http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/publications/wind_bracing/
There are four documents on this site that will give you plenty of food for thought about windbracing. After reading it, I’ve decided that I better head back to MI and tear down every house in SE MI to save everyone from the impending collapsing of the entire state LOL!
Bob’s next test date: 12/10/07
Replies
Thank God I live in NJ....................;-)
According to some things I read, you'll have to comply and fill out the new forms if you are building to 2006 irc codes. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
According to some things I read, you'll have to comply and fill out the new forms if you are building to 2006 irc codes.
I didn't read much, I was to scared..........;-)
Either way, I'm under IRC 2006 New Jersey Edition. If any of what you linked to is in there and I have to do it, I will figure out labor for it and follow all specs naturally.
Joe Carola
In my earlier learning years, I would have devoured that 73 page pdf file. Now, I just think..."someone else will have to learn about that LOL".I'm glad I'm on my way out. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I've been having thoughts about like that lately. Just found out that at some certain date near future, every paint guy who works on old homes will need to be lead certified.
But the state has not set up the classes and procedures to do that yet.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Now you know why I've shifted my focus to retail. I see the construction industry as becoming a cesspool of lawsuits and regulation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, we've been building to the 90mph wind code for a while. Most of it is just good building...thing is, when a hurricane, or the remnants of one, come thru, the damage isn't usually directly from the wind, but more blowing trees onto houses. I'll bet the insurance companies would like to see blocking between the rafters and bearing on the top plate. Think Simpson's got something?<G> Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Read recently that here in Ohio all contractors will have to become lead certified in a couple yrs I believe.
In houses with lead there will be abatement/containment procedures mandated.
Now I have two reasons to go into medicine.
1-when the only lumberyard left is HD.
2-when a simple remodel turns into a white suit and breathing apparatus operation. A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
If all states are onto this kick, maybe it is a federal thing.You'd look good in a white suit though!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
From the EPA website:
Common renovation activities like sanding, cutting, and demolition can create hazardous lead dust and chips by disturbing lead-based paint, which can be harmful to adults and children.
To protect against this risk, on March 31, 2008, EPA issued a rule requiring the use of lead-safe practices (79 pp, 847K) and other actions aimed at preventing lead poisoning. Under the rule, beginning in April 2010, contractors performing renovation, repair and painting projects that disturb lead-based paint in homes, child care facilities, and schools built before 1978 must be certified and must follow specific work practices to prevent lead contamination.
So in two more years it will be bunny suits. Not sure how they intend to handle the do it yourself crowd.
As of now the classes for certification aren't even designed yet, so the earliest you can hope to get certified is next year.
That reads that 'contractors' performing the work be certified.I already took a class and got a certificate that I graduated a few years ago because of requirement re any rentals or public facilities.The way I heard on this new one is that any 'person' not just the contractor, but all his employees, will need to have taken and passed the test.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
They appear to be going overboard. In our town, Utica NY, we have been identified as having the largest amount of lead paint in housing stock in NY.
They applied for a fed grant to help with lower income, turned down.
In the meantime it is now big business for the MD's to check children for lead. Needless to say, lawsuits have been filed. In fact one local law firm did a mass mailing to everyone in the designated low income areas. I heard or read that lead paint is being or is going to be regulated by the feds.
Problem is like you say, nothing has been done.
I wonder about that sort of quid pro quo too. They won't help you fix the problem but they'll help their friends make money from the problem.
Did it ever strike you as odd that we have lots of help for peole with no education to get and keep jobs. And we have lots of support for people who have a lot of education (doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, any licensed professional) to be the only ones allowed to do their jobs. But then anyone is allowed to walk into HD, buy a hammer, and sell their "skills"?
I don't like the idea of more regulation. I don't like the idea of more government driving costs up and preventing people from doing simple things on old houses. But more regulations and standards might help the problem of so many people laboring under the belief that carpenters and talented workmen can be taken for granted.
our lead cert classes are about 6 hours... two nightsmy guys & I have all been thrumy painter has about half of his crew thruthe legal requirements are EPA and apply to all house built before '78Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Is the certification from a state or a federal source?My class was an all day thing. 7-8 hours.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've got another question. How has this certification benefited anyone? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I tend to think the main benefit to contractors is reduction in liabilities, unless they choose to ignore what is taught.I know that on my jobs it has reduced the amt of lead ingested and inhaled by myself and my subs. No immediately observable result there, but I had been tested for serum lead levels a couple times around about that time. One of the tests was to measure fresh lead in my blood and the other somehow was able to ID the cumulative build up in my body over my life.That later was somewheres close to the yellow flags borderline for adults but a level that would have set off the flashers for a child.I have plenty of other things making me stupid at this point of my life so I don't need any more lead pushing me into that grey cloud any faster.we tend to see these things as PIA regs, but it does keep people healthier long term, and I think there are times when it can translate to more work and the profits that goes with it. For instance, this spring, I was in a house helping a caretaker check things out and hang some drapes to get ready for this summer occupants.
She mentioend that an old bureau in the nursery should have something done with iot because for her POV, it was hard to keep clean - paint chips kept coming off every time she wiped it.End result of that after a call to the HO to explain the dangers of lead paint chips in a child's room and the box where that child's clothing is kept, brought me the chance to send some indoor painting work to my painter in his shop during bad weather - always welcome in this wet climate. Without knowledge about lead I probably would have been told by this HO to just have the caretaker put a doillie over the piece of furniture.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
jim..... none of us are certified in my company...... but we have the pre-requisites done
the courses are conducted by RIBA and completion entitles us to apply to the state for certification
it certainly raised my awareness on how pervasive the lead problem is, especially in areas of the country where the majority of the housing stock is loaded with lead
the new laws raise the consumer awareness to a pitch ...... rest assured if you are painting a house in a close neighborhood , you now have eperts in every abutting house...... you can have DEM lead abatement guys on your site in 15 minutes with one false procedure
don't ask me how i know
BTW..... almost all the GL policies I have seen exclude LEAD, so you are really letting it all hang out
and ... don't forget, this is federal regulation, with state enforcementMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Blue
You are looking at regulations the wrong way.. Think of it as a way to eliminate competition. Many won't want to go throught the paperwork and hassle. Those that do will be in greater demand.. true there are always some who break the rules but as enforcement becomes more prevelant they will pay a price..
Frenchy, I'm not real big on putting fellow carpenters in jail for working hard every day and trying to feed their families. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
well put!
Blue,
There are valid reasons for all rules. The speed limit for example. While we could argue that some drivers are easily capable of driving much faster than the currant limits we have no real way to determine those who are from those who aren't.
Building houses is the same thing.. I've seen miserable lousy work get nothing more than a glance from a building inspector while flawless careful work is severely questioned and changes demanded.. Yet in 17 years I never once heard a single carpenter admit that he did average or poor work.
Since peoples lives are lost because of shoddy or poor construction there is a legitimate need for a standard. Currantly any Yahoo can pick up some tools and build a house as a subcontractor that lazy or inept inspectors approve..
IF their work is discovered to be poor and word spreads they still can get work by the simple means of charging less for their work.. A lot of homeowners rely on others to do good work and simply shop for price.
People need to take responsibility for their work and yet there is no national standard of training or experiance in order for people to know what is and what isn't good work..
Currantly the only real enforcement of work is the lending institutions which as you are aware have their own deregulation problems..
I get your point Frenchy but the speed limit is a bad example. It is another case of arbitrary enforcement. Go into a speed trap zone (Summerville WV comes to mind) and three miles over the speed limit will get you a big ticket. Go 72 MPH in a 65 zone on Pennsylvania turnpike and you will be passed like you're standing still, by a large number of cars. Very few of which will be pulled over by state police. And we have the opportunity to tell how's speeding automatically.
With things like EasyPass, that take the exact time you enter and leave a highway. You can calculate how fast the person went from on-ramp to exit and if that time was less than the time it would have taken going the speed limit, you could automatically issue a ticket to the guys credit card. So we have the capability to enforce that fairly, across the board, to everyone, automatically, but we don't.
The same thing goes for construction work standards, carpentry, home remodels. It could be an easy requirement for people to register their jobs and then have to submit the credentials of the people who did the work to the local zoning department. It could be an easy thing to record what was done and who did it and if the county, city, state, thinks they're OK. But we don't do it. So some people end up with tough inspectors and others end up with easy times getting things passed. Some shoddy contractors stay in business and some good contractors go out of business trying to meet complex new standards. I don't know if more regulations are the answer if they're not enforced equally.
abbysdad.
Your last statement was the best.. it doesn't matter unless things are fairly enforced..
It applies to speed limits or anything..
However without rules there can be no enforcement. So anything goes..
We don't want anarchy but we hate rules.
It takes real wisdom to understand the need for rules and most people who figure that out are mature. They've made their mistakes and learned their lessons.
Some never do learn and go through their life thinking the trouble is all those rules we need to conform to..
Frenchy, maybe its a question of freedom.If I want to live in a house with 7' tall ceilings, to save and conserve energy, shouldn't I be allowed? What if I'm only 4' tall and that fits me perfectly? Should you and your "rules" tell me how tall my ceilings should be? So, when I get around to selling, shouldn't the buyers go in and measure the ceilings and decide if they are the right height? All those same thoughts can apply to most everything that is regulated. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue..
Maybe that's fine for details we can see but what about the invisable stuff? Much of a homes construction is invisable.. is that buyer beware? Should anyone be able to defraud anyone else simply because they can hide it well?
Banking regulations were estanblished for a reason (ask those who lost money to fraudulant banks) why they are regulated..
You might have a possible arguement if the things you do only affect you but once anyone else is involved the potential for abuse exists.
Should you be able to steal if you don't get caught? same arguement..
So you are okay with giving up the freedoms that our ancestors fought and died for? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
So you are okay with giving up the freedoms that our ancestors fought and died for?
Not many people know this, but shortly after the Boston Tea Party, a bunch of carpenters threw copies of the 1774 edition of the IBC into the harbor.
smslaw,
rolling on the floor laughing my #### off.
Thanks I appreciated that!
I'm not. I'd rather find alternate solutions. There are still areas in this country where you can build without inspections. Somehow, these people manage to survive. Perhaps they know something you don't. They obviously have figured out how to survive without big government doing everything for them. I'd be fine buying a house from one of those people. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Those freedoms are illusionary.. Abraham Lincoln's father moved every time he could see the smoke from a neighbors chimney. Today such an option doesn't exist. There are no endless prairies where an ambitious man can set down and with nothing more than the sweat of his brow and strength of his back carve out a ranch or farm..
Buffalo no longer roam in endless herds nor do we have limitless forests to harvest.
300 million people live in this land where when this country was founded fewer than 300,000 existed.
We have to learn to cohabit the country, heck the world..
I don't know how much you've traveled but what once took a person a lifetime to see can now be seen in a few months.. that means in very real terms the world is shrinking..
You seem convinced that big government is a thing..
It's not! It's rules we set up for our own benefit.. lessons we learned the hard way.
Sure you can still move places where things aren't inspected and yes you may luck out..
Given that a home is the biggest purchase in most people's life it's reasonable that some standard be used to determine that it's built to a minimum standard.
Okay...so are you saying that you agree that a midget should have to build an 8' tall ceiling minimum and waste all that fuel? Do you know that if every midget built a house to their significantly lowered standards, we could reduce the energy use by 3% and NOT HAVE TO PUT AIR IN OUR TIRES!!!! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Why are you being so silly and illogical?
A small person most likely would not build a house to fit his size since that would greatly limit the market he can sell it to in the future..
Why shouldn't we maximise our fuel mileage by inflating our tires? Do you have so much money that you like to waste some?
I know that I get better than average fuel mileage in part because I keep my tires inflated to the maximum.
You should know that inflating tires is a safety issue as well! Otherwise all those who died in Ford Explorer rollovers due to underinflated tires wouldn't be causing Ford Motor company to spend a fortune advertizing about tire inflation..
Frenchy, maybe we are all not as worried about resale value as you are. The point is that freedom is more precious than resale value. I made the point about lower ceilings knowing that there are hundreds of other similar arguments. Should I be forced to have more windows than I want? Code says I need a minimum? Should I be forced to make my house larger? Code says I need to and they don't provide anywhere in the city where I can have a smaller one. Why can't I have a wall with no screws in the field in the drywall? It works fine in MI but it illegal here in Austin? Should I be put in jail for doing something I know works? Is that the freedom that our ancestors fought and died for? Who are these judges and jailers that would prohibit such a minor thought to be implemented? The real point is that government has far went beyond what is necessary to protect us from ourselves. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue.
Again you make the mistake! It's our government not something forced on us..
Don't like the rules? Change them. Convince people that it's in our interest to do so and the rules get changed..
Your flimsey arguements haven't convinced me yet that building to code or better puts and undue burden on people but maybe you can come back with a more compelling arguement..
Mind you I don't feel that all laws are correct! Heck no, I have my favorite peeves as well..
"Your flimsey arguements haven't convinced me yet that building to code or better puts and undue burden on people "Maybe that's because I'm not making that argument. My argument is from a much higher perspective: freedom. I'm saying that freedom trumps much of what you seem to think is important in the codes. You have willingly become complicit in the rolling back of some of our most beloved freedoms. I will go to my grave knowing that the government is overstepping its bounds in many areas...housing being one of them and you will gladly hand over your freedoms to some local bureaucrat to preserve your property values. The sad thing is that in my system, the property values of those that build correctly would be much higher. Well built houses would command a premium. There are other ways to accomplish the goals that you are focusing on beside a governmental yahoo who's on a power trip. Maybe you should use the same logic that you do regarding energy and start advocating for alternative solutions. If it works for oil, why wouldnt it work for constructing well built houses? You might be intested to know that I'm sitting right now in a 300k McMansion that was built in an area that does not require building permits and there are no municipal building inspections done. Should I run out of the house before it collapses? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
In one sense I can agree with you.. Too often we do let petty bureaucrats ride roughshod over our freedoms.. Frankly fighting every single little transgression wears a person out too much to stand up for what's important..
I built my home using both mortice and tenion and post and beam construction techniques because the alterative was getting an engineering approaval. It probably added another few thousand dollars to the cost (but I gained a more secure home because of it).. There isn't anyplace in the code that requires that the inspector wanted it for his peace of mind not mine.. By yielding on that point I was able to proceed without interferance.. So yes I let my rights be trampled on to achieve my goals..
I live in a home that, well you won't find anyplace in the building code that discusses it's construction because frankly it's way outside the norm..
This is in a community that I was forced to fight for 21 years to get a building permit for.. (not because of the construction technique used but due to that petty bureaucrat you spoke about)..
This city is extremely rigorous in inspections and following code..
However simply knowing exactly what the code says and being able to recite it chapter and verses allowed me to build as I wanted to rather than in a manner some building inspector demanded..
In the end knowledge is power..
Exactly. And back to the original topic...
It is the lack of knowledge about wind loads, or the assumption of knowledge that makes a prescriptive based code enformcement system so frustrating to work with. But the option of changing to a performance based code enforcement system requires a highly talented pool of inspectors and design/workmen on the local municipality's staff. It's a lot easier to hire someone, and send them out into the field with the IRC tied around their neck. Include an attitude which doesn't allow any deviations and throws up delays and road blocks if you want to step off the simple well established path that they can approve easily and you have an unfair and arbitrary system of enforcement.
Things like construction framing for wind loads are a good idea. Including details for houses to improve wind resistance is also a good idea. Making it mandatory and codifying it to death may not be a good idea. The home owner and the insurance company for a home should be able to decide what level of risk they are comfortable with and use that to set the standard.
Especially since the inspection department in my county can't spell turbulence let alone understand what should be done to brace a structure for high winds. Design for such random loads is inherently a performance based process. In my opinion, setting it to a prescriptive spec that may not meet all needs for all designs that could still meet the intent and performance based demonstration of preventing failure due to wind loads is an unnecessary burden on owners and builders.
Chris
Florida has a very strong wind code and it evolves to a stronger code every year. The main problem is it is moving so fast that the engineers can't keep up and the building departments don't even try. Everything needs to be stamped and sealed. The inspectors just inspect to plan. The problem is the engineers don't really "engineer" they work from detail handouts they get.
On my project the engineer couldn't put numbers to a requirement for the amount of steel I needed in a concrete beam but that was what his handout said so that is what we did.
This is a 8x16 beam, 14 foot span, four #7s and two #5s, saddles every 8".
http://esteroriverheights.com/electrical/addition/14tie_beam_steel.jpg
The home owner and the insurance company for a home should be able to decide what level of risk they are comfortable with and use that to set the standard.
In a perfect world or maybe a dream world !
You can engineer it better and build it better all you want, but you are still assigned the same risk as everyone else in your insurance coverage area.
Florida is trying to fix that problem. They have the My Safe Florida Home program where you get your house inspected and they adjust your insurance based on the wind code compliance.
Florida and CA insurance carriers seem to be driving improvements in codes to reduce thier risk. It is and always will be the financial impact that drives the bus. The same can be said for the respective goverments of those states that have high risk exposure for hurricanes, earthquakes, floods and now wild fires.
Without the financial driver, insurance cost would skyrocked beyond the ability of most average people to pay it. The net result would be a population flight away from those high risk areas, and a net reduction in the state(s) tax base.
I don't know if there are any states that require homeowners insurance, maybe they do. I do know that most finacial institutions require it as part of a morgage contracts. Agian, a financial driver.
When a builder or HO go beyond code compliance and build it better in my state, the insurance companies are not required to reduce or discount thier rates. Even though the risk is lowered for them, there is no financial or regulatory reason for them to do so.
Not to even mention how many owners the average house has in it's lifetime. I have had original owners who were present when a septic tank was put in forget where it is located after just 4 years. Someone expects them to keep records and pass on information on how their house wasn't built to code? Gimmee a break!
Edited 8/6/2008 10:51 am by dovetail97128
abbysdad,
Most communities have plenty of data on typical wind loads and thus one community that seldom ever sees anything more than a breeze doesn't enforce the code to the same degree that a community with regular exposure to hurricanes and tornados..
Besides the suppposed burden isn't all that great.. there is a great deal of data in the Taunton press book about roofs and they even include the cost of compliance while those numbers are a bit dated they should be an simple adjustment based on modern costs..
I suspect what's going on here is more about Gee I don't really understand this and know what I have to do. Rather than Oops it's gonna cost me $310 dollars more to comply..
RI has three design wind zones....
Block Island and south coast is 120 mph
bay area is 110 mph ( our zone )
and inland is 100 mph
120 is a quantum leap in compliance
110 is fairly easy to comply with as long as you pay attention and allow for it in the design and biddingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Florida has 6 zones <100MPH to >150MPH. Most of coastal florida is 130, 140 on the beach and 150 in Miami and the Keys.
Frenchy,
I still don't see how this helps people understand what they have to do. The wind speed maps and wind load data most counties have is a gross simplification. The Fairfax county document that is listed in the first post says that they picked 90 mph based on judgement. The Florida map says some areas may see up to 130 mph. So how much risk is associated with that judgement? Will they have to update the code if they get a 50 year storm that exceeds the wind speed record they based their judgement on? What if the local wind speed exceeds 131 mph? Is the code standard still OK?
Wind loads are all about probability and the distribution function used to predict likely wind velocities. A useful probabilistic performance based wind load resistance criteria could say something like, "Must be designed to resist the shear loads on the wind ward and leeward walls generated by the upper 95% wind speed multiplied by a factor of 1.15 at a 50% confidence level." Something like that gives you a flat assessment of risk, built-in margin in case some freak natural event exceeds the design wind speed for the area and is easy to record for posterity so that those that come after you know what the standard was.
The homeowner and builder aren't tied to a set structure and have any options they want as long as it meets the level of performance specified in the standard. The home owner also knows that the builder constructed the house structure to resist all but the upper 5% of the likely wind speeds in his area at least 50% of the time. If a freak storm erupts, it goes into the extreme tail of the normal distribution used to estimate the probability of wind velocity and doesn't invalidate the code standard. If the home owner wants a tighter structure, he can ask for a different level of probability and get a reduced risk. Kind of like requesting a different deductible for your insurance policy. It makes sense to give people that information and knowledge in places like Florida, Louisiana, Kansas, etc.
Now, I admit, how you specify and inspect the construction details for that kind of standard, and how you find the engineering firm to support the number of permits that would need that sort of assessment is another matter. It would probably add more than a couple hundred bucks to the process.
However, the surrounding area can affect wind speeds locally, and none of the standards or codes mentioned in this conversation mention a probabilistic assessment of wind velocity or risk. None of them give the home owner the information to assess their risk like the insurance companies do. They're all just best guesses for appropriate shear wall details based on past history.
So...how are these prescriptive specs better for the home owner or the builder? How does it help people figure out something useful to do about the problem? Why can't we just leave it to builders and engineers to educate themselves and then homeowners can decide who to go with in the free market system we've got now? I'm willing to be convinced. Sorry for the long post.
>>However, the surrounding area can affect wind speeds locally
>>Why can't we just leave it to builders and engineers to educate themselves and then homeowners can decide who to go with in the free market system we've got now
The first statement is a caveat that can change over time. Change the landscape by building multiple structures, tall structures, removing trees, leveling hills and adding acreas of asphalt parking lots will all impact local wind direction and velocity. A structure built to comply with your propability parameters could fall out of your 95% pretty quickly, in rapidly developed areas.
Your second statement is a plain old pipe dream to me. It sounds good, but it just doesn't happen. Maybe 5-10% of the builders out there truely care about "fine homebuilding" from dirt to turnkey. The rest are just building to the minimum or adding cosmetic fluff to eek a few more $$ profit out of thier projects. Even the classes offered by most local home builders associations only teach code compliance or discuss more profitable business practices.
Go to any residential building site and ask any carpenter to explain load paths, shear walls, or even simple bracing and you will get a "deer in the headlights" look, or maybe such a line of BS that you will almost puke. Most don't study thier trade. They just learn to do the job and soak up whatever information, or misinformation, that is fed them.
Free enterprize in the the construction industry seems to be a "let me alone and let me make money attitude" rather than healthy competion that will produce a better and safer product for the consumer.
Where I live each truss would be strapped with a HETA20 (embedded in a concrete tie beam) or a H16 (wood to wood) and they are 1860# and 1470# respectively on each end.
You guys in Fl and Ca are the exceptions to most of the country. Some of your research and historical performance data is slowly trickeling into other state codes, but all to often it is being beaten back by builders associations lobbying, because it is not seen as items that can be easily passed on to the market end users.
I can't remember how many times in the last few years of building my house I have had potential subs tell me "you don't need all that" when looking at my prints. Makes me want to bang my head agianst a block wall in frustration. Some of them don't even know that Ky adopted the IRC, much less that there are wind, snow and earthquake zones.
We get our fair share of tornados here as well as high speed straight line winds. Yet when I listen to the local news after one of these events I here nothing about needing to change how we build to protect people and property from future destruction.
It seems to take back to back catastrophies like you all have had to spur the research and changes needed.
Edited 8/7/2008 2:50 pm ET by DaveRicheson
WellSaid Dave,
Maybe it's vanity on my part but I anticipated the worst possible situation and built my home to vastly exceed that.
When I go to Europe and look at those homes that have stood for centuries through wars and the worst that nature can throw at them I understand that a home built that way is the best possible monument to our skill.
One thing all those durable homes have had in common is being overbuilt..
I know at some point I'll die.. it is an honor to make something with my own hands that should live long past my lifetime..
Maybe if those thoughts were important to others enough well built homes would exist so that we don't have to worry about your neighbors 2x4 flying through your wall when it collaspes..
I know when I hear about the east coast "tornados" with 110 MPH winds (not to be confused with the F4 monsters in Oklahoma) that devastate communities I just think "if you folks had a wind code"
When I lived there and they had those little dust devils go through, it was shingles with 3 staples and siding with a half dozen nails in it that were blowing around the neighborhood.
Even in Andrew, most of the single family home damage was found to be in construction that didn't even meet the code in effect when it was built.
Trailers really didn't have any codes so they blow up in a minimal summer squall.
Florida is doing their part to make things tougher...must to the chargrin of many roofers, builders and homeowners when this law went into effect last year.
http://www.dca.state.fl.us/FBC/whats_new/Hurricane_Mitigation_Retrofit_Rqmnts_revised.pdf
I agree. When the outlaw trailers, I'll buy into Frenchy's thought process a little more. In the meantime, I'll go down inside my basement when a tornado approaches. I don't think any little old lady has ever died from a 2x4 hitting her when she was in her basement. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Sad to say some die who have no basement or storm cellar. Not every house does as you well know.
We have the knowledge to build homes capable of withstanding weather we experiance. Including Tornados, earth quakes, and hurricanes..
the costs as I pointed out aren't massive..
I'll repeat them here.. it costs $175 dollars to install 100 lag bolts (the strongest roof connection available) This is based on a carpenter being able to install a nail every 10 seconds and earn an average of $21 per hour. 1990 estimates, adjust for today and your market. But in any case we aren't talking about significant numbers!
The strength over a normal toenailed rafter connection is 2575 pounds (2783 versis 208 pounds of force to remove)
That to me doesn't really seem like a massive cost increase for the potential strength gain.
I'll grant you that not every home is subjected to Tornado force winds nor is every home exposed to earth quakes or Hurricanes.
Where those aren't a realistic possiblity perhaps such concerns could be ignored or minimised to reflect real world potential..
"Sad to say some die who have no basement or storm cellar. Not every house does as you well know."Why would they allow houses to be built without basements when they know basements are lifesavers when tornados hit? Do you see the hypocrisy there? They'll make us put simpson ties on foamed walls and then allow trailers and homes without basements. If they really were interested in saving lives, they'd require basements and ban trailers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Well said! Nobody said humans had to be reasonable or logical.. I certainly can't excuse it but then nobody named me king thus I can't command everybody to obey my rules..
I don't think because it's not common knowledge that's any excuse not to do it.. as I pointed out, we're not talking about a whole lot of money here. If we as builders can figure this sort of stuff out don't we owe society our best efforts?
Isn't it wrong to whimp out because our customers don't demand it? Shouldn't that be something we treach them? Frankly I'd do it as a sales feature. My roof is put on 15 times stronger than my competitors roofs are.. here's why that important to your safety..
Think of it..
Anybody who didn't mention that will be assumed to have the inferior roof attachment.
Those who do mention it will have the same costs as you!
I love selling like that.. I'm doing them a favor and educating them about the benefits.. Turns me from a salesman into a consultant.. salesmen are doubted consultants are believed and trusted.
They don't have basements here in Florida because they tend to become indoor swimming pools. I can dig a well in my yard with a post hole digger.
In fact the rule is you need to be 6" above grade for your finished floor on a slab and if you are anywhere near water you need to be at the FEMA mandated elevation above the datum plane or sea level.
No problem. The last house we built in MI went like this. We poured our 10" footing on grade. We put a 9' basement walls in and bakfilled all the way around it. The single story house was built on top of that. Incidently grammas get hurt when old trailers fly through the air and hit them, don't they? Hasn't simpson invented straps that can be placed over old trailers yet? I'll go check their catalouge Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
There are hold down kits for older trailers but what we found in the storms is the trailer itself just comes apart under the tie down. If you lose the dimensional stability of one corner the whole thing folds up like a wet cardboard box.
The newer trailers like FEMA uses have steel strapping integral to the construction that terminates around the lower frame where the hold down anchors attach.
I don't think that they can even call these permanent homes. I think they are titled as RVs (a little loophole in the law)
Now that you mention it...don't cars fly around in Tornados? Shouldn't the authorities require every car to be equipped with tie downs to protect gramma? Every parking space should have at least four anchors imbedded in concrete extending down to bedrock. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Being silly doesn't make you credible.
Frenchy, if you dont see the hypocrisy, then I guess you would think I'm being silly. Your claim is that we need to protect gramma from flying 2x4's but cars and stuff fly all over when tornados hit too. I worked in a tornado ravaged neighborhood. I know that simpson ties didn't matter. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Will you admit there are things people can do to protect themselves from floods tornados, earthquakes, and hurricanes? If so then why would you say that they don't have to do so?
That's like allowing everybody to drive wherever they want to at whatever speed they choose without regard to stop signs and rules.. If we all agree to conform to certain traffic rules why is it so wrong to conform to certain building rules?
Society cannot allow such liberties without dening other their liberties as well. it's all a compromise . If less than prerfect we can attempt to improve it or resort to anarchy.
I admit that there are times when localities should govern and make rules that restrict and force people to build to certain standards. I just think they have went too far in too many places. You give them an inch and they take a mile. MI is a prime example. We have two million homes standing firm and proud with no anchor bolts, no simpson ties, no joist hangers and no sill plates and all of a sudden we need hurricane ties on every truss. There has never been any houses moved off their foundation. It would be front page news if it happened. Therefore, I don't think simpson foundation straps are necessary in MI. But...becasue the authorities are godlike in their power...they force us to put them in. If you'll admit that we don't really need them in MI, then I'll admit that more stringent measures are needed in seismic and high wind zones. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
I don't have a single problem with admitting that on occasion some people abuse authority or require uneeded things.
Therefore based on what you've just told me that no Tornado has struck Michigan I'll sure accept that it seems unrequired.
Not sure about areas immediately adjacent to the lake though.. I've heard of some pretty wicked straight line winds coming off the lake.. Have any buildings around the lake been been blown apart due to winds coming off the lake?
I built a house on Lake Huron. It's still standing. There are no simpson ties and I stapled the roof on. I even forgot to put in extra staples. After a couple years, I remembered that in high wind areas I was supposed to put two extra fasteners. The roof is holding up fine.I never said tornados dont hit MI. I'm saying that tornados don't destroy everything unless it's a direct hit or it's a massive tornado. If it's that big, cars are flying. In my lifetime I think I can remember three or four deaths total from MI tornados. The probablity of getting killed or injured from tornados is so low that the government should just ignore that threat and ban everyone from driving. I'm pretty sure more people get injured and die each year from eating bad food. Maybe the government should outlaw food? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
I suspect that like Minnesota, Mich. doesn't get that many really nasty tornado's- F1's & 2's. ( I Think you need to be further south for the F5's )Mich. is really outside the tornado alley that comes up to Minnesota..
Minnesota does lose a few people each year from tornados but I'm sure that some of them are not in houses.. .
The matter of simpson ties doesn't bother me as much as it does you apparently. we're at most talking a few hundred dollars not tens of thousands.. Seat belts in cars are cheap and they save lives too. Why not simply take that approach towards roof connections?
The original owner may not be concerned but how often are homes sold? It's not easy to find out if a roof is attached with a few nails or with something more secure..
EDIT!
I just read about all the deaths from Tornadoes in Mich. better check out what Dovetail posted to me..
As to your red herring about food that is a seperate issue treated seperately and a far more reasonable solution has been found than your draconian suggestion..
Edited 8/9/2008 9:08 am ET by frenchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Michigan_Tornado_Outbreak http://www.crh.noaa.gov/dtx/palmsunday/
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail
Well I guess based on that Blue was wrong about the rareity of tornados in Mi..
Jim, I would agree but I would also say your insurance company should have the right to exclude wind coverage from your standard homeowner policy and set the wind policy premium on the wind load engineering you built to.
I agree. There's always another insurance company to deal with. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
gfretwell,
In additon whenever Blue should sell that underbuilt home he should have to fully disclose that fact.
I'll call him today. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 8/9/2008 10:56 am by Jim_Allen
What are we going to do about those other 2 million homes that were built the same way and don't seem to be blowing away? Mass disclosure list? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Cars built after 1974 have catalitic converters. Thus if you sell one without a converter you are breaking the law..there are many other things that if built after such and such a date must conform to these specs.
There are 100 million more people in America today than when I was a toddler. I don't expect things to be the same now as when I was born. That's the price we pay for living in a society rather than alone on an island..
I suspect you are wrong about it being illegal to sell a car that was built after 1974 without a catyltic converter. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
It is, I'm sure of it. (it's also illegal to sell a car built after 1968 without seatbelts).
Second you asked about the homes that don't conform to wind rules.. which is the analogy I used when I explained about cars..
Something to consider,
Untill vary recently cars headlights had to be made of glass. As new technology's came into effect they modified that rule. I can see a point where mechanical fastners no longer hold roofs on. We super glue them or something.. rules will change at that point as well.
Change is inevitable. You can either accept change or fight it.. but change will happen just as sure as the tides will come in. Even the King of England couldn't keep tides from coming in and to fight a rising tide is foolish.. Accept changes.
The King of England lost his chance to own America because of his interference in their everyday lives. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
So we replaced a king with a president.
and so?
I agree. We're tossing out all of our freedoms every day and hoping the federal government will protect us from ourselves. Thank goodness we have bureaucrats. I can't wait till they are making my decision for me when I'm lying on the operating table hoping they'll give me some medical coverage. I'm sure the system will be just as organized and comprehensive as the Katrina assistance in New Orleans. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Depends on if the republicans with their kronism are in charge or Democrats who believe in appoint the best qualified people. <grin>
You were trying to be sarcastic but you are right. We do lose some freedoms all the time with the increase in population..
That's the price we pay because we prefer to live here in America rather than at the south pole or someplace equally remote..
BTW Florida hasn't really banned trailers but if you have an old one that doesn't meet the current code you can't move it and reinstall it anywhere in the state.
BTW Colorado hasn't banned trailers just some of their locations but if you have an old one that doesn't meet the current code you can't move it and reinstall it anywhere in the state....
also you will find most modulars are put in with a basement now...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Why would they allow houses to be built without basements when they know basements are lifesavers when tornados hit?"The real question is why would they prohibit basments in house destroyed by a tornado.http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/724447.html"CHAPMAN, Kan. | Tell a town of Kansas tornado survivors that they can’t have a basement? Amy Bemis has a word for talk like that.“Insane,” she says.Like most residents of Chapman, Kan., Bemis huddled in her basement the night of June 11, when a tornado destroyed scores of homes in this town of 1,250.Recovery efforts are in full swing, and residents say they will remake Chapman better than it was before.But the efforts to rebuild the community now face an obstacle townspeople did not expect: Federal reconstruction rules are forcing many residents to rebuild without the basements that sheltered them through the storm."The reason is that the area is in a flood plain, but flooding has not been a problem.After a lot of pressure later articles report that FEMA may have found some exceptions that might allow the basements..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
and people wonder why I fear my government! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This is in Germany, but I can see some place like Berkly trying to pull a stunt like this.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/world/europe/07solar.html?_r=1&oref=sloginGerman City Wonders How Green Is Too Green"The town council took the significant step in June of moving from merely encouraging citizens to install solar panels to making them an obligation. The ordinance, the first of its kind in Germany, will require solar panels not only on new buildings, which fewer people oppose, but also on existing homes that undergo renovations or get new heating systems or roof repairs.""In the middle of this political chess match sit homeowners like Götz Schönherr.From his deck, Mr. Schönherr can see the town’s famous hilltop Gothic castle as well as two of its three power-generating windmills. On his roof, a solar panel glints in the sunlight. He already uses the solar energy to heat his water, which has allowed him to turn off his boiler for roughly six months a year, a boon for his pocketbook but a decision he said he made for the sake of the environment.And yet Mr. Schönherr opposes the new ordinance.Mr. Schönherr had hoped to reinsulate his home, but to do so, and to satisfy the solar regulation, he would have to install a larger solar panel. It would cost him close to $8,000.“That leads, in my case, and I would think in other cases as well, that people say, ‘Well, let’s just not reinsulate the roof,’ ” Mr. Schönherr said. “So it’s absolutely counterproductive.”".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ahhh...the wisdom of big government. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Always something isn't it.
Why are people allowed to build in flood plains or why do they not have basements to shelter them from tornadoes. Do you have solution for the dilemma?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes, I have a solution: let people do as they please. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Reminds me to ask you , what wind tie downs are you going to use on that new double decker bus/restaurant your installing, probably be along the same lines as those used for mobile homes huh?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
None. I don't believe much of that stuff is really necessary and I certainly wouldn't spend an extra $1 on anything simpson. If we don't need tiedowns on every car in inland America, we don't need tiedowns on anything. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
""Yes, I have a solution: let people do as they please.""Why Jim, thousands of illegal immigrants will take heart from your open minded endorsement of their cause.
I thought you were a libertarian not an anarchist.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
YOu've extrapolated the "let us do what we please" to include aliens illegally entering the US. Im okay with immigrants coming here, legally. I'm not an anarachist but I'm not a marxist either. Libertarians believe that the government have duties...limited duties but each individual should be able to live free and do what we please withing reasonable boundaries. If I choose to put a basement in a 100 year flood zone, I hardly think there are any compelling reasons why a government should stop me. To do so indicates a government out of control and if you don't slow them down, you'll end up in a dicatatorship with every right ever fought for gone. I know you don't understand any of that. I'm pretty confident that you walk willingly onto a boxcar.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 8/8/2008 8:04 pm by Jim_Allen
No Jim, I allowed your statement to stand all on it's own. Pretty ridiculous statement isn't it. I did point out the difference between what you have claimed to be and what an anarchist is though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
You can't point out anything you want. You misunderstood me and you now stand corrected. Nice job figuring it out. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What is to misunderstand? """"Yes, I have a solution: let people do as they please."""" No qualifiers, no commentary, no elaboration.
No brainer.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Hey I found some more people would would heartily endorse your statement and attitudes. Some 7 million of them!! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000912.html
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
>>Yes, I have a solution: let people do as they please
Come on Jim.
You missed a golden opportunity there.
Who let them build house with basements in the first place?
When was it declared a flood plane?
Why didn't the local government start a relocation drive when the declaration was made?
What about property values and insurance rates? Didn't one go down and the other go up when it became such a hazardouse place to live?
Kind of like the old adage, "reasonable men will make reasonable decision,...when given all the truth about a problem ."
"' Bemis, who was in her basement as the twister ripped her home apart, bought a new lot just outside the floodplain. She considered rebuilding without a basement but then remembered that night last month.“We’re staying in Chapman, and we’re going to have a basement,” she said."' Apparently this wasn't part of the story you read.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
People should be able to build basements in a floodplain if they want. There are such newfangled things as sump pumps. In Austin, we would save hat water and water our plants with it. It probably would be a bad idea to put a furnace down there in the basement. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Think about your statement that there are new fangled things like sump pumps. They require power to function. If the ground is covered with two feet of water, do you really think they will have power? And, exactly how big of a sump pump do you think it will take to stay ahead of a couple of egress windows with a couple of feet of head pushing water in them?
The problem with them building in flood plains, is that when the flood comes we all have to cover their recovery costs. I purposely didn't buy in the flood plain, even though there is a dike around it. I resent that someday the flood will come, and I and the rest of the taxpayers have somehow become responsible for bailing them out.
Locally people are building on the river bottoms. This causes two problems:
1.) When, (not if, but when), they get flooded we are all supposed to bail them out.
2.) Since they are outside the city limits, they are all on wells, with sceptic systems. Eventually the leach water will penetrate deep enough to contaminate their wells. At, which point the City/County will reach an agreement to extend water service to them. And, we will all pay increased water rates to cover the expense.
On a related subject: I am disgusted by motorcycle riders with no helmets. Again because they get to decide to put all the rest of us at financial risk for their personal pleasure. I think they should have the right not to wear a helmet. But the fact they do not have a helmet on, should also be a defacto DNR order, and the public shouldn't spend a dime to keep them alive when they wreck, or pay to support or rehabilitate them if they do survive.
America currently has a huge problem: We have decided that we all have individual rights, but damnably few people seem to realize that they also have a responsibility to the rest of society not to abuse those rights, and endanger everyone else.
You don't need basements to survive a hurricane or tornado. You need a secure room in the core of the house that will survive. A closet with 8-inch reinforced concrete walls would be more than adequate. Except, most people would fill it so full of things they don't really need, that they would be unable to get into it.
Edited 8/8/2008 6:51 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
So, your argument for taking away my freedom of choice would be to stop me from building a basement because of insurance costs? If you truly wanted to protect the freedoms that our forefathers risked their lives for, you'd be a little more openminded and find alternate solutions. For instance, the decision to ban basements obviously was discussed by some lawmakers somewhere. Why didn't they choose to forbid "normal" insurance companies from covering basements in the flood zone? That way, if I chose to build a basement, and it flooded, I wouldn't affect your rates. That is a very simple solution that protects freedom. If people choose to live in areas that are risky, the locals could pass an ordinance that forbid rescuers to go there. Again....freedom reigns. I've never heard of a city extending water service free to anyone. Motorcyclists who choose to go bare could be excluded from insurance policies or charged an additional rate that reflects the expected expenses. Of course, that same thought process should be applied to people who drive in smaller cars because the danger of them being hurt are much higher. You seem to want to strip Americans of their rights because some dogooders want to rescue and save them from themselves. Just leave them alone! Americans have no right to survive a tornado and there should not be laws that force them to build to survive one. If someone chooses to build a basement, they should be allowed. If they choose to build a safe room, they should be allowed. If someone chooses to live in a trailer, which is a death trap when tornados come, they should be allowed. If you live next door to a trailer park, and you want to survive a tornado, you should probably beef up your safe room or basement because flying trailers will be the word of the day when the tornado hits. If you don't like that, move ten miles away from the trailer park. No trailer has been known to fly more than 9 miles. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 8/8/2008 8:21 pm by Jim_Allen
I am not talking about insurance costs. I am talking about mandated government expenditures.
Until such time as you can rewrite the constitutions of many states, the state will be required to proved care for indigents, and emergency aid to stupid people who do things many wouldn't.
I used to rock climb with a pinhead who free climbed. All about his personal right to choose. Except when he lost it and fell, the County had to spend $15,000 getting him off the rocks and life flighted to the hospital. The ICU, and reconstructive surgeries were over $1,000,000. Now he is disabled, and drawing Social Security, and we are still paying his medical bills for the long term effects of his injuries.
The thing you are missing is that the vast majority of Americans, think that it is societies responsibility to care for those who make stupid decisions. In many States it is enshrined in the constitution, the rest have it written into the statutory responsibilities of the Counties and Cities.
Until people start to realize that they need to be responsible for the consequences of their actions, the idea that people should be allowed to make their own decisions won't work. And since most people do not have the technical skill to actually analyse even simple problems, they will never make good decisions.
If you really think that the government shouldn't be making such decisions; you need to convince people that they, and not the government need to take sole responsibility for the consequences of their bad decisions.
Until then, they already have too much ability to make stupid decisions that we all have to pay for, and I am definitely against that.
So let me understand you. The government makes rules that require us to participate in SS, and pay a very large portion of our earnings into it, then, because we are in SS, we should have to refrain from free climbing? Can't you see how the government is taking away freedom there? Do you think Thomas Jefferson and company were fighting for freedom so that the government could have better SS actuarial tables? And who says the government should pay for his reconstruction. Who says they should fly helicopters in there and save him from himself? Why do you think the government is responsible to save everyone from their foolishness? I don't climb mountains at all, rigging or not. If you asked me, I wouldn't allow my taxes to save anyone no matter what they were doing on a mountain. You want to be safe....sit on the park bench next to an emergency room and have your health insurance card paid up. Once you enroll everyone in SS, you can't start telling them what they should do to be safe to keep the rates down. Today, they'll be complaining about free climbing. Tomorrow they'll be complaining about you living to too long into old age and they'll be injecting you on your 75th birthday. Me, I'd gladly opt out of SS, UE and everything else, especially if you'd free me from the bureacracy and taxation and let me live free and sell my services, as is, without governmental interference. Let the buyer beware! Does that mean I'll give them less than what a licensed builder would give them? Not necessarily. I might give them more and build it better and add more hardware. I'd be able to afford it...I wouldn't be sending my earnings off to SS and the State. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Actually you have it backward. SS and Medicare are hoping you do smoke, ride your Harley without a helmet and rock climb, hopefully killing yourself before you are old enough to collect benefits.
Are you supplying the money for everyone too buy a new lot?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
How about the money to pay for flood relief? That doesn't count?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
You must have missed the part that they don't have a flooding problem..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You mean the two floods they have had since 1950? Two floods in a 100 year flood plane in less than 43 years? How many tornadoes have they had since then?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
abbysdad,
No need to apologize. You had a good question that required that sort of context to discuss well.. I wish I could be as concise.
To answer your question about why we can't rely on local builders, first few have any formal training.. Those that have are under price pressure to build at a competitive cost. Things eliminated don't cost anything except down the road..
And finally failure of a house doesn't result in damage solely to that house.. flying parts become projectiles damaging other homes who may have complied with the requirements..
A typical roof properly toenailed on requires 208 pounds of pressure to remove (The cost of toenailing isn't discussed). . A roof with Simpson H5 rafter connnections will come off at 610 pounds and according to the chart it costs $49.00 per 100 to install.. The strongest connection, Lag Bolts come off at 2783 pounds and cost $175 per 100 to install.
Just for information those aren't installed to their maximum strength rather they are simply jammed in.. gains could be achieved with either superior strength wood (say ash) or predrilling or both for maximum retention..
It is not unreasonable to believe that the key ingrediant to holding a house together could be increased as much as 20 times the currant for less than a thousand dollars..
Again perhaps if the intial owners were the only ones affected your arguements would have merits..As I pointed out it's not! How would you like to see a 2x4 jammed thru your grandmothers chest because your neighbor failed to ensure that his house was built strong enough to meet anticipated conditions?
(sorry for the graphic anaology)
Maybe gramma should hide in a SIP home when the tornado hits. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
I don't know how much superior it would be to penitration. Some but I've never seen anything to quantify that.
Frankly I think ICF's are superior to SIP's anyway.. they would protect an occupant..
Blue and Frenchy,
Love you guys.Never a dull moment or topic. Each has so much knowledge that even a homeowner DIYer can learn..Of course the reason I lurk here is to learn from the pros and semi-pros.Pete
Feelin' yer luv! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yup, some real pro sales people in here. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
No, the analogy is apt.
It's a huge concern when you start thinking about wind effects in center parts of the country. But in my way of thinking, at the community/municipality level you set the floor for the risk they're willing to accept of having Grandma run over by a flying lawn deer.
The code supports the minimum risk the community feels is reasonable. The builders that learn the code and can adapt make more money supporting a standard that has a basis in scientific risk management and is defendable. That means less law suits over time too. And maybe the community can haggle with different insurance companies for lower rates because of building to a certified standard that specifies the risk profile for those homes. That sure beats insurance companies pulling up en masse after a hurricane.
Maybe it's a pipe dream. But I've been the engineer at local community zoning boards and I know there are people out there who would stand up for this sort of thing. Until they do, I agree with some of the other posters. It's a pipe dream tied to a chicken and the egg problem. The builders won't change until the code changes. The people will stay ignorant because it's easy and there's no incentive from the insurance companies for them to get smart. I ran into the same sort of problems when writing natural hazard mitigation recommendations and construction guidelines in Bangladesh. I still hope the same attitudes won't win out over on this side of the Pacific.
Sigh...I'll go back to being a frustrated structural engineer now.
Do you do your sales within a franchised protected territory?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
In general yes!
Factories have found that failure to protect territories doesn't really result in increased sales. In fact the opposite happens. Competitors come in a cherry pick accounts and then leave without providing training, service, or parts.
Every single factory I've worked for had standards of conduct and training required for it's sales staff. While I can sell outside of my territory the profit from that deal is split with the dealership that services that territory Thus providing little incentive to do so. So when I served national accounts I recieved full commision only for the equipment that remained within our territory. The rest I basically did to retain my relationship with the cuistomer and so he would have A SOURCE TO WORK WITH IF A PROBELM SHOULD ARISE..
In my earlier learning years, I would have devoured that 73 page pdf file. Now, I just think..."someone else will have to learn about that LOL".
73 pages??? Holy Sh!t!!!
I wait til I start seeing plans that have this stuff spec'd.
Joe Carola
Thank God I live in NJ....................;-)
You'd have to start sheathing the walls while they are on the deck . . . . :-) Then because you are so wimpy to lift them, little Joey would have to come out and help!!
Jim, this is a little off topic but points out how code improvement in California helped in last weeks L.A. quake.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2008/07/30/92341.htm
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I think it on topic. I'm glad that CA has enacted some sensible building rules. I think every locality should enact sensible building rules, especially if there is a net gain in safety, especially in lives lost. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Building codes in California are among the strictest in the world,"
I had to chuckle when I read that. My eye!
I grew up in L.A. Maybe they are the most strict in the US. But the world? Give me a break.
Not that I am so sure the article is correct, but where else in the world is everything so regulated? China? Indonesia? Iceland?
Personally, I think I may have met the strictest building inspector in the world, while walking a hospital remodel framing inspection a couple of years ago. ; ^ )
Miserable s.o.b he was. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
We just started to deal withall of this a couple years ago. Most of it should be drawn on the plans. I draw plans as well as build and have hadto get the plans engineered to satisfy the BI. I know that probably seems like the dark ages to some but it is new or us. The codes should have abolished vinyl eaves without understructure and 3 tab roofs to save on wind claims.
The intent is to safe guard life, secondary is protection of property.
The structure is assumed to have a hundred year life, and is designed to withstand events of magnitudes that are expected once every hundred years.
The shingles only have a twenty year life, so why would you want to make them strong enough to withstand the 100-year event. All it would do is cost money.
Hurricane damage costs around here are huge with interior damage from roofing blowing off. If you're left standing in a framed house during a hurricane with no siding or roofing and water pouring through your light fixtures and beginning the process of mold, you would wonder why 3 tab and cheap vinyl is allowed. But really, what's left of a house if the roof get stripped and it sits there for months waiting for adjusters. In the end.... abate mold, haul out everything else to have some useable framing and sheathing just doesn't add up.
You point out a big reason why insurance is so high. People need to take some personal responsibility for protecting their property.
I have a 100x50 blue poly tarp stuffed away just in case I do have a massive roof failure.
The other thing is you CAN start before the adjuster shows up. After Charley we had the crane there removing the tree the next day. If you wait, these guys get busy but right after the storm they are just sitting there waiting for the phone to ring. By mitigating the damage early I managed to keep my bill below my deductible and I never had to call the insurance company. My life was a lot easier too.BTW after doing some roof work and looking at the newer products, I think everyone should have a roll or two of peel and stick roofing in their emergency supplies.
We opened up the roof on the house for an addition and got it dried back in very fast with that product.
That is "breeze bracing". Take a look at how a coastal code house in Florida is built if you want to see a wind code.
I would not be surprised if other states started tip toeing through the Simpson catalog too. I imagine insurance companies will be the driving force. They are getting a pretty good look at how well the Fla wind code actually performs in a storm. I know after Charley and Wilma it wasn't hard to pick out the new houses from the rubble of the old ones.
Leave it Fairfax County..........
Runnerguy
Jim,
That is nearly identical to what we do for seismic bracing. I did some research a few years ago and read everything I could get my hands on. The APA had the best info and its free.
There was one report that showed two identical houses in CA I think following the Northridge earthquake. An architect (if I'm remembering) correctly had bought both and was going to retrofit them for the seismic requirements. He only got one house done, and it was basically just sheathed. That house had very little damage but the other house fell apart.
So sheathing with ply/osb does the trick in most cases, but the more windows you have and "perforations" the tighter the nailing and or holddowns.
I should take a picture of the last house we framed to show you the engineers shearwall requirements. It was a fair amount, but not too bad.