Back to my garage project. One issue I have is that the location of the garage to be built will be about 300 miles from my home and family. In order to put a roof on this I will have to import labor for a weekend to set the trusses. Or…………….
Can I safetly rafter a 24′ wide garage? I assume so but what are the pro’s and cons to that idea? I have done rafters in the past but always on small buildings. Any issues with this idea. I could do that alone. More slope? Bigger dimension? Info! I need info! DanT
Replies
If time is not a problem it is ok to rafter. Might need a structual ridge, wich would take several people to help with.
Most garages that small, we use 3 people to set the trusses. Less than an hour, up with ply in less than 3 hours. (including felt)
What's the problem? Assuming your ridge is perpendicular to that 24 foot width, rafter span is half that, and at 5/12 pitch, your rafter length ridge to wall is 13 feet, so you need 14 footers. Depth of the 2x would be whatever meets code for your area, conceivably 2x6, but 2x8 would be stronger, less deflection. If you have a structural ridge, what's the front to back span (garage depth)? More likely I would think you'd have an "attic floor" in the garage, with 2x8s meeting/overlapping over a built-up beam supported by one or two lally columns (padded with old carpeting to protect car doors). Then the ridge would be one size larger than the rafters, just a place to tie the rafter ends in. What am I missing here? Framing something like this has been done all over the place.
Edited 10/27/2009 10:44 am ET by RalphWicklund
Show off! Thanks. That gives me just the information I needed. Back to trusses and a lift! I had thought about some sort of lift but was uncertain if the leverage of the truss would tip it. Thanks buddy! DanT
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Edited 10/27/2009 8:20 pm ET by RalphWicklund
Thanks for the tips Ralph. Nice looking garage. Slab? Poured footers? Just curious. DanT
Just wanted to mention that a lot of lumberyards and truss places here stock 24' trusses. Since they're built by the hundreds they're inexpensive. They also vary in price from place to place, so it might be worth checking around.
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Good points Boss, Thanks! DanT
Dan,<!----><!----><!---->
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Here is a short photo essay of another method to install trusses on a similar building. The temp purlin bracing thru the center of the building is about a half inch below the plate line so it doesn’t inadvertently lift the truss in the center when stood.<!----><!---->
One thing not shown in the photos is that the truss that is pivoting has been nailed down prior to lifting. It is tacked in a similar fashion used to stand pre-sheathed/finished walls on a plywood deck. The nails keep the truss from moving when standing and they suck the truss down to the plate as the truss is rolled.<!----><!---->
The pics show two guys rolling the ‘Box’, but one man could have done it on this roof. Tacking the ends of the trusses make them much easier to lift.
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Edited 10/28/2009 7:23 am ET by MrJalapeno
Another great idea! I love this board. That idea really brings a train of thought on. I wonder why you couldnt nail two together on the ground and lift it in place with a lift like Ralph uses? Mmmmmmmmmmmm. Thanks! DanT
That is a slick technique! I assume that you do that only for the end two trusses and roll the others one at a time? It looks like the last 5 trusses are stacked together at the far end. Do you then tilt them up and lean them against the already-placed trusses and start working back from the other gable end?BruceT
BruceT
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Yes, it is a pretty slick trick. It beats bracing the gable truss alone as the starter.
Boxing the first two together increases the base from an inch and a half to 2’ 1-1/2” and the box stands up by itself. I’ll put up three or four, or five more, as usual and then plumb and brace them as required by the truss specs creating a solid unit to stand the rest up against. They really go up quick and the feeling of safety adds confidence and helps quicken the assembly pace too.
Pinning both ends of the truss in place before rolling them up makes lifting them easy and lining them up on the wall is also easier to do when they are laying down. (Less back and forth motion and you don’t need to be holding it up at the same time.)
I like to load trusses with a crane but I have never used the crane to stand them. I just get them up there and spread. The group at the end does go up as you guessed, there just isn’t enough room to spread them out on layout from end to end so they get stacked at one end until they can be spread.
I even use the centered temp purlin brace to do TJI floor joists on long spans. Once they are spread for rolling you can walk anywhere on them because they don’t sag in the center.
Mr. Jalp
"It beats bracing the gable truss alone as the starter."
Just for discussion.....When we set trusses by hand and had to brace that first anchor point, we would always ignore the gable and brace the first truss back to the wall. We'd then run the other trusses. After we ran a few trusses, we'd rebrace, working inside the trusses that were standing. That would allow us to remove the original temp braces and set the gable. The gable would then be laced to the bunch that were previously set. Shortened version of the above paragraph: set truss number 2....and come back later to set the gable.
We are gluttons for punishment. We always set the gable with an extreems angle on the brace. Of course we also had a person holding the brace so as to move as necessary.
"We are gluttons for punishment."I know....I've watched hundreds of carpenters swing in the gable first with the crane. Remember, where I was from, they were sheathed and heavy. Then, the crew would run braces down the inside, which of course would be in the way of the first truss or two. Hey...that's how I did it for the first few years of my carpentry career. When I got out on my own, I started re-thinking everything I was taught...and I mean EVERYTHING.
Actually Jim when on most houses we had a min of 6 sometimes as many as 10 guys. We had the personel to spare to fight the gable.
Jim,
(Just for discussion...)
I have framed many more cut roofs than trussed roofs. At least 90% cut.
Setting trusses on a two story box is kind of scary sometimes. I just don't like it. This little "box" idea can make the gable setting less scary.
If possible, (w/enough man power), I like to completely finish the gables, (sheath, cornice, etc...) before I set them. I have to be careful about rolling a heavy "sail" though, once we pivot past the center of gravity the "box" wants to take-off and if we aren't careful it could domino right off the end. I've never had it happen but I know it could. Having a guy catching the weight as it comes down or just tying a saftey rope to the ridge is helpful, especially if the roof is tall. This technique may not be the wisest choice in every instance but for small simple stuff it's the prefered method in my bag of tricks.
So, are you completely retired from framing or just in between?
Regards,
Mr Jalp
Actually, it's not really that hard to sheath and finish those gables. Before I bought my crane, I often finished them up on top of the walls similar to what you are doing. Building that "two truss" assembly wouldn't have been anything I would do though. There's a couple reasons: 1)the extra weight and the potential for the assembly to become a parallelogram would cause extra bracing concerns. 2) My way is simpler and safer. 3)I can't think of any advantage to adding those extra few blocks in between the trusses. 4)those blocks would inhibit the traffic flow once the assembly was standing. 5)one of my guys (not me) would stand on those blocks and fall through LOL. 6)the rigging of the upper truss would require several people. My method was simple. 1)I'd snap a red line on the top plate. In your situation, I'd snap it 1 1/2" from the outside of the wall. 2)I'd then attach some banding iron. 4" piece would be plenty. 3)I'd lay it over the red line and nail behind the line (to the inside of the house). 4)I'd then lay the truss down on top of the wall aligning it with the red line. 5)I'd bend the strap up and nail into the bottom of the gable truss.This setup will prevent the truss from sliding off when we raise it. I often had a box of masonry wall ties and used these as the banding straps. After that truss was anchored, I'd sheath it, put the siding on it and also the rakes and overhangs. Sometimes it would be heavy. Often it was heavy enough to require wall jacks. There are numerous ways to prevent it from going over too far. The simplest is manpower....but where do they stand? I'd typically put one or two guys on the deck with lumber attached and ask them to first help lift, and then hold back. Sometimes, it was too dangerous to rely on mankind. I'd then add at least one wall jack in a key spot that would both help us lift, then become the hold back. Sometimes, I would lay microlams or planks across the walls and mount my wall jacks up top. I hated wrestling long poles, so I'd create the base up in the air and then raise the walls with 8' wall jacks. The smaller wall jacks were often the perfect size to raise gables. An alternate method that I often used was to extend the sheathing down the wall. On a little gable like you are framing, the sheathing would be plenty strong to save the gable from toppling over.
I am completely retired from framing. I really haven't done much serious framing in five years or so anyway. I don't have any desire to frame because there really isn't enough money in it to risk my life. The guys here in Austin are framing for under $2 per sq ft (often) and we used to get 6 for the same effort. I am full time running a roofing business. I have 36 roofs booked that I'm lining up to build.
That's a great idea!
How did you come about doing it that way?
this one is a keeper
Thanks,
I can say that nobody ever showed that trick to me but I would suspect that like many other original ideas it is not completely unique to me. It was just one of those, "Lets try this and see how it works" ideas. And you're right, it was a keeper.
and you're welcome too,
Mr Jalp
Outstanding.A technique I've never seen before.
yur my hero....
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WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Two guys can set those trusses without a lift but 3 is better. I doubt one guy could do rafters either.
When the framers set the 27' trusses on my addition they temporarily nailed up a couple of 2x4s about 6' apart (3' off the centerline) on the end of the building to hold the gable end and built the rest off of that. They had lines scribed on everything before hand. They even had the short pieces if 2x4 they used to hold the spacing scribed at 24". ( |X| ) So it was just line them up and shoot the nails in.
It was real slick. They scribed the bottom chord of the trusses while they were still banded up. Just be sure they are straight in the banding.
Dan,
24' wide garage is nothing to rafter. The biggest concern you have is that your working by yourself. So, forget trusses. You can safely bail 2x10 ceiling joists up with double row of strong-back and lay plywood up there to walk on. I've framed a million 24' wide garages with 2x8 ceiling joists w/double row of strong-back.
You do not need a structural ridge for something this small since it's not a ctahedral ceiling. Is it? If not, no structural ridge.
By yourself, setting the ridge first is the easiest way and safest way. You can do it in 1 piece or two pieces. If you can lift the 24' ridbe by yourself, you just nail/plumb and brace the posts at each end to sit the ridge on at the correct height which I can give you or anyone esle can give you.
If you have to set the ridge in two piece no problem. Set a post in the center on top of a ceiling joist temporarily. Once you cut the rafters you can tack a nail at the top plumbcut and bend it over so that it folds over the ridge.You then nail the birdsmouth in tight to the outside plate and nail the ridge second.
If you have a two piece ridge you can nail the front and back gable, front and back rafter one in from the end of the ridge, two more in the front and back butting each other to keep the ridge straight.
By yourself is alot harder, but you can do it safely stick framing the roof.
Thanks for the info. I think I will use the lift and trusses but it is good to know the idea wasn't unpracticle. Thanks! DanT
Dan, I'm not trying to talk you out of using a lift, but I'll offer this: it's not really hard to set 24' low slope trusses alone, if they are all 2x4 construction....without a lift. They are a lot lighter than Ralph's. With that said, it's necessary to qualify that. If you aren't really comfortable working in the air, on trusses and plates, then it would be REALLY HARD. If you don't work a lot with large framing members, it will be moderately hard. The technique would be critical. If you go about it the "right" way, it will be just like a brisk walk in the park. You'll exert a little effort but enjoy the physical challenge and exercise. If you go about it the wrong way, it will be a brutal, frustrating struggle...dangerous and dang near impossible. With all that established, I'd probably opt for trusses if I was setting them myself. They would be easier than setting a conventional framed roof alone. I'm not saying that a conventional roof is hard, but I'm just saying I'd prefer the trusses. I'd figure about 15 minutes per truss working alone. Even with my weak spineless hearniated back and out of shape muscles, I know it wouldn't be that hard.Frammer mentioned 2x8 joists. Thats an expensive upgrade on a basic garage package. If I framed a 24' garage with rafters, I'd only put three 2x4 wall ties in it. The lack of "ceiling" to walk on would require me to temp install a walk plank to set the ridge and rafters. I'd rather set trusses than do that.
Are you building that up north there in MI? You probably could get a few MI guys to help you on truss day. They aren't working anyways LOL. Anyone out there offering some free truss day help?
It's at that place in Gladwin County. I can get my son and brother to come up for a weekend I am sure. But you know how that all goes. Get a rainy weekend and nothing gets done. Someones kid has an unexpected ball game and out the window it goes etc.
So I would just as soon figure how to do it alone and if someone can make it all the better. While much better, I am not physically as strong as I was before the accident deal a few years back and have arthritic shoulders. I can do the work and enjoy it I just have to plan the heavy portions better and do a little less at a time. I am planning on farming out the roof to the said Michigan folks lol. Thanks! DanT
Dan,Since you will have help you will have no problems setting trusses. Good Luck.Joe Carola
for a simple 24x24 garage, lets say an 8 foot ceiling, 6/12 pitch roof, one full-blooded carpenter should be able to frame this himself, without any help, trusses or not, assuming these are not storage trusses.
If you can get your truss supplier to drop the package on top of the walls it's not a big deal to set simple 24' trusses by yourself, although 1 helper would be faster.
Set up scaffolds full length or a catwalk, set the two ends first w/ strongbacks on the outside. Run a line along the ridge, drag out the trusses, cut some 22 3/8 blocking (24" oc minus the fastener plates) for along the ridge, then tip them each up and space them with the blocks nailing as you go, then go along the walls and nail everything off once it's up.
not the greatest idea if it's windy ;)
j
Hi Dan,
I see you're the same age as me...51 years young. You would have thought by now that your age would have knocked more sense into ya! Either that, or you're one tough son-of-a-gun.
Sure, Ralph showed and proved that one guy with a lift can raise and install trusses by himself, but why would you want to?
Think how many times you will be climbing up and down, walking from end to end to nail off each truss...plus handling extra 2x4s to nail off the trusses in position once they go up. Just nailing the trusses off on the end plates don't get it, as you well know.
In addition, how much will this lift cost you to rent for a day, and honestly, is that good money spent? It's more than likely it will take you one full day to raise and secure all your trusses...and that's about as far as you will get.
My garage was 36 ft long, 24 ft deep. I had had 3 guys help me, but as an earlier poster said, 3 guys total is more than adequate. Anyway, we raised the trusses, sheathed the entire roof, installesd the fascia boards, and shingled one whole side of the roof, and a little of the other side in about 8 hours total.
So, my point is, if you had 2 guys with a little experience help you, you should at the very least get the rafters up, the fascia boards up, and the roof sheathed. Deduct from the labor cost the cost of the lift that you would have had to rent, and you are probably only gonna shell out an amount comparable to if you had to rent that lift for 2 days instead of one...but look at what you gained...a lot more work accomplished, and more importantly....a lot less wear and tear on your body. And believe me, I know something about that.
All you need, is a guy at each end on the plates, and a guy in the middle with a 2X4 "fork" that he will use to rotate the truss up into postion and will hold that position until the other 2 nail it off at the plate and temporarily tie it off to the next truss with 2x4 strapping. All 3 of you will first pick up each truss and carry them inverted into the garage area. After stacking them, roll them up into position with the 2X4 "fork", nail off , and there you have it.
Plywood sheathing on a pitched roof is easier to handle , position and nail off with help. What you and 2 helpers could do in one day, will take you 3 or 4 days by yourself.
Davo
As I described through a couple of posts above the garage will be built about 300 miles from my home. Thus I don't know of any "good" helpers. I am in hopes of getting my son and brother to give me a weekend but both have families so I am uncertain if one or both will make it in the end.
So I opt to plan as though I am it. And although you are correct in your descriptions I do enjoy working alone and am not in a hurry particularly. This is not a budget job except in the areas I chose so the cost of a lift for a day is not that big of an expense in my opinion. Thanks for the pointers. DanT
Are you getting building supplies locally to the job?
May find a couple of strong backs for a one day job through the suppliers .
Life is Good
Us old guys need the exercise. Climbing a ladder, rather than walking the plates is safer for our pear shapes. Moving those ladders is good for the upper body. My garage has a 10' plate height - that's two more steps on each side plus the taller ladder in the middle to nail the spacer near the top of the trusses.Then you get to go around nailing off the hurricane clips to each truss and the HGA10's 3' o/c on the gables. Then you get to nail off the rafter lookouts for the gable overhang and the corresponding cats back into the framing. Then you get to climb again for the fascia. Bring a pipe clamp and a pipe wrench to help space and twist the rafter tails so they end up on the marks on the fascias. Then you get to climb again for the rat runs. How about X bracing at the gables? DO you have to do that?Look for a Sunbelt rental that's not open on the weekend. You will be able to pick up the lift Friday afternoon, bring it back Monday morning and be charged for only a one day rental. Mine was $72.60, including tax and insurance.That was a mono-pour. Two #5 bars in the bottom of the footing. Twenty inches total from the top of the form to the bottom of the trench. Minimum required depth below grade is 12".
Edited 10/28/2009 8:04 pm ET by RalphWicklund
I know one thing. I would not nail in very many hurricane straps before I rented or bought a positive placement gun. They were pretty cheap on Ebay when I got my Hitachi roofer and framer.
The guys who set my trusses and framed the hip had a PP gun. Pretty cool.
Ralph, Big kudos to you. That's simply awesome.
d T ,,,,,,,,,,Setting truss's with boom and sheeted gable end ,,,,,,,,nail drywall nailer on top of top double plate on gable end ,,,,,,,,space to have flush lower wall and gable.................nail 16ft plates to outside of lower wall extending up to height of common rafter of gable ......nail bottom cord from outside of building into drywall naileron inside......duplex nail plates from outside of gable.......just figured out it's easier to do it than tell about it .......I'will be right over to help :)
Slow down will ya? Okay, you have the gable sheathed. You nail the drwyall backer to the plate? Do you also put another 2x4 on the gable, above the drywall backer?
For what?
I don't know. I'm just trying to understand
jim.....blue........hey my friend.....I have the highest respect for teachers that can explain clearly not one of my strong points.
the drywall nailer that goes on the top double plate is held in from the outside 1 1/2in plus1/2inch for sheeting and nailed to the top double plate. the sheeted gable truss is then lifted onto the top double plate and pushed in to meet the the drywall nailer and nailed from the outside into the drywall nailer it aligns flush with the outside of the lower wall and when nailed gives a positive anchor. If you have nailed 2x4 plates to the lower wall extending up to the hieght of the set gable truss's common rafter you then can nail fromthe outside these braces into the gable truss as temporary braces that really hold more than you would think.
I'll try again if this is clear as mud no problem....be happy.
I have found it is easier to nail the drywall nailor to the truss, then sheathe it, then put the ladders and trim on. The drywall nailor give you something to pull on to get the truss in proper position. When nailed, it will support the truss almost by it self!
Dave
That cleared it up Nails. I agree that its not that easy to discuss techniques, especially in writing. There are lots of guys that can't even teach onsite LOL. My ex framing partner Forest was like that. He couldn't explain anything to anybody but he was the best framer I ever worked with. Your technique is certainly something I've done. It would have been a rare occurrence though because for the majority of gables, we always installed the drywall backer onto the gable first. Since our framing was normally flush on the outside, we'd be able to know that the outside was set properly by measuring the reveal on the inside. Im curious. Why did you set the nailer in 2". That would make the exterior of the sheathing flush with the wall framing. Your method of extending the brace up all the way to the rafter was something that I have done a few times too. In our early years, we always assembled the wall and gable together and we'd nail on the 2xs on the flat first. We called them "strongbacks". We normally "Teed" them for extra strength. I also "TeePeed" them sometimes. TeePees were very sturdy.
I never thought of tee pee.
I raftered my house working solo.
Simple gable, 34' by 46' footprint, 8/12, ridge board instead of beam.
Day 1 I built what would eventually be the 5' tall by 46' long attic knee walls. I pulled those inwards, under the ridge, so they were about 3-4' apart, cross-braced them, and used them as my scaffolding for setting the rafters to the ridge board. I then set about 1/3rd of the rafters.
Day 2 I finished the rafters and started sheathing.
Day 3 I finished the sheathing.
It was all hand nailing and me lugging the materials up to the roof by hand. So pneumatic nailing, better material staging, and a smaller structure to roof would improve the timeline considerably.
When done, I took apart my "scaffolding" and wrestled the two knee walls back out to where they belonged and nailed them off.
Thats my style too Mongo. I hate spending time on temp stuff.