I am doing research on alternative power for a future home in Colorado and am looking into designing a hybrid wind/PV off-the-grid system, with average consumption ranging from 200 to 600 (Max.) kWh’s a month. Is anyone familiar with this technology that could add some experienced input as to the type of system they have used, reliability, initial cost, size, et al.
Open for discussion…
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
Replies
Ditto... I got interested in Mexico. I was sitting at Coconuts on Cozumel and noticed everything was running on 12v. They had a home made wind generator with what looked like the radiator fan from a truck mounted on the front of a VW bug alternator. It worked. He had a battery from some type of bulldozer or something behind the bar. Being at the beach, there was always a breeze.
Since then, I've looked at lots of systems, but living in SC we just don't have the constant wind rating. CO seems a good spot, TX is too.
To get that range of power from one unit will run $6k-$11k. A Whisper 175 will do it and lists for $7500. You'll need between 12-13Mph winds to get that production level.
I am looking for property that has a hill side, open incoming wind access, you know, prevailing winds not blocked by trees or other hills, and then plan to cobble together much what I saw in MX. I figure a farm of my virtually free mini-turbines is better than one's I gotta buy! Besides, it will let me tinker...
"a farm of my virtually free mini-turbines is better than one's I gotta buy" --
Right on there - unless you build with tax breaks or subsidy, that is the only way it pays.
Did a big trade study in the 80's for a big distributed potential Nevada installation, 200 MW. Trade showed it was cheaper to build and maintain a power plant and all the distribution rather than 4600 separate 45 kW installations, either wind or solar in SW Nevada. (only one 3 day period in 50 years with no sun!), but mediocre wind.
wind energy is high capital cost, unsightly, high maintenance... high cost of storage.. same with photovoltaics..
take a look at "fuel cell " technology...
http://www.nuvera.com/technology/index.htmMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If I set a windmill in front of my mother-in-law, I could power a small city.
Are we related? Well, mine just has a talent for saying exactly the wrong thing at any given moment.
Mine is nice enough, she just talks incessantly about nothing that segues into more nothing and so on and so forth. My poor FIL has had a stroke and has a hard time speaking so he has to listen to it ALL DAY LONG!
Dan, a few months ago my consultant on this priced a 6kW wind system for a design I've done being built in Pueblo. No unusual circumstances. I don't remember the numbers, but they were comparing to the $13K he was gonna be charged by the power company to run power to the house. I'm thinking the whole install, with batteries and generator backup was gonna be just over 30K. I know it was at least over 20K. They went with elec.
http://www.homepower.com/
http://www.renewables.com/
http://www.crest.org/index.html
http://www.realgoods.com/index.cfm?fp=4&sw=1024
http://www.dsireusa.org/dsire/library/includes/map2.cfm?CurrentPageID=1&State=CO
Dan,
If you are in the front range I recommend you go to the 6th annual Solar/Green Built Home Tour in Boulder. Its one day only and is TODAY!
Their website is:
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/environment/becc/becc_solartour.html
I attended last year and it was quite excellent. More on Solar than wind, but there were a few folks up towards Nederland/Sugarloaf that were using both wind and solar.
Best,
Seth
mistake. There is no win
and there is no fail . . . there is only
make."
John Cage
SETH
Damn! I am in Chicago at the moment Seth, I used to live in Woodland Park back in the late 80's early 90's. I have always been on a mission to get back their, after my son goes off to college in a couple years, so I am starting to plan my strategies now. I am interested in both as the hybrid system will compliment each other’s shortcomings, no wind = sun and vice versa with a four day battery storage backup. If you are attending please check back in and tell us all about the new techniques.
NOTCHMAN
You’re a funny man!
MIKE
I am aware it’s not super cheap but at a $12,000 initial investment and an average monthly utility bill of $100 It would begin to show returns in about (+, -) 10 years. I must also add that economics isn’t my main motivation for choosing this type of system and takes a back seat when compared to environment impact concerns I have. Could you elaborate a little more on the high maintenance issue you touched on?
COOLCALL and Others
Thanks for the links and all the input.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
the high maintenance is just that... roof top maintenance for photovoltaics is expensive.. battery maintenance is expensive..
wind tower construction and maintenance is expensive and servicing wind machines is expensive..
if you wil do all of these things yourself.. ok... that's how you want to spend your free time.. maintaining your utilities.. if you are going to hire it done.. it will not only be expensive it will be time consuming.. because you have to find someone who will do the maintenance..
me...i'll wait and see what fuel cell technology MAY bring.. if and when it ever gets here...in the meantime, i'll do my part by building low maintenance homes with super insulationMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Fuel Cells are ok, but they require some type of fuel other than wind and solar. They may pollute less, but wind and solar require no other fuels beyond those to create the system and maintain it. That goes for hydro too, but you've got to have the spot for it. My wife and I are going to see a guy up near Murphy NC that has his own custom hydro plant. That and a diesel gen unit in the basement with some huge batteries supply 90% of their electric needs. It slays me to see electric heat. Nukes don't bother me as much in the equation of you burn a fuel at a plant to make heat, to spin a turbine to make electricity that you send over wire to your house to make heat again. That just gasses me! Never saw it as logical. Saw some NG turbines that are big enough to supply 2-4 houses, maybe more, and provide a good source of hot water to boot. There's one used in Fargo, ND at a hotel for the hot water benefit!
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/pdfs/Capstone%20Holiday%20Inn.pdf
There was a study published regarding wind turbines in rural northern IL and it showed that crop yield behind the wind farm was 1/3 less that the yield in front of the turbines. Everything has an environmental impact. Lets hope that people study the effects before wholesale implementation (sort of like hydro power in the west with all of the dams that were built that destroyed the various ecosystems)(and I guess with the current administration I should have no worries). I was always terrified by the plans in popular mechanics in the 70's to install turbines in the Gulf stream. The article stated that the turbines would only reduce the velocity of the Gulf stream by 5%. Seems like enough to change the coarse of the stream. The up side is that Chicago would be 75 degrees year round.
just a thought.
Hey Archy, would you happen to have a source on that study, I would be very interested in reading it.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
I'll try to find it. My father in law (lived in Rochelle, IL for 80 yrs (then moved to Texas and is still going at 89 (drinks like a fish (this maybe the the key to longevity)))showed me an article in their local paper a couple of years ago that concerned the wind farm. The article mentioned the study. The study may be biased given the farming community but most studies are (depends who pays for them).
Makes some sense if you consider that the turbines do 'harness' or expend some of the force the wind has as it passes. Thus less to distribute pollen for seed production. Why you don't ever plant corn in a single long straight row. In fact, a small stand works best planted in a box or round shape. However, we already produce more than we need crop wise and the gov't pays subsidies to NOT grow some crops. If my hill side full of home brew wind turbines make the wind flat stop going across my property so be it..but thanks to you I'll plant in front instead behind the array..
I have no doubt that I'll be burning Hydrogen in my own fuel cell within ten years, Mike. Whatever happens in the middle east could accelerate or decellerate that timeline..
Excellence is its own reward!
I first actually reacted H2 in a fuel cell in '79, but doubt I'll be off the grid in my lifetime.
Worked on fuel cells on and off for 25 years, the promisies of the technology 25 years ago for PEM, SPE, molten carbonate, etc. were the same then as now - mostly hype and marketing to secure funding. SOIC, maybe?
Even present day suppliers concede that $10,000 per kW is going to be a hard barrier to break (part of which is chicken and egg, volume needed to get costs down, low costs needed to get to volume, the other part catalyst cost - mono Pt layer on carbon nanotubes notwithstanding.)
Volumn to drop costs is the major hurdle - why I say watch the middle east..
Excellence is its own reward!
Your thoughts make sense. But if the issue were completely true, much more investment would be going into the stocks of companies gearing up for fuel cell production. Whereever, whomever, and/or however you define investment.
These stocks are doing worse than the rest of the market. Some have or are going under.
Perhaps WE need to stimulate that investment process. Whereever, whomever, and/or however you define stimulate. Or else we ain't going to have that trump card you describe.
A lot of these smaller developement companies have been getting bought up by GE and GM. That's why they are going off the radar.
I wonder why major world powerhouses would make that kind of investment if they had no hopes of putting it into production?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Mike I am in no way wanting to get into a pissing contest with you but my limited research has shown otherwise. As you give no specifics on the scheduled maintenance required of these type systems my belief is somewhat suspect. I know they will require some type of preventative maintenance and really don’t mind keeping busy nurturing the very system that supports me. Possibly you are making this judgment based on older technology; I’m not sure. But the three companies I am awaiting email responses from on their scheduled maintenance recommendations all boast of 20 + yr. equipment, I am skeptical of these numbers as well. I have requested customer contact info and believe the best way to judge this possible shortcoming is straight from the unbiased horses mouth. I have consistently driven my vehicles well over 200,000 miles with nothing more than simple tune-ups and oil changes, I don’t find building a reliable, low maintenance, limited moving part system such as these to be a major hurdle. I will post the results of my inquiries as soon as they arrive.
Having never witnessed a wind turbine in action, I did speak with a neighbor last night that was vacationing in the mountains three years back and he reported the noise to be extremely annoying and excessive in this serene atmosphere. Does anyone with first hand experience care to corroborate with this observation or is it just a personal judgment call.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
I did find this interesting, which supports Piffins statement and sadly admit I owned absolutely no shares of Impco Technologies at $2.80. Piff you seem to have knowledge of these acquisitions, did you anticipate this trend and make out like a fat rat or are these just post observations?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/586532.asp
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
dan.. here's where i"m commong from.. I built the first solar heated home in RI with my partner.. we had a wholesale retail business that was doing just fine until the govt. got in.. and then got out..before we closed the company we installed more than 100 house heating system, about 50 DHW systems and we were dealers for Winco windgenerators.. want one ? I've still got a 12volt windturbine that has never been hooked up.. and i gave another one to a farmer and he never hooked his up either..
the systems that were installed in the late '70's and early '80s have mostly been ripped off peoples houses and thrown in the dumpster..
most of the wind turbines have been dismantled... the ones that still run are on 100' towers and the neighbors don't especially like them...
the photovoltaics that were installed were capital intensive and are not working today.. the wiring connecting them has corroded..
most of these installations were on south facing roofs.. they were and are ugly.. the companies that installed them are not in business today.. we still get calls from people that have been looking for months for someone to service their DHW units..
plumbers won't touch the roof units, glaziers don't want to go on the roof.. roofers don't know how to reassemble them after they reroof..
the companies you are talking to.. ask them how long they have been in business.. and then make a guess how much longer they will remain.. and then figure out who will honor any warranty they may issue...
nope .. photovoltaics and windturbines are not for the faint of heart.. if you want to service it yourself.. go for it... but who's going to take care of it when you're 64 ? and who wants to buy your house if yu want to sell it ?
my philosophy has always been.. keep it simple and easy to maintain..
here's the south side of our house..glass & galvanized hot air collectors to a rock storage bin..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Here is a sample from one company named Bergy, claiming to have equipment in service for 22 years, as for their future one doesn’t know. This system of wind/PV is self-contained on the tower that tilts down for service. This specific example needs to be tweaked to meet my power needs but gives a basic over view. What do you think and how would you address the idea of becoming totally self-sufficient for power needs economically, or is there no such animal in your view yet?
http://www.bergey.com/Products/VPkg.Hybrid1.htm
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
Dan's example is a 20% interest. I've seen other similar minority interests and joint ventures being taken, but not a "bought up" situation yet. This tells me that some technological barrier is intimidating major investors from moving in.
Now contrary to Dan's example (which was back in June), just a few days ago, Ford said they were NOT bringing their fuel cell hybrid thing to market.
Some previous poster mentioned such a technological barrier was the acid that is produced during the chemical reaction. That's why they focus on pure H2 as a fuel. But to get that, commonly they have to start with some form of hydrocarbon (gas, oil). That refining process reduces the ultimate efficiency.
Additional investment is necessary. And if it would cause a shift in the middle east dependency, I'm sure the feds would be dishing big grants out left and right. There's gotta be something else that's keeping this investment from happening.
But today I'm going to go see that fuel cell in the parade of homes south of Denver.
What about mexican nat gas in a turbine generator. Proven tech, lots of hours between maint time and no middle east oil. Gets bad enough, they'll drill on the white house lawn in the middle of a flower child love-fest democratic party administration. Just has to get bad enough.
Dan,
I spent 3 years selling small renewable energy systems. My first question you you is: What do you want to run that will use 200-600 Kwh per month? That's quite a bit. Oh, I realize thet's pretty normal for a home on the grid, but there are ways to reduce that number without changing your lifestyle at all. I ask because every WATTHOUR you use (per day) can cost you as much as $5 in the initial cost of the system, but its often less depending on lots of factors.
Claims of high maintenance are for the most part unfounded. All you need to do is top off the batteries every once in a while, and wipe down the tops. Lead acid batteries are available that last an easy 20 years. Automated electronics are industry standard now, and will equalize your batteries according to a programmed schedule. Maintenance for PVs? Yeah right! That's a good one. Maybe you can wash them off twice a year. Maintenace for wind turbines is more, and micro-hydro even more than that, but all this depends on what you have, and where its installed. Don't EVER listen to blanket statements such as what were offered in this thread. Do custom builders give blanket statements about what a 2000 sf home costs to build, maintain, and power? Of course not, because we know better. People that don't know like to make sweeping generalizations. Don't forget that you want a CUSTOM renewable energy system. There's no other way to do it.
I recommend you get in touch with someone that deals with this stuff professionally. You'll likely get a reality check in postitive and negative ways.
I wouldn't recommend waiting for any new technologies like hydrogen/fuel cells. At the rate its been moving, you'll be long dead before you can afford it. The technology exists RIGHT NOW; products are available NOW for off grid living that do their jobs almost invisibly in your daily life.
Tom
Tom, I have just used that as a general range upon mulling over last years electric statements. The house that will utilize this technology will be at least half the size of the current one and with less people utilizing its power.
…but there are ways to reduce that number without changing your lifestyle at all.
I am always open to suggestions.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
gee, tom.. suppose you tell me how many of the systems you installed are still operable..
my statements are based on the level of technology available to the average homeowner.. most of these systems are sold to wide eyed innocents who think they are going to save the planet...
if you can't open the yellow pages and call a plumber.. or an electrician to service the equipment , then you are at the mercy of the company that made the equipment and their reps in the field..
you did it for 3 years .. how long ago was that ? why did you stop ?
who took over your customers when you stopped ? when the houses you installed the equipment in were sold.. what did the new owners do with the equipment ? are those the blanket statements you are referring to ?
Dan may be just the guy for these systems.. but he oughta know who is going to maintain them and service them...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore