Hello Builders – Again,
I was not sure how to post back into the original message, so I started a new thread.
I am back, maybe sheepishly, but back. I was initially overwhelmed by the response to my “Will My Builder Resent Me?†question. One of you asked why it had taken me so long to join the Fine Homebuilding forum. I guess the answer to that question is two-fold. First, we are only now able to get serious about building a house, but secondly, this forum is populated by lots of you, people who actually build houses for a living, not by very many of me – those who have only dreamt about it; a point, which every one of you quickly established.
At first, I was thinking to quietly slink away and forget it, but then I changed my mind. Overall, I think there was a bit of misunderstanding, or lack of clarity, in what I wrote in my original question. It seems many of you envisioned an owner appearing daily on-site to straw boss all phases of the job. I would not tolerate that in my shop, and like most of you said, you would not tolerate it in yours. What I meant, but maybe did not make clear, is that I would like to specify all the materials that would be used in the house. The point, which seemed to trigger most of the discussion, had to do with the nailing schedules. I thought having everything specified right down to the nailing schedules, would make everyone’s job easier because you would not only know what materials were required, but also the quantities (plus or minus allowances for the inevitable changes and mistakes, etc). What I did not realize is that preparing specifications detailed enough to produce a nailing schedule would be regarded as treading on the capabilities and artistic skills of the builders, plus bogging down in issues concerning day-to-day management of the project. This is definitely not what I intend, therefore, I apologize to everyone for that.
However, I do want my builder to appreciate that for 15-years now, I have been planning and studying for this project. This is probably a one-time deal for me. To this end, I have acquired and studied most all the FHBs, Autocad 2004, the latest I-codes and NFPA codes, 100s of books, and even a subscription to Sweets. I was/am anxious to contribute in some way to this project and being a non-builder does not by definition mean I am not able to contribute. At the same time, this does not mean I am planning to straw boss the builders or work myself on the project, other than maybe some portions of the final landscaping.
I am still unclear about some aspects though. For example, is it an issue to specify that all trim joints around the doors and windows be mitered? If I had all you builders in an audience and I asked you to raise your hand if you use sealants in your work, I bet everyone in the audience would raise their hand. Then, if I asked you to raise your hand if you always use the correct backer rod with your sealants, how many hands would I see? I am sure a lot fewer hands would go up. So for example, if the specs required that the correct backer rod be used with each sealant, and furthermore, that Sealant-A be used for all exterior applications, would this be regarded as stepping on the toes of the builder? Worse yet, would a builder inflate his cost significantly for something as seemingly trivial as a sealant or mitered joint specification?
This whole thing should be a team effort geared toward producing the highest quality product (a house) within the confines of skill, budget, time, etc. I have a lot of skill in my work, and I want a builder with a lot of skill in his work too. And, I hope to have the kind of relationship with my builder in which he would have the professionalism and confidence to simply tell me he had tried Sealant-A, and for reasons x, y, and z he found that it did not work well. No problem, then lets choose a replacement and do it, but do not come and tell me Sealant-A is no good because you have not used it before, or it smells bad. That is not going to cut it. Similarly, if my builder asks why I specified Sealant-A, then I feel I had better provide answers that make sense to both of us. In addition, if he sees that I have specified something just plain wrong, I expect that he will tell me about it so it can be corrected. As one or two of you said, no one can know everything and I agree.
Anyway, a long-winded response, but I do thank all of you who responded. Even my wife jumped my case because I still do not understand why a lot of you said having everything specified would result in much higher cost. Material costs do not seem, to this amateur at least, to be the major expense in building a house. My wife could not provide me with a reasonable explanation either; she just kept saying of course it would be much more expensive. So builders – just exactly why will it cost so much more?
And, I did love some of your responses too, like,
Brownbagg, “Measure to 1/8 cut to 1/4†(I am a measure to 1/64 cut to 1/32 type myself – that is why I am not going to build my own house)
And, JoeH who described in detail preparing the garage foundation walls. (I would spend a month with my laser and water levels insuring that the forms were level to 1/16†only to watch in horror as the forms deformed a bit when the concrete truck driver jumped up on them to make sure everything was ready. That would haunt me to the end.)
And for Mr. Scientific American… I’ve got just the pill for you
For those of you who asked, we own a nice 6-acre lot just south of Denver, CO in a place called Keene Ranch. I have a 3-dimensional topographic scale-model of the lot at home. However, we now live in a place where the winter temperatures drop to an incredible low of 40 oF in winter. My wife thinks 40 oF is a North Pole temperature, so it is finally sinking in that Denver might be too cold for her. For this reason, we are making a final tour through the Willamette Valley in my home state of Oregon this July to look at property. By summer’s end, I hope to finalize the site to either Colorado, or Oregon.
Thanks again everyone,
Replies
Ok, look at any message...at the bottom is a blue "Reply" button...click on that and it open a new screen where you type your response. It automatically goes to the person on whose screen you clicked, but you can also change replyees (is that a word?) by clicking on the "To" at the top of the reply page. Don't worry about the details, just reply.
I think you are mistaken about the makeup of the Breaktime population. There are indeed lots of professional builders here, but there are also many, many non-builders just like you. We even have a lawyer or two and a building inspector, and they haven't been tarred & feathered...lately. It's a nice benefit to have someone who is a professional stained glass person, for example, because when they respond to a glass question we know they have experienced what theyt're saying. It takes a million details to build a house, and (except for Piffin) no one knows all of them. You quite probably have experience in some area that we could use.
I would not have a problem with you specifying many parts of the house, including stuff like mitered trim corners, urethane caulk with backer rod, three coats of Brand X paint on the walls, Baldwin locks with lifetime finish, #2 SYP framing not SPF, etc. But you go too far when you spec a nailing schedule, or what type of paint roller to use, or how many twists for the rebar tie wire, etc. Listen to your wife more...
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=43543.1
You would simply choose any post there or the last one and hit the reply button to saty in the same thread. I'm sure you will need that skill soon so you don't end up with ten or twenty new threads scatered around confusing everyone like another person did a couple of weeks ago.
I'm glad you came back in. you sound like the kind of client I love to work with. I respect your desires and you respect my experience. It sounds like you will soon learn in the process what lines not to cross. working together and communicating with a skiled builder you trust will be the key to success and happiness.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Glad to see you're mostly sane & with a wife to keep you tethered to the real world.
Your plan sounds do-able, but if you have the time you might enjoy the building of the garage act too.
The fussing getting the forms right is critical. Once it's out of square & level life's a bitch.
Denver would be a real block laying experience, what's the frost depth there?
Joe H
expansive soils are going to be a bigger problem than frost depth there ( probably 3-4 feet)
and that will be something that can't necessarily be speced ahead of time since they have to dig a hole to know what the underlying soils are.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
something that can't necessarily be speced ahead of time Don't forget that Mr Gerrah will have a 50 page soils report available...Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Hi Ed,
Well, since you mentioned it, knowing that Colorado suffers from expansive soils, I did have a little soil work done....
But, even worse, I bought F. H. Chen's Foundations on Expansive Soils, for something well over $100. I would not recommend it.
This is going to be some fun project, I think.
Thanks,
Arnie Lewis, AKA Gerrha
Arnie, my comment was somewhat in jest, in response to Piffins comment that the foundation couldn't be designed before hand, or whatever he said. I was pointing out that there are ways to solve that problem too. Actually, having soil tests done early on is a very smart move, but you probably would have done better to skip the book and spend the $100 on an engineer.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Specify nailing schedules? That's mostly in the code anyway. You're not a builder so there's little chance you can improve on what skilled builders do. Get your plans and specs together, include everything you want, and give those to a skilled builder... but don't overestimate your chances of spec'ing a house that's superior to what he would do anyway.
I don't build new houses -- too easy ;-) -- but I do manage any work that I sub out.
If you're "subbing out" a whole house to a builder, perhaps it would be best to specify the things that are important to you, like floorplan, framing details, insulation materials and techniques, finish trim, and the like. All that knowledge you've gained from years of reading books.
Some of this stuff is regularly specified by architects, so it's not so far out, but CAD details are going overboard -- unless you have an unusual cathedral ceiling, or unusual (decorative) exposed trusses, and get a structural engineer to sign off on the details.
Put it into a Request for Qualifications or Request for Proposal (not 100 pages), and track down some custom home builders to give it to. Finding one who's not busy for at least 18-24 months will be difficult -- and I'd wonder how good they are, if they're not.
Or hire an architect to turn your dreams into plans. They'll still be your plans.
Daily walkthroughs with the site supervisor aren't out of the question, but you'll both get tired of all the dumb questions, soon enough. After that, you can scurry home and look it up. :-)
And you're lucky if you get a site supervisor who likes to explain what he does; treat him like gold. On a jobsite, they usually have their heads down, pushing for completion, and don't like interruptions -- but some have learned that marketing is part of the job (or just like to talk).
I'd specify things like some materials sources, because I've seen a bundle of 2x4s turn into a usless pile of pulp as soon as the bands came off, and I wouldn't want Home Depot's house brand of water supply valves (made in China) -- I'd want at least a chance of finding standard washers, packing, etc. down the line (heh).
I won't say to "trust it all to the professionals, because they know what they're doing," because I've been around long enough to know better -- many learn enough of the what to get the license, but never really learn the why, then spend the rest of their careers getting irritated at the inspectors. But you're not likely to recognize a bad joint in copper pipe -- until you've seen a few of them leak because the pipe was cut too short and soldered in anyway. And you're not likely to look at plumbing or electrical and notice what's missing from the picture, or be able to inspect all of the roof flashing as it's installed. Not gonna happen.
If you want a nice house, build your own first, learn from all your mistakes, then correct them on the next house, again and again until you develop all the skills to do it right, or rely on a good custom builder, who'll work with you and your preferences. Just don't tell him what caulk to use.
Your post really is saying that you want a well built house.. OK you can't get it with paperwork, all that will provide is a easy referance for youir attorney.. You are planning to hire your attorney first aren't you? I mean the way you seem to be going about this there is no alternative but to wind up in court.. Frankly you need an education about the real world of building.. You know the old saw about a little bit of knowledge is a danfgerous thing.. Find a builder that you think you want to work with and ask him if you can spend time watching him build another house.. That does two things, gives you a conmfort level and a chance to watch carefully and learn when it's not your money/dream on the line. For information, I was exactly like you. in the end I choose to build my own house, you might consider that too since apparently you seem to have trust issues..
Did you guys miss the part where he said he looked forward to sitting down with the right builder to iron out the details in discussions?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"So builders – just exactly why will it cost so much more?"
It will cost more for three reasons.
1)The builder is not familiar with the product and/or technique. He may have to go outside of his normal suppliers and he may have to learn how to use a new product. These will both cost more than what he is used to.
2)A specification may be unnecessary in your particular situation.
3)The builder will increase his price in the face of the unknown. He will make the owner bear the risks of using and unfamiliar product/technique even if it doesn't end up costing any more.
This is not to say that you should never specify anything just because the builder hasn't done it before. I personally like the challenge of learning something new, but it may push up the cost for the above reasons. If you are getting a significantly better product, it is worth it. As long as you are willing to listen to your builder or the subs, you can make good decisions. If you ask a question on this forum, you will usually get a range of correct answers. Which is the best? You and your builder will have to decide.
Other reasons for it costing more;
if the specs written call for twelve nails 15 ga in each vertical piece of casing, it signals me that he will be looking over my shoulder counting. That makes a good man nervous enough to create mistakes that will need correction. Upcharge for it ahead of time
if I use guns that shoot 16 ga nails, I now have to retool to use the 15 to meet the specs. Cost is passed on.
if the shingles and underlayument chosen and speced are not available in my area, there will be a delay and a special freight charge. The customer has to foot that bill.
if every foundation in the area is done with re-inforced concrete in forms and the specs call for a block foundation, there will be a shortage of masons in the area and theywill be the high priced ones used to working brick veneer and fireplaces instead of block chuckers.
vice verse - if the predominant foundations in the area are always done with block and the spoecs call for poured, nobody but the commercial guys will have any forms and they won't be interested in my little job without a premium price.
my floor guy uses his own industrial strength poly for wood floors. if I spec a certain other finish, you can bet there is an upcharge.
and on and on and on....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're a scientist?!? Oh, gawd! I missed that the first time!
Of course your builder will resent you!
But a scientist isn't as bad as an engineer, and neither is as bad as a surgeon!
;-]
But all are better than a lawyer(s)...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
damn it! just got down this far...
get out of my mind!
where do the lawyers fit in on that one?
This is going to be a fairly lengthy response based on a "been there, done that, and have the scars to prove it" perspective. Hope some of it helps. My first suggestion may open me to a broadside from a lot of the builders here, but I recommend that your first step should be to find a good lawyer. You want one that really knows the building industry and how to write contracts that refer to codes and specs. For two reasons, (1) you don't want a contract that is so detailed that no conscientious builder will sign it, or that is going to price you out of your house; but (2) you need a contract that not only requires the builder to follow best industry practices and applicable codes, but also your specifications where there are things you want done differently, e.g., wiring according to a detailed wiring plan instead of just "NEC".
In my experiences, I have seen a few contracts from builders that give the client a fair shake, but in many cases when a builder hires an attorney to write a contract for him, the attorney naturally writes one that is weighed to the builder's advantage. If the builder has a standardized contract that he wants to use, make sure your attorney approves it before you sign.
While it may be insulting to some builders to have you follow them around & check on their work, they are, after all, working for you. The GC that built my current house never showed any sign that he might actually know the building codes. Fortunately, the framing sub did, and followed behind the GC filing in left out nails, etc. But the framing sub wasn't above taking a short cut either. He left the rafter gussets off at the ridge beam over a cathedral ceiling, then lied about it when challenged. I convinced the GC I was right, and the GC then had to pull the roofing off the entire length of the ridge to install the gussets.
Two more examples of "checking on the contractor" come from a more recent remodel with a very reputable builder. The contract clearly called for Type S mortar below grade (don't know if that's a code req'ment or not). The GC called the local block company & ordered block and mortar without specifying which type. They delivered type N and the masons starting laying the foundation with it until I stopped them. On that same remodel, the specs called for all of the gutters to be installed with hangers, not spikes. The GC forgot to tell the sub that. Fortunately, I was at home the day the sub showed up planning on using spikes all around the house.
Bottomline. I think your concerns are valid. It's not always a case of getting what you pay for. On the other hand, there are a lot of conscientious builders out there that will go beyond the call of duty to build you a quality house.
"I am still unclear about some aspects though. For example, is it an issue to specify ........."
Gerrha,
Despite the fact that this is for you and the GC, a one time deal, it really isn't, (any GOOD GC's reputation and referrals are on the line) as hopefully you chose one who has been in business for a good while, ( you are not just going to pick somebody out of the phone book on such a major purchase, right?).
I do not work in the building trades, through am a very serious DIY, and have hired GC's and other trades people along the way for projects beyond my abilities. I can tell you first hand, it is so important to find a GC you feel comfortable with, and REALLY understands your goals.
Nothing wrong with spec-ing certain things out, but finding the RIGHT CG is what it's all about. That means letting him know what is important to you , but also where you trust him to use his best judgement. That's what you're paying him for.
AND, if things start not going your way, you know what, you screwed up on step #1. I interviewed four GC's to have a garage built ~2 years ago (see pic). Never felt really bad about the first three (OK maybe one) , but when the guy who got the job came along, 5 minutes in I knew he was the right guy. BTW, he was the high bidder.
Jon
While it may be insulting to some builders to have you follow them around & check on their work, I would not have a problem with a HO walking the site every evening, with me or without me. But I would bristle up in about 10 minutes if he/she/or a buddy was watching us work every minute of the day.
but also your specifications where there are things you want done differently As was pointed out more than once in this thread, you (the HO) have to be very careful that you don't demand something that isn't correct. If it affects the performance of the house, or an element of the house (shingles for example) then the warranty may be void and all liability goes back to the specifier.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt