate would.
blue
Blue,
It's been a while and maybe Boss will correct me on this if I'm wrong. In the 70's My dad was the number one framng contractor for a company called Bay Homes in Tampa, Fla. Bay homes later was bought/absorbed by Pulte Homes.
Anyway, all of our roofs were Truss and all of our Interior walls were single top plate. As it was explained to me at the time, the way those trusses were designed, the interior walls could not touch the bottom cord of the truss (the trusses couldn't bear on any interior walls) unless the truss had a tag identifying a specific load bearing point. SOmething about they were designed to bear on the outer walls only unless they had that red tag attached that identified a bearing point.
We were told if they did bear on a wall they stood a chance of breaking.
Later on when My dad sold his business and moved back to New Jersey we were surprised when the crews framing for the company he worked for were spiking the bottom cords to every interior partition. He pulled out the engineering specs and installation instructions and pointed a few things out. He suggested that if the Inspector insisted on double top plates they could maybe us 5/4 thereby buying themselves a 1/4" gap betwee interior walls and truss bottom cords. He was told he was wrong and to leave it alone.
That winter one condo unit had half it's trusses fail, under a moderate snow load. The truss company came out, pointed out the Engineering specs and installation instructions and said "Sorry, warranty void, see where it says bearing only on identified locations".
Your description of production framing makes me think I'd rather work in an auto plant, since you never get rained on inside.
I rarely handle trusses but I always see guys spike them down to the interior walls. I think it's mostly a way of keeping those walls plumb, and then there's truss uplift, which no one seems to understand.
David,
I love to frame, hate production framing. Problem is that in some areas the Production builders are squeezing out the real builders at an alarming rate.
The good framing jobs are still around but harder and harder to find in some areas.
Nothing beats looking up at a roof ful of bastard hips and true valleys that you figured out and framed with real rafters.
I've always been a remodeler, there's nothing production about it. It would take me 6 days to do what Toll wanted done in 6 minutes. Where's the enjoyment in that?
Nothing beats looking up at a roof ful of bastard hips and true valleys that you figured out and framed with real rafters.
EVERYTHING beats a rooffull of bastard hips and true valleys that are framed with real rafters!
blue
I run across the guys from panelized operations sometimes, and talk to other folks in the sawmill or truss industry looking at setting up. What I hear consistently is that they are moving more into panelized because the builders are asking for it....the builders are asking for it because they can no longer find enough people that want to frame year around in a Canadian winter. Period. Lots of work, not enough people.
Quality is always going to vary from company to company....I see some operations I would never consider buying from, and I know one company that I think has excellent designs and excellent quality.
I've also seen panelized lines being demonstarted in Germany, and I believe the potential for excellent quality is definitely there....these lines were using robot nailers, CNC chainsaws cutting out the sheathing around doors and windows.....they were also dovetailing in headers and things like that....very different than our ways, but I was impressed.
Bottom line, I see panelized construction becoming the norm for standard designs, and only the true customs will be built the old way. Not saying that's good, or bad, but I don't see anything happening to indicate it will happen otherwise.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
David, the trusses don't even flinch when they start their uplifting if they're nailed down. In the spring the trusses just come back down and the nails are left proud. It's no big deal really.
Production framing can be fun in a different way. It's simply a different challenge. I'd rather saw my arm off than do tedious remodeling projects.
blue
Sheeit, man, enough's enough. My opinion--you're consistently among the loudest and most arrogant posters on this board. The self-proclaimed expert on all things framing. Post after post in which others are doing stupid stuff or are clueless. The inspectors don't know jack. The guys framing on the lot next door are slower than we are. I'd never do it that way, this way is much superior. Blah blah blah. You contribute plenty of good info to this board but so do a helluva lot of other people. Get yourself some humble! Robert obviously enjoys the framing he describes, and I definitely don't want to frame subdivisions. To each his own. Control your urge to push the reply button so much.
Good gracious David, I sure pushed your hot button. All I did was relate my real world experiences regarding my love for production framing. I was just pointing out that some people are better suited for different things. I love the challenge of shaving seconds off of jobs, and you obviously love doing tedious remodeling. There's a place in this world for each of us.
I can't imagine that nailing down trusses has you upset. But if it does, so be it. It doesn't hurt them because if it did, there would be 6 million houses in the Metro Detroit area that needed repairs!
I will proclaim my expertise in framing however without shame. I do so becuase that's been my life since the 70's. I've seen and done it all in residential framing. I've tried every technique known to man and consciously selected and tried to improve each and every technique that is done on a residential custom or production frame. I'm sorry if those facts bug you.
Right now, I really wouldn't say the guys next door are slower since there aren't any framing. I have competed against a multitude of framers and I don't often get upstaged when comparing total hours on similar jobs. Again, I don't apologize for that. It's just a fact. I started my career with skilled carpenters that took pride in their work and took more pride in their times and that's the mentality that I was endoctrinated with. After I went on my own and was able to develop my tehniques, I simply became one of the faster crews in the framing business. The only guy that I've ever known that was faster with a crew was an ex-partner that basically did things very similar to me. We traded a ton of speed secrets and as a result, both of us got better.
The other thing that makes our crew faster is that we competently analyze all the components and eliminate those that don't have a real need. Again, this might upset some of you guys that prefer to overbuild everything, but that's okay, I'm not buying your framing lumber. If I'm the builder, I'm only going to allow the things put into my houses that I deem necessary, not what some "overbuilder" thinks is necessary. I have my standards and the highest standard that I observe is to not be wasteful. I am totally focused on using as little resources as possible while building a sturdy, strong built to or beyond code house.
I suppose I could just clam up and not share my experiences, but then again we could ask that of everyone, including you. That probably wouldn't make this site very fun now, would it.
Now, check you oatmeal before you taste it. If somebody peed in it, don't blame me.
blue
Edited 11/20/2005 6:04 pm ET by blueeyeddevil
The problem I see with single top plating and the panelized interior walls is that they don't get tied to the exterior walls. Although the interior walls are non-load bearing the tie in to the exterior walls does provide some lateral stability for the long exterior ones. I'm guessing that you won't't agree with me though.
Re production framing you are right about it presenting different challenges. For example, as you insinuate, it demands the utmost in efficiency - both in terms of time and material usage, whereas on a one-off custom home the trash pile is always going to be larger and the labor bill is going to be significantly higher just based on the # of hours the carpenters spend on site.
The problem I see with single top plating and the panelized interior walls is that they don't get tied to the exterior walls. Although the interior walls are non-load bearing the tie in to the exterior walls does provide some lateral stability for the long exterior ones. I'm guessing that you won't't agree with me though.
Mark, I agree and I also disagree. Let me explain.
Tieing interior partitions to the exterior walls doesn't rate that high on my list of priorities. After all, there really aren't any forces trying to strip them away. Even if the top plates aren't lapped, that doesn't mean we don't try to do a good job of toenailing them together. Typically I put a minimum of four toenails and try to make sure I have a good looking tight joint. But let's not minimize the drywall backer's holding power. We typically put a 2x6 full length on top of the partition. When I face nail through the 2x6 into the exterior wall, it has the same or better holding power that the lapped top plate would have. I get get up to 6 or seven well spaced nails through a 2x6 backer plate, but only up to 5 in the doubled 2x4 top plate. Who's system really is stronger? When you consider how weak you are creating your exterior wall, I think you'd have to agree that my style is faster and stronger. I'm willing to bet a load of milkbones and I'm willing to set up a simply physical test to prove it.
Now, the second part of your reasoning is where I agree with you. You are looking for some lateral stability that a partition might offer in the case of long straight bearing walls. I totally agree that something should be added but I still don't think lappiing the second top plate is the answer. We routinely add a metal t-brace on interior partitions, then lap the backing 2x6 on top. The only thing stronger would be sheathing the entire interior wall with plywood, which in most cases would be overkill, but we've done that too depending on circumstances.
Adding the braces to interior partitions is something that I've always done to build stronger houses. We routinely create extra lateral bracing support on top of trusses to tie in gable walls too. I bury permanent braces inside attics to add stability when it makes sense. I'm always on the lookout for adding structural members that will actually add value, or make the house more rigid. Most of these items are fifteen second add ons, but the important skill is thinking about them and knowing when they will be helpful. Quite frankly, lapping top plates doesn't add anything and it actually reduces the strength of the walls that we are trying to strengthen.
If you can't understand what I'm writing, I'll draw a picture.
I also agree with your take on production framing. The guys in here like to portray every production framer as some slob that doesn't have a clue to what constitutes good carpentry practices, but the best carpenter that I've ever met runs the top crew over at Pulte around here. I can pretty much guarantee that when he's done with a rough, you'll not find one violation in ten houses. He is very conscientious and tends to do all the technical carpentry and important joinery. He never takes a day off and always starts early and leaves late. He stays organized and keeps his small crew working most efficently. I learned a lot from him after I had 15 years in the trade!
blue
You make good points...
Re the backing 2x6 (drywall nailer), of course that is only on walls that are parallel to the roof trusses or floor system above. Like you say though, the whole thing is not a big deal. All in all, I think it is an OK way to build - you just have to have access to the longer studs for the interior walls.
Re what you say about the metal T braces, (I assume you mean the flat T shaped straps) I haven't heard of that, but I will say that I'm impressed.
The thing I did not mention about these few Centex houses I looked at was that one or 2 exterior corner top/cap plates were not lapped on each house. I was not impressed.
Mark, yes, I am talking about simpson "T braces" http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/WB-WBC-TWB-CWB-RCWB.html specifically TB10. We use these liberally on interior partitions to stiffen long walls and other odd situations.
You correctly identified that walls that aren't parallel with the trusses might not have a solid backer to take the place of the lapped top plate. Lets explore that idea.
Most of the houses I frame today come with hipped roofs. On these roofs, the truss companys create a hipset package that reverses the jacks on the side walls. The jacks usually have a run of about 6'. Therefore, almost every interior partition receives a very solid backer, usually of 2x6 material. If for some reason they don't, we simply put the simpson 3x5 plate on. Before those plates became common, we used to used flattened out joist angles which we get from our steel supply company.
The other scenario is gable ends. In most cases, the gable end itself has a drywall backer applied. It hangs over and we nail through it into the intersecting partition. It provides a very strong connection but if it were subjected to some sort of seismic forces, I think the drywall backer would split apart, unless we used a very wide one, which isn't usualy the case. To compensate for this highly unlikely, but possible scenario, we install a bracing system on top of the truss chords, which exceeds the truss engineering requirements. It basically consists of diagonal 1x6 material (or 2x4 linial) which runs diagonally from midpoints of the gable to the exterior bearing walls. This internal tie system certainly adds considerably more holding and bracing power than a simple lapped interior partition. Additionally, it should be noted that the doubled top plates of the gable are NOT COMPROMISED.
Centex might possibly use a drywall clip system and therefore do not want the extra backer material installed, thus the open corners. They again most likely have a detailed engineered spec sheet somewhere which requires tie plates or some other method and the odd corners that you are seeing are simply mistakes by the framers. It wouldn't surprise me though if they will be attended to before insulation or drywall. Most of the big nationals around here do a fairly competent walkthrough inspection before they let it get covered up. They actually invest a fair amount into reducing the likelihood of service calls. They take those numbers seriously around here. I've only done a few things for Pulte, but I quickly found out that I couldn't leave a single nail out and expect it to get past their white hats with clipboards. They have a much more extensive checkoff sheet than any custom builder that I've ever worked for.
blue
That's interesting....
Actually I was thinking of a different T brace, and the ones you are referring to make more sense for this application. We don't see the let-in diagonal T-bracing used too much more here in the SE, but in the past they were very popular but were more often used in conjunction with non-structural sheathing on exterior walls. sounds like you are doing good work... good for you...
BTW - have you seen this new therma-ply sheathing [email protected]?
Mark, thermo ply sheathing has been around since I was a rookie back in the 70's. Do they have a new version or are you just telling me it's junk?
blue
Hummm.... maybe it has just caught on here in the SE - I see the national builders using it. As far as my opinion on the subject - let me see - frame a house, cover it in cardboard and vinyl siding. Hope the big bad wolf doesn't stop by!!!
Mark, I wouldn't be opposed to using thermoply on my home but we have osb at the present time. It's much stronger than foam, which is a common sheathing and it works well under brick or up in gables. The issues regarding burglury are true, but it's usually much easier to simply use a pry bar to open a door, I think most doors will open faster with a pry bar than with a key!
I'm not a burglar, but if I was, I'd use my pry bar to get into the attached garage, then use it again on the service door, if it was locked. At that point I could cut through the drywall, but the door sounds much easier.
blue
Blue, I am trying to understand you about the interior partitions as they tee into exterior walls, and about the use of the Simpson parts. I am working with a couple panelizers on a job for a custom plan.
First of all, we've a plan where the longest run of interior wall is under 14 feet. Do you advocate single plating all these, and then using 2x6s on top as drywall backing?
I understand how you get ties to the top plate of exterior walls with the 2x6 backing, no matter which direction we've got trusses. Do I have it right that the backing is extended out over the exterior wall top plate to get nailing?
It is unclear to me how the Simpson TWB10 is used to stiffen interior partition walls. The typical use for this is as let-in diagonal bracing, with a sawcut providing the "letting in." How are you using these?
Actually no Stinger, I really don't advocate using single plate construction, but I don't see anything wrong with it either. I prefer to double the interior top plates too for rigidity reasons. It's faster to straighten and hold doubled plated walls.
Straightening exterior bearing walls is significantly faster if you don't cut up the double top plate too. There's another good reason why I don't lap plates onto it.
Yes, I extend the drywall backing (2x6) onto the exterior walls. That's what gives us our most solid connection.
It is unclear to me how the Simpson TWB10 is used to stiffen interior partition walls. The typical use for this is as let-in diagonal bracing, with a sawcut providing the "letting in." How are you using these?
The t braces don't stiffen the interior partitions. Instead, they act as a brace to hold the exterior wall in it's plumb position. Thus, they actually stiffen the exterior walls-they do the same thing at intermediate points that they would if used on the corners of the exterior walls. When you combine them with lapped backer plate, it provides an extremely stable connection and stiffens the outside wall assembly. Quite often, in walls that contain too much glass, these braces are one of the most important stabilizing factors in the back wall construction.
blue
Gotcha, Blue. Lemme see if I have it right.
Doubled top plates for interior walls. Run the plates full length of wall, and don't cut for intersects. Lap for corners is OK.
Let the 2x6 ceiling backing do the job of tying walls at tees and corners.
Let in the Simpson tee brace on diags from plate to plate on interior walls where they tee into exterior walls, as a means of providing bracing for the exterior walls at those intersects.
The panelizers say they ship top plates loose for application by erector in field, thus the ties can be made. If I could specify top plating method per your recommendations, I would spec all top plates applied, except for exterior wall corners, where I would have a 5-footer shipped loose to make the tie. Sound OK?
With that spec, we would only have to fool with the plating at corners. We would be doing 2x6 ceiling backing most everywhere, and the 2x6 backing would be doing the tie work at all interior tees and corners, plus the ties where interior walls tee into exterior.
I really like your idea of using the Simpson tee braces as you describe. Thanks for that one.
Actually Stinger, for various reasons, we don't lap the corners. Remember, every corner will have some sort of backing lap and we also always put on a simpson tie plate.
I'm not a big fan of 5' tie plates or whatever. Invariably, a 5' tie plate sets up a chain reaction regarding plate joint laps the complicate the process (remember, we can't have a joint in the top plate within 4' of another joint). The 5' tie plate simply puts another weak spot in the wall.
If you are getting walls panelized, you'd be better off just shipping the wall with the plates extended. Since I panelize onsite, I could do the same, but in the interests of uniformity, I rarely cut back plates, or lap them. Plese understand that we don't live in any type of seismic zone and the only force that is going to tear these corners apart will be an excavtor in a 100 years or so, when they are tearing the place down to build a new one. The backing lap and simpson tie plate are far more than enough to hold the corner from spreading.
blue
Don't knock those Mexican folks until you know more about things.
I worked for Therma-Tru, you know, the door company. Therma-Tru ships more door glass than anybody. By that I mean all the plastic-framed door lites, both clear and decorative, you see in insulated steel and fiberglass doors.
As long ago as 1985, Therma-Tru had moved most all its glass manufacturing to a site in Matamoros, just south of the Rio Grande, near Brownsville, TX. The plant, which now employs probably approaching 3,000 people, is in a large industrial park project on the outskirts of the town of about half a million population.
Guess what Therma-Tru's neighbors are making in that industrial park? Probably a lot of what you own and drive. Grip your steering wheel? Mexico. Your shift lever? Mexico. Turn on that car or truck in-dash CD player? Mexico.
Therma-Tru's Matamoros plant workers, probably two-thirds women, dressed for work each day in better looking outfits than its stateside plant workers ever wore, even for weddings and funerals.
Living in south Texas, we see a lot of mexican workers.
What you're saying about the Mexican ThermaTru employees is correct, and that can be applied to just about any set of workers, even the Chinese. We (me especially) like to bash the Chinese products as no good, but it's noit the fault of the workers. In many cases, they are receiving an above average wage and much better working conditions than other local industries. They take pride in their work, and they try to do their best.
The fault lies with the corporation, especially the Americann company that pute their name on the product. Gotta make it for a few cents less. cut the quality to as little as possible so we can show Wall Street that we're good managers. The employees are just building what is selling.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Blue,
I Live not too far from the Home of Toll Brothers and they are building projects all around our area.
I get a kick out of your line about the "business" of framing being on a downhill slide. In a lot of areas the "business" of new construction is on a down hill slide.
Yesterday my cousin was down from Mass. to vist my dad in the hospital. He and I talked for a while about the trades in general and what he was up to lately. The numbers he was giving me for things like Framing or re-roofs would be unthinkable here. He was talking about $10 a SqFt to frame something that you would be lucky to score $3.50 for here. His numbers for a rip-off and re-roof were more than double what you could get in my area. His Labor cost were not significantly more than they would be in our area but his Comp rate was a little higher. I'm convinced that the downhill slide of the business is not nationwide but rather localized. But when it is localized, what a mess.
Anyway, Back to the Toll Brothers thing. In our area if you want to Frame for Toll Brothers you have to be in possesion of a rough terrain lift and have a crew large enough to complete the entire rame to include windows, sheething and subfacia in 6 working days. Doesn't matter if it's 2500sqft or 5500sqft. Six days.
You can bid interior trim for them and about a half dozen other area builders. One stipulation. NO matter how big, you have one day to trim the whole house to include stair rails, cabinets, vanities closets and anything else they can think to squeeze in that package. It used to be a struggle to bid against one local trim contractor who would hang and case a door for $25. Now he's slow because the new going rate is $20 a door.
The story is the same in almost all the trades. " How much more can we pack into their bag and how quickly can we get them to do it." A few local yards are selling things " Installed". The Lumber salesman comes out, measures the job, finds a trimmer, schedules it, checks up on it and makes sure it's complete and then hands the builder one bill for everything. Problem is it puts one more hand in the till on every aspect of the job between the builder and the guy actually doing the work.
One of the side effects of all this is that anyone with any skill at all is trying to squeeze into the high end market. Builders who had one or two guys to choose from that they were sure could do the harder things now have a dozen to choose from who "Might" be able to those things.
Thankfully I have a skill set that will enable me to stay busy no matter what but I see an ugly future coming our way before thigns get sorted out.
AS to why panalization? I look at it this way. Americans want more for less and have lost sight of what real value or worth is.
Look at Porsche. Primarily to satisfy the U.S. market they have gone from basically a two model line company (the entry level 944/968 and then the Boxster and the 911 series cars) to a four and soon five model line company (the entry level Boxster, the Caymen, an SUV and the 911 Series cars and the upcoming four door) It's taken a long time to do so and they have remained true to the companies original principals.
Mercedes Benz on the other hand, has gone from a company with maybe four model lines to one with damn near as many model varients as Ford or Chevy in an effort to capture a bigger share of the U.S. Market. And in the mean time, the overall satisfaction rating has sunk below that of Hyundai. But ya know what? With all the electrical and mechanical problems as of late, I can drive four miles from here to Wegmans and the parking lot will be chock full of C series sedans. They're as plentiful as Hyundai Accents at a college campus.
Style over substance and no idea of value and worth. And that doesn't even address the long term economic effects of all this nonsense.
That 6-day timeframe for a Toll Bros enclosure. May we presume you are talking about the erection of a fully-panelized package?
SIx days is for a floor truss deck for first and second floors. Panalized walls first and second floor and a truss roof.
You still have to put on mud sills, set/build up a girder/ layout the floor trusses just like regular 2X10's, deck it with plywood, set the first floor wall panels, build the second floor deck, set the second floor panels, set trusses, do all the over framing for gables and valleys and sheeth. NOt mention, all the drop ceilings and blocking out as well as setting windows and such.
I know a few guys who make money at it but none of their crews speak english and you can bet you'll be able to find them working next Thursday as well as Xmas day, New Years day, Easter Sunday.............I could go on but you get the point.
Watch a good framing crew at work, and you are seeing jobsite panelization taking place. The really efficient guys I've seen are able to kit out almost a whole house frame, before anything gets raised.
Listen to framers here say how they are snapping lines while their cut-n-spike guys are making up every single header and corner for the house. Look at the pictures they provide, proudly showing how much of the walls outer accoutrements (rake, fascia, gable boxes, etc.) are built on the ground before going up in the air.
Listen to the roof cutters here say how they can cut and stack all the parts for a really complex roof, even while the crew is still snapping lines on the main deck. All these are just other versions of pre-engineering, which has to happen on a larger total system scale before a plant can start cutting and building panel, wall, and truss components.
Precut studs? Of course the framers like them and use them. If the name of the game was "let's make absolutely every cut that's needed right here on site so we can spend more time and therefore make more money," those framers would disdain precuts. But tell them the walls are all 97-1/8" high, and the studs all need to be cut to 92-5/8" because the yards are all out of precuts, and they'll moan every time.
What is so elegant about building all those walls on site, when you can just pick them off a sequence-loaded truck with a crane and set them in place?
An erection-and-assembly crew needs a different set of skills than those required to scratch-build, but that set of skills is indeed a complex package. Are ironworkers dummies because all they do is hang factory-made components?
BTW, have you seen what they build in Mexico? Been to Mexico City, the largest city in the western hemisphere? Where they had built stone and timber and glass cathedrals when New York still had pigs grazing on Broadway?
Robert, I'm trying to remember where you're from. I'm trying to guage the framing numbers to see how they relate to our market.
blue
There are have been several threads about panelized walls over the years.
Here's on where I gave my take on them:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=55398.4
And here are some pretty old ones:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=13949.1
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=16837.1
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=61512.1
Yes but no one can compete with Canada on lumber.
You are figuring in Mexicans either . The GC was figguring his same crew. Dont do that.
Tim
Not everyone has mexican labor to compete with. If they do, there's likely mexican labor in the truss/panel shops also.And not everyone is close enough to Canada to have to deal with the issues brought up by the tarriffs. Every situation is different. I never meant to imply that what worked here would work everywhere. I just gave my background and experience.
My mom said the only reason men are alive is for lawn care and vehicle maintenance. [Tim Allen]
I would guess that panelization will "trickle down" when some of the truss shops get set up to accept computerized plans from from indies and small operators and efficiently produce "one-off" pieces.
Not rocket science, but it does require computerized plans, and the shops that can handle them.
Also a few code hurdles, probably, but that could actually be a plus for small operators (who can program local code issues into their design software) since the biggies are building cookie-cutter homes that are designed to meet the code of one or two states only.
happy?
Can't coment on the economics directly.
Our local HfH chapter is panelizing in a shop to beat the weather. Volunteers usually don't show up if it rains, is very cold, etc.
We can precut all of the headers, cripples, etc in a 6 hour day for a 4 bedroom duplex ( 2 - 2 story, 4 bedroom homes; roughly 970 pieces, but many are repetitive, i.e; need 54 - 26" cripples - set a stop and GO! I usually asign one person to do nothing but count as they come off the saw). You need a logical cut list, one guy who knows what he's is doing running the radial arm saw and about six volunteers moving, labeling and stacking. Waste is practically nil with a good cut list in the right order - takes a while to develop the list, waste wood blocks from a duplex will easily fit in a 55 gal drum. Saw turns on at 8:45, off at 10:00, on at 10:15, off at noon, on at 12:30, off when done - about 2:45 pm.
Two guys can cut and mark all of the plates in another day.
Four man crew with 2 nail guns can assemble and stack all of the panels in another day. Exterior wall panels are racked, sheathed and Tyveked on the deck at the site. Top plate doublers are applied after erection, lining and bracing.
Flooring systems are site built using traditional methods (stick, TJI or floor truss depending on the model), roofs are trusses and conventional decking.
The only potential hang up is a bad foundation, must be adjusted to fit your panels at the 1st floor mudsills - good foundation and they go up nicely.
My personal work as a remodeler is much slower.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.