Will this get approved by the bldg dept?
we have a lead on a job in a newer multi-family condo complex. The building is 3 stories, and we are working on the 2nd floor. The homeowner wants a no-lip shower where they have a fiberglass unit now. We were thinking of putting in a Wedi pan in the 3′ x 5′ space, and also running the Wedi into the rest of the bath, up the walls a couple of inches, and then using a 3″ tile for base to make the whole bath a “shower pan” of sorts. Anyway, the floor is made of 3/4″ gypcrete over 3/4″ TG plywood. All that sits on top of 2×12 joists 16″ OC.
My understanding is that the plywood and gypcrete are part of the sound control and fire supression system between units.
Since the Wedi pan is just 1 1/2″ thick, we were thinking we could remove the gypcrete and plywood in the shower area, block on the sides of the joists, and then replace the plywood and gypcrete 1 1/2″ lower, to come out level with the tops of the joists.
I wonder if this is going to satisfy the building department when we go for our permit? If not, is there any way you can think of to get us some space to accomplish our goal?
Replies
They may not like the removal of the top 1-1/2" of 2x12 depending on why those are 2x12"s in the first place. Fire and sound can easily be retained. Only idea is maybe remove the gypcrete to gain a little, drain lowest point obviously, use mortar bed to begin from door opening to ramp up a little and than slope every thing to the shower drain. Use some sort of membrane in there. I don't the finer details of water proofing tile showers but to ramp and slope is all I can say.
Word of caution we did this for a hotel in the area, they had concrete floors so 2" was removed for the shower so less ramping was needed. Other than that, same thing whole bathroom was the shower base sort of, with a suspended curtain around the actual shower area that just dragged on the floor. Problem was every single guest complained about this set up, not one liked it. It wasn't the ramp and slope unevenness of the floor or water escaping the confined area. They just didn't like the set up, maybe something unnatural about not having real vessel of sort feel you step into. It was an existing functioning hotel so before the project was complete they scrapped it and went to putting in tubs and showers for the remaining rooms.
I think it's what you get used to. We remodeled our bath with "no lip shower" and it's really nice. The people we are working for will like it too. We aren't thinking of digging into the 2x12. We just want to remove the two layers of floor that sit on top of them. I was thinking of putting runners on either side of the joists with their tops an inch and a half down, and then adding backthe ply and gypcrete between the joists, so the top of the gypcrete is level with the tops of the joists. You'd see the wood between the gypcrete when you were done. If there's a fire and it starts burning the floor below, it's still gotta penetrate 1 1/2" of floor, or the 2x12. we just don't have the extra floor on TOP of the joists.
Edited 1/30/2009 3:59 pm ET by geoffhazel
Okay I see it better now. Keeping the 2x12's as is, fire treated blockers and replaced sub floor with topping of choice gypcrete or mortar with tile I'd think would retain fire rating. 5/8 board after all is 1hr. and 1" greenboard shaft wall is 2hr.
Don't know about struc. regs with blocking the sub floor but seems fine. We all know inspectors though.
Stroke his ego with a plan review and stamped drawings. Be sure he signs a letter of transmittal on revised prints.
Had an easy going state fire marshal on the last one came on site for courtesy in wall inspections involved every step and retired mid project. Ran into problems proving to the new hot shot what the previous had inspected. Come finial inspection he claimed he never had a set of state plan review drawings to look at, and previous in wall "curtsey" visits where just that and not inspections. That sort of oversite doesn't just happen on 60mill hospitals. We already had a code complying state plan reviewed building but at the last minute based soley on the 1st line of NFPA that fire Marshall has sole discretion he decided to add $150,000 in signal devices to stroke his own ego. Dollar amount responsibility still in litigation between owner,GC,eletric sub,and device installers.
In short, stroke him on the front side so he doesn't screw you on the back end.
Extra devices happen even when you have the same players all the way through. We stroked the living beJeese out of the Fire Marshall(s) on our last big job. Lots of dinners followed by walk throughs of the building. We added lots of ego stroking....but also caught lots of poor design that needed better protection. Still, no fun changing horses in the middle of the stream......
" It was an existing functioning hotel so before the project was complete they scrapped it and went to putting in tubs and showers for the remaining rooms. "Say what? Sounded at the beginning as tho you were doing an ADA conversion on existing rooms....and generally those are mandated, so regardless of whether anyone "likes" the result, they get done...... got more details?
I would think that on a multi-family structure, you would need an engineers detail to do anything like that. The floor diaphragm can be important for several structural reasons. Get an engineer's stamp, and get it past the plans examiner, and you should be good to go.
Edit to add:
You gotta get it past the condo board also. Your customer probably owns to the top of the gyp-crete. The structural members (which includes the floor joists and the floor diaphragm) is possibly owned by the condo as a whole. To do what you suggest could be a huge headache with little to gain (especially by you).
Edited 1/30/2009 5:49 pm ET by McMark
Edited 1/30/2009 6:38 pm ET by McMark
Yes, we have the condo association approval form. I don't believe we'll have much problem getting it passed (at least I hope not) but we have to have our plans together FIRST to attach to that before it can be sent around, much less approved.As much as I would love to just tear in and get 'er done, this one is gonna have to go by the book in every way.The good news is that if we can get this approved and built, there are other tenants that are reported to want the same thing, so a bit of legwork up front will pave the way for a number of jobs, not just this one.
My insurance won't let me work on condos. Too many lawsuits I guess. 8-)
What city are you in, how old is the building, and is it sprinklered?
The building is in unincorporated King County, legally. Post office is Redmond. It's just 2 yrs old and I believe it is sprinklered.
The building is in unincorporated King County, legally. Post office is Redmond. It's just 2 yrs old and I believe it is sprinklered.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, life will be easier in KC, than say Seattle, Bellevue, Kirkland, or Redmond.
Not in my experience!
is the approval form what you fill out to schedule the meeting where they'll tell you absolutely NO?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Anytime I come across head scratchers like this one I go to the inspector first and ask him what he'd like to see.
You are simultaneously stepping out from behind your ego and stroking his.
I think it's a big reason I've never failed a single inspection in 15+ years of construction.
I was gonna go to the city and talk with the plans checker before I submit for a permit to see if we could come to a meeting of the minds. I mean, they have their rules, and then perhaps we are close enough with our new plan.
The only problem I see is that there is no approved rated floor system that has 2x blocking on the joists so that the plywood can be recessed down flush with the top of the joist.
All rated floor systems have the plywood sitting on top of the joist.
The problem is that the way they get the fire ratings for the floor assembly is to put them in a controlled testing environment and light a fire under them to see how long till burn thru. (All the drywall companies have a book on fireresistant assemblies as well as UL)
To get the CO to approve this would be usurping the fire resistant testing and approvals and whether they approve it or not, it is still not a tested system. Therefore, if (god forbid) the place burn down sometime in the future and they can find that the area you disturbed might have contributed towards spreading the fire quicker, all of the sudden you have some culpibility. (obviously the liklihood is somewhere close to 0 however that is not a risk I would be willing to take) (I'd rather be caught short nailing some deck sheathing or some other minor code violation)
I don't know if you have a similar thing there, but here in Canada we have a ULC list of materials and their fire rating from which assemblies can be built up when existing rated floor or wall systems don't work for you. Assemblies for floor/ceilings start from the underside and work up. I don't remember seeing an assembly that relied on a specific subfloor or floor finish for its rating.
The 1 1/2" gypcrete might be fine for the rating but most are a system rating based on what the system is built from.
Starting at bottom, layers of drywall on ceiling below, joist material and thickness, empty cavity or insulated, sheathing (how many layers and what)
That is the extent of my experience but I would not consider myself an expert.
Just a guy who had to learn about it so I could make sure I could talk intelligently and knowledgebly about the system I was proposing and building.
So, I've gotten loads of good feedback on this, and found out that Wedi has a wheelchair ramp that goes from 3/8" to 1 1/4" over 30" which we can put by the door, and then just raise the whole floor to the 1 1/4" height that the pan is. No cutting through the gypcrete membrane or plywood, which should keep everyone happy. We were going to cover the floor with tile anyway, so it's just a bit thicker and no cutting or blocking or filling. Just remove the old shower, lay the Wedi board, and start tiling.
Thanks again for everyone helping me think this through. It's our first one like this in a multi-story multi-unit building and your input really helped.
PS: If you were going to raise the floor 1 1/2" (by the time its tiled) wouldn't you raise the vanity too?
Sounds like you've got the good answer.....I'd always shy away from having just a layer of rock between my construction site and the downstairs neighbors living space ;-)BTW, what's Wedi board....I've never heard of it?'
Wedi is a lightweight tile backer board. There have been a few discussions here at BT that discuss pros/cons. My brother-in-law who works down in Tacoma has been using it on a few jobs and is really sold on it. Quick and easy to install, and you can tile right over it once it's down.http://www.wedi.de/home_usa/