My wife and I are looking at buying some land in upstate NY for a combination hunting camp and then second home. I am planning on purchasing a parcel large enough to hold a few structures (a man needs homes for his toys). My plan as it stands now is to have a camp cabin built that can serve as a hunting camp and then convert that to a cottage when we have the funds to build a main house in 5 years or so.
Most of the lots I have looked at are surveyed and perked, so I am trying to think through and budget for septic and well. I am assuming if we plan correctly we can have a septic system built that the cottage can use for several years and then the main house can tie in as well in the future, is this possible?
Can someone ballpark what I am looking at for septic expenses for install etc.? What about well digging, I know they charge by the depth most times around here, what about the pump assembly etc.? Am I taking huge cash or something more reasonable?
As usual, thanks in advance.
SJ
Replies
Don't know your conditions (groundwater depth, union labor rates) but for my part of the woods - Indiana -
Septic requires main tank, distribution box, and five 100' fingers if perc tests ok. Cost is probably $5000 installed. Aggregate for the finger system is the main material cost. Some municipalities require a dosing system, which is an extra concrete box and a pump that floods the fingers when the level hits a certain point instead of just continually trickling. That adds another $1500 or so.
Wells here are typically shallow, 80' deep or so. I was quoted $3000 on one in the past year. Risk involved obviously if they don't hit water and have to drill a second spot, so I've always been told to use a driller with extensive experience in a geographic area as opposed to the cheapest cost.
I don't see why you can't tie a future house into the septic system unless you have some code prohibiting it. I would have a stub installed with the septic tank and capped in the direction of the future house so you don't have to core drill it at a future date, and obviously make sure the minimum size by code for your system (which is typically what a contractor would install) will meet all the fixtures in your proposed house as well as the cabin.
remodeler
Thanks for the information. I was thinking in roughly the same ballpark. Now the problem becomes thinking about who to clear the land. I'm thinking a combination of DIY and professional to handle the larger parts, I want to be well away from the road, if that means 200yds deep into the woods then that is a ton of clearing to be done.
Most lots have already been perked and passed, so it looks like $8-10K for septic and water. Obviously if city water is available somewhere I would assume that would be a cheaper route to go vs. the well.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
Steve:
It's always been a dream of mine to have a little place in the woods. I used to spend a lot of time in Upsate NY. What part of the state are you looking in and what's the approximate per-acre cost?
I would think septic system costs are a very local thing depending on your site conditions, availabilty of qualified contractors, local material costs and state/local regulations. I've heard of systems around here in the Boston suburbs that cost $30K but those are in poorly-drained areas and require mounding and pumps. A gravity system with good drainage might be more like $10K. Remember the good old days when a cabin could have an outhouse?
Thanks!
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I subcontract a lot of clearing, probably 100-200 acres a year so a little familiar with it. Average prices here are about $6500/acre to meet my needs, which is root balls popped and ground and when all is said and done a big pile of chips on the ground.
Keep in mind roots typically extend to the drip line of the tree (outer ring of branches) so anything structural will need to be cleared to that point. i.e. your driveway and house pad will need clearing so that the dripline is outside of the structural area. Heavy equipment running across roots will kill the tree (usually just to the drip line). Changing the grade very much and exposing roots/filling over roots will kill the tree. Clearing is something I usually leave to subs because the efficiency they gain with using stump grinders / branch grinders / bobcats / excavators / pickers outweight what I can do by any means. Also don't think you'll get ahead felling the trees and having them clean up, most clearing subs charge more if the trees are down - think of throwing a box of toothpicks up and cleaning them up versus them being all stacked together.
One thing with clearing guys is part of their margin is selling the usable timber. You might get quotes for clearing with grinding and leaving marketable timber on the ground and sell it yourself. A lot of clearing guys I know don't spend much time on marketing the stuff and take a low price just to get moved onto the next job.
remodeler
City water is not always cheaper. Some municipalities have big fees for hooking up. Around here, you cannot start construction until the well is dug, passes the flow test and tested for bacteria/chemicals. Then you have to dig the septic and have it approved. After that, you can site the house and start on foundations. The well has to go wherever it has to go. The septic has to go where it percs and meets setbacks to the well. Whatever is left over is a possible house location. If you have a big lot, no problem. Likewise if the lot percs everywhere. With a minimum size lot, something that does not perc well, or setbacks for streams and such, it can be a complicated juggling act to get everything sited. Also, around here you need two septic field locations. One to use and another as a backup in case (when) the first field fails.
Steve, those plastic septic fields are pretty slick and DIY friendly too.
If you are looking at big costs for a field you might look at them.
Can't think of the name, but do a septic search and they'll turn up.
Joe H
Thanks guys for the info.
AL .....Sharon huh, Attleboro here, drive through Sharon every morning. We are looking at the lower Adirondack area near Lake George etc. Per Acre varies, if you want lake front it is pricey as it should be. Lake access is reasonable maybe $25-40K for 3-5 acres. I'm looking for something in the 5-20 acres size.
Based on the size parcel I'm looking at I think if it percs alright in several areas I'll be fine. I can throw a camp cabin up with a chemical toilet no problem prior to having all the soil issues ironed out if need be.
$6500/acre.......I assume that is per cleared acre roughly? Thanks for the ball park on that. It would be worth it to have that cleared by professionals as opposed to me doing a portion which would just kill time etc. This location is 4 hrs from home so it isn't something I can work on after work or something.
Is it possible to do a "tight-tank" for sewage?
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
Hi Steve. I used those plastic infiltration chambers when I built my cabin. They are very DIY friendly and require no gravel/stone. I think I paid a few hundred bucks for septic tank and ditch excavation for the chambers. About $500 to have a septic tank dropped in, and the chambers were about $1800. A days work to set the chambers and hook up piping. Then backfill. This was for a 3 bedroom design. The inspector said the county will allow 40% less drainfield length when using these chambers. (After I was done with the install, of course). I cant remember the name of the manufacturer, type "infiltration chambers" into Google. See the attached picture. jim
Edited 1/6/2004 2:20:59 PM ET by Jim Lovatt
Thanks Jim.......I will check that out. Sounds like short money comparitively speaking. What type of equipment did you require/rent etc. How deep are we talking for the tank and chamber?
I can pay to have the land cleared then possibly pay to have the septic dug and the tank delivered and dropped in. If I can handle the chambers and hookup we might be fine.
I think the first small camp style building may not even be on a foundation, maybe slab not sure yet, I can't imagine the hook up would be heavy lifting, right?
Thanks
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
To add to what CaseyR said, the Easy-lay snicker snicker :-) (I think that's how you spell it ) septic fields are popular here, especially within the last 5 years. It is the system that uses "Styrofoam peanuts" packing material for aggregate - well it is not really packing material, but that is what it looks like. It still uses the regular black corrugated pipe. They even sell them at the Blowes big box. The advantage is that you don't have to bring in loads of gravel to fill your trenches with, and the local municipality requires fewer feet of the Easy-lay, so overall installation fees are less. I'm still not totally sold on the concept, although I have had one in my own home for 4 years now with no problems. Our entire system was about $4k. One caveat is though, that you don't want to be driving heavy equipment across the Easy-lay field after it is complete, as it can crash. The thing is about septic is though, the type of system installed is highly variable, and, for example, one county away from where I live, and entirely different type of system is often necessary. You need to talk to locals in the area where you want to live to find out what is common there, plus, the county health department or whoever permits/inspects septic systems. BTW - where I live, septic systems are sized purely on the number of bedrooms for the house to be built, since I guess the number of bedrooms is going to be a good indicator of how many people will there.
To add to what Remodeler said about site clearing, I had a neighbor who, when he had his house built, had to do everything different; to clear the lot, he had a tree company come in and cut the trees down, and then grind the stumps. Well, the footer guy had a very hard time because of all the roots in the ground, and I can bet you that there are many root pockets under that house where the residual roots have since rotted away. So, IMO, lot clearing is NOT a DIY job, as the correct way to do it is to have a large track loader, track-hoe, etc, come in there, knock over the trees, so that as remodeler said the root balls "pop" out of the ground, and then dispose of them. Operating a large track loader is not really a DIY deal...
Matt
(edited for spelling)
Edited 1/7/2004 7:21:43 AM ET by DIRISHINME
Thanks again for all the good information. I like to have everything planned out to know what I'm getting into. Since this is going to be a several year process before a true "home" will be built there I think this helps a ton with scoping out the project.
The septic looks to be a semi DIY job, I have good experience with heavy carpentry (framing and trim) and finish work but the site prep I obviously am as green as they get. If I can figure about $3-5K for Septic if I can do some of it and get a local guy with a backhoe. Site clearing I'm figuring a 200yd driveway cleared about 20' wide and a homesite of 100'x150' that is about 27,000 sq ft, so we'll say roughly $4000 to clear the land. Well will run somewhere in the $2-4000 range from the sounds of it. So it sounds like I could have the homesite ready for foundation for $10-13K.
Slap a cottage style cabin of about 18'x28' on footers, no foundation for the camp cabin if possible. Figure 1 bath with shower and half loft for sleeping along with a wood stove. That should hold us for 4-8yrs if need be before we figure out what we want for a larger structure.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
Steve, You're not gonna be happy when all those costs double. You are picking best case numbers out of the air.
If you are basing your decision on whether to go ahead strictly on the finanaces you are going to be in trouble when the price doesn't fit your budget.
Are you planning to have any electricity? I don't see it as a budget item.
Joe H
I appreciate your point, however the labor rates in this area are very low and all I am doing is ball parking. These costs do not impact our decision to purchase land it just impacts the time table. If these costs go to $20k+ for site prep, so be it. I plan for contingencies in my plan as well.
I spoke with two crews this morning for clearing land. One will give me a crew of 3 for $1000-1200 per day and they estimate 2-3 days to clear the area we are talking about, of course the time is based on an average lot topography. The other crew was slightly cheaper.
The Septic was the one thing I was concerned about but it really isn't all that expensive if you have land for the field and it tests well. If this cost doubles I would be a little surpirsed. The well is the real wildcard as far as costs, that is truely a number pulled from thin air.
Electricity will be a generator for the camp and then land line (available at street) for the future home. I have that factored into the home building estimate not the site prep. I would be surprised if it was more than $4-7K. It all depends on how long a run have to make etc. I may just stick with a generator, it all depends.
Thanks
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Edited 1/7/2004 10:06:54 AM ET by Steve Joyce
There is another style of device for distributing the effluent in the septic field trenches that uses styrofoam pellets in bags around the discharge pipe. I have no idea of the cost or advantages of one style vs the other.
If you have low perc soil, you run into all sorts of additional costs, a friend in Vancouver, Washington had to build a sand mound for the septic field and pump the effluent into it. I think this situation is somewhat unusual, but you need to test your soil to know what you have before you can make any definite plans.
There are a number of septic resources on the Internet. Some of my favorites are:
http://www.diynet.com/diy/ho_log_cabins/article/0,2037,DIY_13947_2274517,00.html
http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/nsfc/nsfc_septicnews.htm
http://www.doh.state.fl.us/chdclay/Environmental/Sepsys.htm
http://www.co.tillamook.or.us/gov/comdev/sanitation/faq.htm
As mentioned previously, the well situation costs are highly variable. You need to figure out how deep the water level, the recovery rate (how many gallons/min you can pump), what your desired pumping rate is, etc. If the well is quite shallow a jet pump can be used, but submersible pumps are much more common these days on moderate to deep wells. The submersibles are far more efficient than the surface mounted jet pumps (for my 100 ft well with a static water level of 30', the submersible of the same horsepower would pump almost twice the gpm of a jet pump.) If your water needs aren't that great, you could get a submersible 1/2 horsepower pump for $225 - $300, a pressure tank for $300 or less (bladder type preferred, I believe), and the necessary wiring and pipe for another couple of hundred, probably. There are two types of pumps in the 1/2 to 1 hp submersibles - two wire and three wire. The three wire requires a separate controller and costs more money. I have a two wire and have yet to determine any advantage of the three wire in a typical house supply system.
I have a pumphouse for my pump and tank. This was built before submersible pumps were common. Now days, I see a lot of wells some distance from the house with just a cover over them and the supply line leading to the house where the pressure tank is kept.
Don't forget to have your water tested for various substances in addition to just the standard test for coliform bacteria. Some places recommend yearly testing to make sure things haven't changed.
There are a number of sites on the web that list pumps and give information on setting up a water supply system. You can get a general idea of prices from the following site (I know nothing about this company, just pulled it up to get an idea of current prices...):
http://www.pumpsandtanks.com/pumps_tanks.html
Of course, you can also get exotic and go with solar power and DC pumps. However, such setups are very expensive and generally have rather low gpm ratings. The least expensive (not cheap by any means, but less expensive than other types) are diaphragm pumps that need to have the diphragm replaced every year or so.
"Obviously if city water is available somewhere I would assume that would be a cheaper route to go vs. the well."
Previous poster also commented on this. Unless well water is terrible in your area, go with the well.
Where I am I have a 6" main in front of the house (put in 7 years after I built) and I'm still on the well.
Let's say $3K for the well. Here I'd have to fork out $3500 just for the frontage of the main, another $400 for the meter hookup, plus $30 a month for the water itself (King Co WA)
So, over 30 years, without factoring in inflation and interest, you save ($3.5k-$3K)+$400+30*12*$30-$300(lets say for pump repairs)-#360 (power to pump ) = $8640 savings (added in head, may be off) plus, you don't got no stinkin' chlorine.
It mainly depends on your area labor rate too. My septic tank lines, everything was $1200. My 85 foot was was $500, last year.
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"