I have to write this from a homeowner’s point of view:
A few weeks ago I hired a local concrete contractor to form and pour a small slab for me, for a shed. He runs a good business but was doing this job for labor only, and “off the clock” as we were going to barter for his labor (I have a sawmill and he needed lumber). So, he decided to do the job on a Saturday. Showed up Friday night to form the slab and lay the wire, and was planning on calling in the five yard of ready-mix on Saturday. Normally I’d be right there with him, I have done concrete flatwork before, but I had a prior commitment to be elsewhere that day (which is mostly why I hired him).
So I get back to the house around noon, there’s a wrecker sitting in the driveway hooked to an empty mixer truck with chains all over it hooked to the truck that was full of MY concrete. Apparently the driver figured he could get close enough to the slab to pour it straight from the short chute and got himself off my driveway and stuck, so the concrete company (NOT the guy I hired) decided to ‘borrow” my tractor and shuffle the concrete out of the mixer and into the forms. I decide to take over driving the tractor, since I didn’t want some dude I din’t know flipping it over on me. So we get it done. It takes the wrecker and the second empty mixer and a bunch of guys standing around to get the stuck mixer off my property. The ready-mix operations manager, who I already thought was a royal prique, got in my face and told me he was gonna send me the wrecker bill. He sort-of apologized and said that he would have gotten a loader from the plant over to pull it out, but that he couldn’t do that for some reason and he had to call the wrecker. Said he had all these guys from the plant there to help, and the second mixer, and I wouldn’t be charged for that, but somebody’s gotta pay for the wrecker. And by the way, it’s a Saturday, it’s a super-heavy-duty truck wrecker, and there’s a minimum charge…
Now, I showed up well after the fiasco has started. Stand around with my hands in my pockets watching this all happen. The driver got stuck before I got there. I wasn’t driving the truck, I didn’t have any control over the mixer getting stuck, I didn’t call the wrecker, I was just the dumb and happy bystander homeowner…..
….who, a week ago, got a bill for over five hundred bucks from the ready-mix company for the wrecker bill. Believe me, I would have been just fine with letting that piece of
mixer and the retard driver sit in my driveway until it rotted.&
#160;
So, do I pay it or not, and why?
Replies
Yes pay the bill, after they pay your tractor rental fee.
Well....You are the guy responsible for coming up with a way to get the concrete from the truck to the slab area. Obviously you didn't have a plan.
So the concrete company sends out a truck load of expensive concrete and finds that they can't drive to the slab site and there is one guy there with no other way to get the concrete placed??
It sounds like your contractor friend was not on top of the situation either. So what did you expect the concrete driver to do?? He could have driven back to the plant and used your concrete to make little post footings or retaining wall blocks and still sent you the bill.
Sounds to me like you are partly responsible for the "fiasco" Judge Judy would tear you up one side and down the other.
I think you owe them something for sure.
On new construction, it's not uncommon to have to pay the wrecker bill if a truck gets stuck on your job.
In this case?
Could the driver have hit the pour with all his chutes?
If so you don't owe him a dime. Let the concrete company eat it.
If not? It's a toss up. The guy doing the pour should have had an alternate plan.
Here where I live, my concrete co. makes me sign a waiver stateing that I am responsible for the truck after it leaves the road. I make the H.O. sign that it is alright to drive on the concrete drive (if there is one) in case it cracks the drive..
But; it sounds like this would not have been a problem if things would have been handled a little different by everyone.
Tough call.... not being there I'm not sure what I would do. In the end I'm guessing your prab'ly gonna get stuck with this.
dug
Sure, the gut doing the concrete work should have been better prepared. But who was driving the truck and who got it stuck? Sorry I don't give out that kind of pass. If you think you are going to get stuck, don't drive there. Keep the truck unstuck and have a pissing contest over the five yards later. Backing off someone's driveway is not the same as backing up into a new construction work site.
If everything is as you said I wouldn't pay for the wrecker.
You mentioned that he tried to do it with the short chute, if that's so and he could have done it with the extensions then wtf are they thinking!
Doug
On this one you and I can lock arms and marchtogether instead of locking horns. IF the facts are as presented, the driver was too lazyazz to usee all his chute extensions, wanted to dump quick and begone for beer
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You should have kept on driving.
Hahahahahaha NO!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
While there may be many points of view and some of them valid, they got it stuck before you got there ... they should have tried the long chute. They tried to cut corners. The guy in charge of the pour should have assessed the situation ... and possibly controlled it. He should have told them to drag out extra chutes. Ultimately, if the delivery driver wants to be lazy and gets himself into a pickle because of it, that is his business ... You actually helped out ... it was his call, unfortunately ... and he has to eat the tow charge ... stuff happens ... and because it does, don't make it not his fault. If I have an accident, it's an accident ... I'm still liable. Just because it was an accident, doesn't mean I'm not responsible. My neighbor did that to me once ... spilled oil in my driveway ... thought since it was an accident ... he wasn't responsible. Yeah, right ... things happen, that is life and we often have to take responsiblity. DON'T PAY THE BILL.
I forgot to answer "why not". I was laughing to hard thinking of the bill.
First this guy is in front of you: "A few weeks ago I hired a local concrete contractor to form and pour a small slab for me,". He's the conductor of this orchestra. He was there forming. He was there ordering. He was there receiving. He was there prepared to receive it. He probably had several laborers lined up with good old fashioned wheelbarrows.
But...the concrete driver, bless his soul, wanted to speed things up and had a better idea. Unfortunatly, the "better idea" wasn't so good. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
The ironic thing is that they miraculously discovered a way to get the concrete into the hole AFTER THEY WERE STUCK! Imagine that...get the pig stuck and the brains start cooking!
Those guys sure are quick to spend your money aren't they?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't know what post the guys read that think you should pay....
other than being the home owner you in no way should pay.... it wasn't your gig...
now the dude that you contracted with it very well could be on him depends what happened before you got there... for all you know "thats how they do it everytime" ur not "that guy" yeah they want someone else to pay.... but it wouldn't be me unless i told the driver "yeah pull it over there" even then i'm not sure it'd be your deal... the driver has to know where his truck will and won't go... he's the "expert" in this situation... and you didn't release him from being so... ie: "i don't care what you think pull it over there i know it will hold"
on an off note... i know a guy who used his cell phone insurance to pay for a tow.... seems it's an added little bonus thats in his contract... who knows why.... anyway it covers anything he's drive'n... the readymix guy let him back the truck where he wanted it... it got stuck... he called to get towed on his coverage... and they paid... same guy use to go out drink'n and call a wrecker (on his auto clubs bill) to take him and his car home from the bar.
p
The details of this operation are sketchy but here's how I see the situation unfolding.
Five yards of concrete is a fair amount to unload quickly with a wheel barrow especially if you don't have enough help on site, which I'm assuming is the case here.
The concrete truck driver takes a look at this situation and says " Oh s**t, not again, another Saturday morning dumb a** do it yourselfer mess" I've seen this happen a hundred times.
So, he tries to make the best of a bad situation. Most trucks only have four chutes and they might extend out 15 or so feet and this guy has to get concrete over an area big enough to use up 5 yards of concrete.
He backs up and gets stuck. It happens all the time. Poor planning on the part of the homeowner who I'm sure talked this over beforehand with his contractor buddy.
I still see them as being at least partly responsible for the mess. If I ask a truck to go in to a questionable place, I have a bulldozer or front end loader there to help him out.
I don't see where the driver had too many choices!
"Poor planning on the part of the homeowner"
"I don't see where the driver had too many choices!"Why blame the homeowner? He hired a CONTRACTOR. Part of the job of the contractor is to handle all the deliveries. The driver had a choice: just say no. He could have told the guy to start wheeling. The guy would have miraculously thought..."hmmm....since i'm only one guy with one wheelbarrow, maybe I better come up with plan "B"." After a minutes thought, he'd see the tractor and call and ask permission to use it. The blame lies fully on the truck driver here. He was probably trying to get home early for his weekend beer. We had a truck driver who came in a rainstorm to deliver rooftop shingles on a steeply sloped muddy grade. The supplier was warned not to come if it was raining because they couldn't get in to do the rooftop delivery. Frank was there and warned him not to try it. The driver, who knows it all, went for it. Instantly he was sliding full tilt down the slippery, muddy grade heading right for the house to slam into it. He luckily managed to steer the rig off to the other side and down the bank, spilling all the bundle and landing against the tree. Drivers are like that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Who would have been responsible if the driver had refused to back up closer to the slab and would have had to return to the plant with a 5 yards of worthless concrete?
I agree that the concrete sub should have anticipated this problem and had wheelbarrows and laborers to bring in the concrete, but in this case the OP was hiring labor only, presumably to keep the costs down. He got the labor if not the brains. Who's fault is that?
Another poster made a comment about people taking responsibility and followed that up with instruction not to pay the bill. Is that what taking responsibility is all about?
I don't see this as a simple fix. A compromise is in order. The OP can pay part of the wrecker bill with a note to the concrete company explaining his point of view. He can also give the concrete sub a little less lumber than originally planned. Everybody gets a little pain because everybody could have done a better job.
That may have been my comment about responsibility. No offense intended ... just a point of view. Sometimes it is our responsibility to make sure someone takes the responsibility that is rightfully theirs and they seem to refuse to take it. It may be noble to say ... I'll pay that cost, but by doing so, you may enable others to act irresponsibly ... which in my opinion is not what we should generally ever do.
If the guy was in fact too lazy to drag more chutes out ... then the driver is an idiot who should pay for the towing out of his own pocket ... rather than the company he works for.
I don't mind sharing in responsibility and making compromises when the situation is not clear cut. And this sitauation may not be as clear as us readers may or may not see it ... only the OP knows the little details here, so ultimately he will make his best judgement given the multitude of facts that we in the peanut gallery cannot be aware of. But, generally, the way he painted the pic for us ... the driver seems to have made some bad choices and now wants the owner to pay for them.
Would we see a different pic if the driver posted this question about the HO not paying a bill he sent him? Don't know.
When pouring the footings for my house one of the drivers drove off the side of the driveway onto the soft shoulder and layed the truck over into the trees.It took a crane and emptying the concrete in the ditch he made half way up the side of my driveway.
The owner comes out and tells me how I will have to pay for concrete and crane.I told him I understand except the next three trucks manage to get up my driveway with the truck halfway in the driveway.
He turns around and starts giving the driver the third degree and then tells me I won't have to pay for the crane but will I buy the crete and I say hell yeah I won't ever have to worry about that side of the driveway washing out.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
You're a nice guy.
BTW, this forum is way more entertaining than TV.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
the driver have to do what the super says, within safety. if somebody told him to back up. he has to, but he accepting responsibility. But it really takes alot to get one stuck. well at least you would know before backing up. But then we deal with sand. I have stuck many of them, and had to pay for the wrecker.
Drivers here have the authority to say where they will go and where they won't. If a driver tips one over, he is likely out of a job.So it is a good idea for the contractor to have things ready
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So what about this one? I have a propane tank on property. Propane company goes bust, so I find a new one. The old guys take away their tank when I'm not there one day. (Or it magically disappears, there's no damage to the property anyway and it's gone). The new guys come in to put theirs down. They have a crane truck, but the crane won't reach the site. The driver says, he'll just back the truck off the driveway until the crane can reach. It's down a hill and I know the ground is soft. I say, "I wouldn't do that if I were you." He says, no prob, ma'am, I can do it. So he does. Gets stuck. Stays there all day. First tow can't get him out. 2nd, huge-a-mite tow truck gets him out. I don't play the tow bill, but I tell them I won't bill them for the landscaping either, since he tore the heck out of the driveway garden -- trees, azeleas etc. No one was happy in the end, but I didn't pay... Fair or not?
zone 6 gardening in the woods with 30,000 deer
I see your point. I guess the difference was that you were there and said " I wouldn't do that if I were you."
The buck stopped with you. I allways make it a point to be there. Even if I have to re-schedule I do.
Where was the buck supposed to stop on this pour?
Personally, the concrete guy wouldn't get any wood from me. Would that even things up?
Not fair at all - his insurance should have paid for your landscaping repairs
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This is exactly why I will only work with owner/operators if I have the choice. My concrete delivery guy has done some crazy things to get the truck closer and he would never send me the bill if he did something stupid and got stuck(which he never has). He would hand me a shovel and ask for help, but never point a finger and send me a bogus bill.
There is no way that I would pay it. That is ridiculous.
I have wheeled 5 yards many times and it's not too bad although it helps to give the supplier a heads up.
This is absolutely NOT your problem. Tell them where they can stick the bill.
Don't you think the contractor and the homeowner discussed this job before Saturday morning??
Like...Are you going to be here by yourself??? Do you need more help wheeling or can the truck drive in there??? One guy trying to wheel and place and finish 5 yards of concrete is nearly impossible. Remember, this is a deal cooked up to save the homeowner money!
If you're not going to wheel it, how are we going to get the truck back to the slab area?? If we can't do either, what are we going to do??
I would bet that the plan was to back the truck up to the area and the one guy would unload and finish.
If we have a tough site, we specify the all-wheel drive trucks instead of the old rear unloaders. All the concrete company knows is that they have to deliver you 5 yards of the right mix and whoever is in charge at the site is responsible for getting the mix poured unless you have given them other instructions.
What do you think would have happened here if the driver had said...I'm not even going to try and back in there and you are going to get stuck for the concrete bill?? Like I said before, the driver was between a rock and a hard place. If he had gone back to the plant and billed this guy for a wasted load, there is no doubt in my mind that this homeowner never would have paid the bill and the concrete company would be sucking up the cost.
Been on both sides of this issue many times!
Okay, I had to go back and read the OP when you mentioned that this is labor only. The thing I'm seeing is he hired a contractor. I was assuming the contractor ordered and paid for the concrete. So now, let me rethink this. He did hire a contractor...not a laborer. The contractor was "off the clock", which means nothing because in contract law, there is no such thing. Once the "contractor" accepts the job, all the responsibilities come with it. The contractor knew he was going to be pouring five yards and there's no mention of what kind of help. He might be alone, he might have help. It's a dinky little 20 x 20 pad so the most help he would need is one guy. Those two guys could easily wheel it. Isn't a wheelbarrow 1/4 yard? That means they each have to wheel ten barrows. Whoopdeedoopdee. So, the driver gets there and doesn't want to sit there an extra hour while they wheel. He probably walked onto the grass and assured the contractor that "I'll be alright". He doesn't have any signed waivers from the homeowner to go on the drive or lawn. He gets stuck. All right...I'm done thinking...THE DRIVER PAYS...OR HIS BOSS.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well, there are a lot of assumptions here. I notice the OP hasn't resurfaced to defend himself.
I can tell you that Saturday mornings are hell for most concrete truck drivers because every dummy who wants to do his own work is ordering concrete. In this case, the contractor who is there may be the dummy.
Yeah, what happened to ole' JonE anyway?! He took all our comments, advice, and rantings and ran away!
He buggered off!
Yeah, he skaukered..
Come back and take what's comin to you!!
Poor planning on the part of the homeownerThe OP I read here said tht he had a pro managing that part of things for him.
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As I said, the "contractor" may be the dummy here, although I still think this was all discussed between the contractor and the homeowner long before the concrete truck arrived.
The concrete company is responsible for getting the mix to the site. Whoever is in charge on site is reponsible for getting it placed.
The boss on site tells the truck where to go and as Brownbagg said, unless it's dangerous or really stupid, the truck driver will usually try to do what they want him to do.
Until the OP shows up with details, everyone, including me is guessing what really happened.
I don't think the concrete company would blame the homeowner for this mess if it was his driver that was responsible. That's why I suspect the homeowner or his agent, the contractor, was responsible in some way.
I'm here, been here all along, reading everyone's replies, and I thank you all for your comments. Just to let you know, I'm no rookie, maybe now I'm a weekend warrior, but I've poured and finished concrete myself, including a lot of commercial work 12-15 years ago and my own ICF foundation and basement slab. I wheelbarrowed 18 yards of slab crete all by myself. I didn't want to do it again. This one bit me and I wanted some advice from the rest of you.
I hired a concrete contractor, a specialist, who has done hundreds if not thousands of jobs in his career. Doesn't matter how I paid him. He told me this would not be a problem and I believed him. He showed up alone. I asked him when I showed up later at the site about wheelbarrows and he said "I'm glad you left the keys in the tractor or I'd have been screwed". He forgot his wheelbarrow. There was actually a short driveway installed that would have let the mixer truck get right up to the slab and dump that load, but he was forty feet away from the slab when he got stuck. These guys don't carry squat for chutes anymore because they figure with the all-wheel -drive front discharge mixers, they can get right up close to a job. It was very poor maneuvering on the part of the driver, and he got a wheel off the edge of the drive and wedged the mixer barrel up against a utility pole. If the pole wasn't there, he probably would have been fine. They actually had to pull the truck sideways off the pole and then he was able to drive out.
If I was there when the whole mess started, and I told the driver to do what he did and he got stuck, I 'd have paid the bill already and that would have been the end of it. That fact that I think some of the blame lies with my contractor (who is a friend of mine on top of this and I'm not willing to stick him with the bill) and the driver earns the rest, should have nothing to do with me. If I never showed up on site at all, and got home late that afternoon, the slab would have been poured and finished, my tractor bucket would have been washed out, and there would have been some ruts in the edge of the driveway and a scuff mark on the pole that I never would have seen. And a bill for the towing, which I would have tore someone a new bunghole for. I'm mad because the supervisor showed up and automatically assumed it was my fault (we've had our dealings before, none of them good) and he sent me the bill.
To add insult to injury, I had a nice little sugar maple next to the driveway that I wanted to save. I volunteered to cut it down to make it easier for them to get the truck out. What's a 3" caliper sugar maple worth from a landscaping company? I'd bet several hundred bucks.
"What's a 3" caliper sugar maple worth from a landscaping company? "It's obviously worth a little over $500 ! ;)
I think I'd be billing for tractor time and a new tree. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now that all the facts are on the table, I'm on your side. I could tell by the first and briefer version of the story, that the contractor didn't have any help and didn't have a wheelbarrow either.
Sounds like possibly two dummys on the job and you're not one of them.
It does sound like a typical Saturday morning job. I've seen a lot of part time drivers called in for the weekend deliverys and some of them are not too good.
Unless your buddy told the driver to drive in where he did, I don't see how the concrete company has a case. If the guy was told to drive in that area, then the issue becomes a little fuzzy.
800-1000 bucks
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You do exist. Yeah ... you were VERY generous offering to cut the tree. A 3" tree is worth a LOT if you went to buy it, deliver, and install it. We all make poor judgements here and there ... but we usually have to take responsibility for the outcome. They should have assessed the situation better ... there were two of them, it only took one to do that ... neither did ... and no disrespect to your friend ... stuff happens ... maybe he was busy thinking about other aspects of the pour ... although when the truck arrives usually all focus is on getting the truck into position.
concrete company not going to eat it, they are not going to lose money, the prices are tight now due to gas prices. the contractor not in business to give stuff away, he not going to lose money. That leave owner, he will pay the wrecker fee. Its all in price of doing business.the concrete company here will jack hammer a slab if they dont get paid. Happen every day.
"the concrete company here will jack hammer a slab if they dont get paid. Happen every day."In MI, the concrete company would have to replace the slab and probably more.Here in TX we'd get to shoot the thieves if they were trying to steal our concrete. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well, in this case, the concrete company did get paid, for the concrete. I had no problem writing the check for the concrete itself, on the spot. I'd like to see them try to come in and take my concrete, especially since I have a receipt marked "PAID" and a check copy.
What they'll probably do is root around in the nearby manure pit to find their lawyer and he'll file a lien on my property.
I think it is simply a matter of this: If the driver had been competent, would he have gotten stuck. If the answer is anything other than yes, it should be the responsibility of the concrete company to pay to have it pulled.If I had a 50' wide driveway, and a truck backed off the side, would I pay to have him towed? No. If I had a 8' driveway and he backed off the side, I'd probably pony up. Now if he had been able to stop at the end, and get some extra chutes to reach, tell the concrete company to write it in the books as driver education.Most of the time the truck drivers are hit or miss, I've had some who would pitch in and help more than some of our help, and some who wouldn't hardly add more water if you begged them to.
I've contracted about a hundred jobs which have required redi-mix deliveries, using about forty different companies. It's always been my understanding that the person/company who calls/pays for the concrete is responsible for any overtime fees or towing bills. It's usually written up in semi-legal language, somewhere on the bill.
So...if your name is on the bill, you pay. If that responsibility concerns you, make sure that someone else calls and pays for the concrete or...don't leave the site until the truck has come and gone.
On the other side of the coin, I've always had good cooperation from redi-mix companies when something went a little sour. I don't recall ever being charged for overtime, even though I've kept trucks waiting a few times. That's the result of getting previous deliveries off loaded in half the allotted time.
I've also made a point of preparing the terrain for deliveries and having a chain saw on hand for the occasional low branch.
The only time we had a truck stuck was due to the driver and the company. Smooth tires on a wet lawn with a slight slope. They decided to try it because they had another truck and driver unoccupied, that they could send to pull the first one out, if he got stuck.
So that's what they had to do.
Edited 7/22/2008 4:46 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Legitimately do they have any legal recourse on you if you don't pay? Did they file pre-lien on your property? Do they have any legal recourse? In all fairness it should be your contractor "friend" who should step up to the plate. He was the man in charge and if he were a person you were actually going to "pay" in $$ then I think the relationship and his culpability would be clearly defined. When a contractor is hired they assume the liability for the project, that is why licensed contractors carry liability insurance.
concrete drivers are laborers with drivers license, Ok now that that understand.
concrete delivers to curb line, once they get off the pavement its sombody else nickel.
if you hired a contractor to do a turn key job, it is his nickel. If you hired a contactor to help you then its yours nickel
it really who was controlling the trucks.
I would not pay or take it out of the concrete contractor money
The way I see it there is only 1 person who could have stopped this from happening.
The driver... and he didn't. I'm sure he didn't want to get stuck but he gained valuable on the job experience. His training should not be at your expense.
Lots of good opinions here. I'll add mine. I think blame should be shared between the contractor if he was at all responsible for calling some of the shots, and the driver, and as such the cost of the bill should be shared by them as well . . . but . . .
if the contractor is a real good friend of yours maybe it's not worth it to lose or strain that friendship. Also, will you ever need to order any more concrete from that company? Are they the only game in town? If so, it may be worth it in the grand cosmic scheme to pony up some of the dough.
No?
Also, was there any damage to the lawn/landscaping/driveway borders etc? Who will pay for that?
Edited 7/21/2008 7:15 pm ET by Schilke
If your concrete guy was not sure he could have got teh truck back to your slab where was his pump?
Out here most Redi- Mix companies will not cross an approach due to the liability.
The guy doing the pour is responsible for the wrecker.
But I like the idea of sending them a rental bill for your tractor.
ML
Who should pay (or even consider paying) depends on who called for the concrete (i.e. hire the concrete company and their driver)? You, as the GC or your Concrete Contractor?
If you called in the truck, you should have been there to see it through including supervising the labor and the concrete company's business is with you. Doesn't mean you should pay all of the bill, but you have responsibility that wasn't handled well.
IF your contractor called the truck, their business, including inadvertant wrecker fees, is with him. He should have recieved the bill and he should be responsible for whatever disposition he can negotiate with company he hired.