Hello Everyone,
Got a question I have a new garage/workshop it was built with 2x10s joists spanning 23ft. with no support I know that is long it is solid blocked every 8 feet and has a 2 knee walls upstairs and 2x 12 roof. And advantech for the floor upstairs I have no bouce upstairs and will keep the load down for obvious reasons. I have no deflection at this time so my question is will I have problems down the road I know what the books call for but I am wondering if like so many other Government rules they are way over kill on span requirements. I have seen many homes built in the 60s and 70s with 2×8 roofs rafters and still standing up here in the northeast even with the snow loads. By the way the town has bought off on the building any information or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you all
Replies
Go here http://www.admoyer.com/builderslibrary/lib.spancharts.htm and tell us what you see on the part of the page labeled "ceiling joists."
So, you want us smarties to tell you the tables are all wrong, things are way overdesigned, and you'll be just fine, right?
I wouldn't put much up there beyond the dust motes that are there now.
You gonna gypboard the ceiling? You have already put some load on the ceiling joists with the Advantech. Putting some rock on the bottom side will just about max things out.
No Gene I was not looking for you "smarties" to tell me everything is alright I was looking for a little info because I heard this was a place to get info without a lot of crap but next time I will look else where
Thanx for nothing Gene
To everyone else thank you for the responses that were helpful oh and one other thing I forgot to mention my 2x's are 12" oc
I don't think Gene's post was much out of line. You gotta be a little thick skinned to hang around here. But it's still a great place to get info. Don't judge the entire site and everyone on it from one post.
You can never get ahead by getting even. [Japanese proverb]
Maybe I was a little thin skinned Boss but I really don't think I had an attitude in my initial letter like Piffin suggests. Anyway thanks for taking the time to write I am not a carpenter I am a mechanic who maintains the airplanes that guard the Northeast coast of the U.S. We were the guys 5 minutes behind the airliners that flew into the WTC on 9/11 because of beaucracy and missed connections. So I may not know alot about building but I do know a lot about how the Gov't works and have seen things first hand on how things can get skewed and just wondered if "maybe" that could be possible in the case of of span regulations.
Nice talking to Boss Thanx
Thanks for your service. Welcome to Breaktime.... stick around... I promise it will be worth your while and I'm sure we could all learn something from you.
FWIW, even though you somehow got off on the wrong foot, the guys who have responded to you are great guys.... especially Piffin. They've helped me out with my business (and life for that matter) more than you can imagine. It's a good place to hang out.... I hope you stick around.
Brian
Im sure you are right diesel I know I can learn alot from all you guys and Iam going to hang out for as long as you guys will have me. Thank you for the kind words about my job been doing it for about 27years. Both here and the dessert many times I wished I was back here building homes but everything happens for a reason I guess this is what I was mean't to do. Anyhow I am starting fresh, on the right foot now and look forward to hearing from all you guys even Piffin and Gene sorry guys we got off on the wrong foot
i had a remodel that featured 23' spans and 2 by 6 ceiling joists. to stiffen this system i put sixteen inch box beams in the bottom of the knee walls taking the load to the gable end walls . the rest of the knee wall was turned to an entertainment center, storage etc. three years out and everythings still A OK.
reno credo: reality is a sandwich i did not order.
Thank you juju for your input but I am not sure what you mean by securing the knee walls could you please expand on the modification. Too bad all the people on this site are more like yourself we are not all carpenters and the answer I got from Gene went right up my side.
Whatever you do, please don't put a hot tub up there.
Sincerely,
The Darwin Awards Committee
That kind of span is grossly undersized, even without storage upstairs.
I don't know why you are peeved at Gene. You came right on in with the first blow, blowing hard about how you already know that the design tables are wrong. ( BTW, those tables are devised by engineers in the wood sciences industries, not by govt. Once they are test proven they are then adopted by govt)
So you barge right in with an attitude and then act offended when a sincere professional says something you don't want to hear... How old are you any ways thirteen maybe? yeah, your 'tude is like a 13YO gurl when she hears that her outfit makes her look cheap.
If you have no deflection and no bounce ( which I doubt) it is because the joists were crowned up and the roof load via kneewalls is tightening things snug for now, the tension absorbing the vibrations, and the roof load straightening the floor. since the crown may have been a half inch, you now already have a half inch of deflection to get to straight. That is with no live load on it, and limited dead load.
You should expect deflection over time.
So when yu put the SR cieling on below, use strapping first. That way you will strengthen the system and the srtrapping will absorb some of the movement so there are fewer nail pops and seam cracks in the cieling.
Then, like Gene said, anything else you add in the room above, will increase the amt of deflection. A card table and folding chairs will dio ya better than a pull out sleeper sofa and a library full of books.
But if your 'tude with your wife is like it is with others who truy to help you, I suppose you'll be needing that sleeper sofa.
Good luck!
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piffin I did not come out blowing hard about the tables what i did was ask if you guys thought the tables were skued in any way thats what i was asking.
capetown,
I fixed one like this years ago by plywooding both sides of the knee walls. Use some kind of Simpson to tie the walls to the joist. Block all joints also.KK
kkearney thank you for the reply I will do just what you said this weekend thanx
KKearny has it right . the plywood goes on both sides of the kneewall
i would suggest using a construction adhesive between plywood and the studs of the
kneewall and a relatively tight nailing pattern.ie 3" apart on the shoe plate , that's
the bottom 2 by framing member of the kneewall , and 6" apart on the studs. i don't
typically take the plywood to the roof . usually 18"-24" landing it on solid blocking
between the studs using the same nailing pattern @ the blocking as the shoe plate.
PLEASE use 5/8" thick plywood minimum and i would consider 1/4" masonite glued
to the interior surface if a paintable finish line is desired . the masonite has
excellent resistance to this type of load sheetrock has none. What else?
don,t break the front and back joints on the same stud , if the studs are 3.5" wide
use no larger than an 8d nail, remember those strong ties at the wall,
maybe hire a pro...
Thank you juju and kkearney I will follow your advise
yeah, your 'tude is like a 13YO gurl when she hears that her outfit makes her look cheap.
look around... I think that is that they want....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've often wondered how much of an effect sheathing the bottom of the floor in a situation like this would have? Kind of turning the thing into one big box beam? I use a scaffold plank that's essentially 2x4 (clear)side rails sheathed top and bottom with 1/2 in. ply. The joints are blocked. It's 16 ft. long, and you could park a truck on it. Admittedly, I built it with significant camber, but that's only part of the equation.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Tonka truck, right?Just kidding. I did the same for my first set of pump jack staging. I wouldn't have used quite that bit of hyperbole in a thread already unbalanced by poor interpretations and gross exageratiions, but it was very good.A while back I posted several links to studies that I googled about the efficacy of strapping to take vibrations out of I-joist systems. My own "clinical" evidence is that it does stiffen a floor. I doubt it will do much for total strength against deflection, but it has to help, and when there is bounce or deflection, much of that stress hapens at the nails or screws holding the furring to the joist, rather than at the SR joints and screws,so I was avising him a way to avoid some of the problems he will likely see in the future.but -disclaimer time - there is no way I would advise planning that into the design process to be able to ignore time tested design load and span tables.You just put another issue to bed? We always see you here more after the printer's deadline has been met.
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OK, I went back to re-read your original post. Three times it took before I could see your grammatical construction making it a question. Tjhe way it appeared to me was that you already knew - in your own mind- that the govt was definitely requiring the use of tables that called for overdesigning things with no relationship to reality. Gene probably read the same suckye attitude in your wording, but even at that, his reply was very measured and ballanced. He started right off with factuall information in his link. If you read there, you see that your joists are spanning roughly 25% more distance than they should.Keep in mind that these tables are for allowing a certain amt of deflection. lumber does not suddenly and automatically fail and collapse when it is loaded or spanned beyond thsoe design tables. Since this is a garage/workshop, if you arewilling to accept a two inch sag in your floor/cieling, you can go ahead and store plenty of stuff up there and it probably won't fall down and hurt anybody, but it may effect your potential sales value someday.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I came to this site because I look for answers not to spin people up I thought my question was clear it was not mean't to come across as a sucky attitude and if it I really do apologize. It seemed like Gene thought I was looking for a simple answer when in actuality I was trying to find out if the standards that are setup are like "alot" of other government standards are.
As for your second paragraph that is alot of the information I was looking for, like deflection and failing I was told by my builder this would be fine and not to worry. I came here to get a few opinions from the people who do this for a living and if I came across wrong then I do apologize again.
Thank you all
dont worry about him, check some other- hell check any others by him
someone died and left him god- one of those if he aint done it twice- he knows somebody that did it three times and he figured out the last two times they were wrong
Thanks Hill-billie for the reply I have read my initial letter 10 times and do not see an attitude anywhere. I was ready to give up on this site but after reading your reply Im here for good, It's good to see someone has the stones to stand up and speak your mind. I have read a few of his responses and you are right he does seem to have an opinion on everything anyway thanx for taking the time to write and look forward to hearing from you in the future
not that I have any interest in getting involved in anyone else's p--sing match, which it appears has come to an end as all good p--ses do, but...people show up here from time to time and want to get an answer to a question as if the people here owe it to them. Since nobody is getting paid to be here, except maybe Andy Engel (and god knows they can't be paying him much), you've to ask nicely, you've got to frame your question clearly so that people know what you're talking about and you've got to show that it's worth the time to answer.
Nobody here owes anybody else anything. Whatever you get is a favor. And some of these guys, like Piffin, have enough to offer, and have done enough for others, that they can pretty much cop any attitude they want. Newcomers, however, have yet to earn some respect first. The best way is to show a little respect to those who came before. In other words, buy a round or two, then ask your question.
SHG
In the immortal words of Mike Smith, "Bite me"But I'll be glad to buy you a round or two anyways, Youngster.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm havin bud in a can what ya drinkin i'll get it.Hey how long before i become an oldster?Think my body has got there already.Know anything about 8 ball there oldster?
Make mine a Shipyard Ale. Or a Sam Adams if Pi let them run out of ShipyardWith my eyes, and co-ordination, my pool game is comedic, to say the least. Any sport that involves a moving ball is my weak spot.Blackjack?
Arm wrestling?probably a couple thousand posts to get old-timer status, but it looks like you are already on the way to recognition status with the impact your twelve posts have made so far. I wouldn't worry about it.So, what wood you do with this floor?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How bout we play blackjack till weve had enough sammys and buds then we will arm rassel
i have no answers to this floor that wouldnt take up the garage space without seein it first hand
i mean 23'on a 2x10 is a long ways dont care who's tapes measuring it
the man says its all blocked and no deflection right now i like the idea just a thought but maybe instead of sheet rock screw som 1/2 cdx to the bottoms to maybe help stiffen it up.
think what i would do if it was possible without screwin up the garage plan is pull midspan,run a small steel i beam with lolley jacks just for a first thought
Sure thing. Me too. Now, let me buy you a drink. Hillbillee can even sit in if he can set up past his bedtime.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Is the workshop above the garage? If so and you plan on any machinery, put a beam at midspan below. You can build a beam in place. You can order 24-0 2x10's, get three. You will need to add a post at each wall, best to cut the rock if it is rocked.You will have to notch the top of the beam to accomadate the wall plates.
mike