Hello. Is there an easy way for making heads or tails of window and door size numbers. ex. a 3050 window is 36×60 and a 6060 is 72×72. A 30 door is 36″ but what is a 28 door, 28″? I don’t see any patten to go by.
Can anyone recommend a chart for someone like me who is not the sharpest tool in the shed to use.
As always, Thanks.
Replies
As I understand it, the first digit is the number of feet and the second digit is the additional inches. In your example, the "30" would be three feet (or 36 inches) and no additional inches. The "50" is five feet (or 60 inches) and no additional inches.
Thanks Terry, it all makes sense now.What a blessing this site is along with all of you guys.
Terry is right, it's feet and inches.
A 3 X 68 door is 3' 0" X 6' 8".
Thanks Heck I got it now.
28 means two feet eight inches or 32 inch
its always in feet and inches dont know why do you also know that if its a 36 inch you need to frame it at 38 inches? those are the actual door and window sizes not the size you need you framing to be
Took a new job one time and one of the first things I saw was the dummies framed 30 68 doors 32inch rough opening reading the doors as 30 inches, after they had been telling me how this place was for a lady in a wheelchair and how much handicaped stuff we had to consider. I was yelling on my second day of a new job. Worked there 2 weeks and split I dont need to be associated with dem yahoos
Thanks Danno, I knew about the rough opening needing to be larger than the actual dimension, I just was not sure about the way they numbered the doors and windows. I got it now. I could see where it might be tough getting a 36" door into a 32" r.o.
I hope they learned from that one.Thanks Again.
Thats why I split real fast from that place because I dont think they would ever learn let alone care. That just got me thinking about back then and I get all fired up I couldnt belive guys who been doing it 10-15 years longer than me could know so little, It was one thing after another with those idiots, after the third day they all started asking me to lead them, well the pay wasnt even close for that and I didnt want to be associated with people who worked like them. Sorry about the rant glad I could help, usually most questions are already answered by the time I get around to reading them.
I don't blame you, I would have done the same. Thanks Again Danno.
"usually most questions are already answered by the time I get around to reading them"
Yeah, same here. So I just go ahead and post a comment anyway, something like this one. Gives me something to do.
I went to estimate some painting once and the panel doors were hung upside down. Go figure that one! Needless to say, I was no longer interested in working for that contractor. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
>> and the panel doors were hung upside down.<<
I was working on a H4H project once and a doctor, who had been around for a while as a volunteer, finally decided he was ready to take the plunge and hang a raised panel, bifold door ---- all by himself. This fellow was a great pediatrician, but had no confidence in his "building abilities".
I came back in about an hour and found the doctor beaming at "his" door. It operated flawlessly and the gaps around it were beautifully even.
I was tempted not tell him that it was upside down.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Those 68" door heights are going to look awful low...even to regular people. In my first decade of carpentry, it was common to make the second story a bit shorter...they finished the ceilings at 7' 6". We used to precut the stack of studs to 7' 2". I looked down and the sawman had the entire stack cut at 72" !!!!That was going to be one very low second story ceiling! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's the thing they got the 6'8" part right, now do you see why I had to yell, they just never put any thought into anything. I'm sure we all had our run ins with guys like them, being a good carpenter you really have to think and those hacks upset me so much because it makes the rest of us look stupid
Where are you getting these numbers from that doesn't give you the name of the window that you are using?
A 30 door is 36" but what is a 28 door, 28"?
Where did that come from also? A door should either be marked 30" or 2' 6".
Hello Joe, The numbers come from an architect I should not have used. One of the doors on my blueprint is marked "30" and another door is marked "28". There are no window or door "names" to go by. When I asked the architect about all the missing specs. she said, "your builder will figure that out".
It's not uncommon for architects to generically assign a window size and let the builder work out the details of who the supplier is. A decision like that might take weeks or months for some clients and stall the drawing and design process significantly. I don't ever remember framing one for a builder that had the manufacturer specs on the plan. One of our requirements to start a frame was to get a rough opening list from the builder. The archy is right on this call. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I stand corrected. Thanks Jim.
blow... since you're working off architectural plans.. that means they are to scale
even architects get confused on terminology and standards
if she called out 28.. go to the window and scale it to make sure you and her are both understanding the terminolgy she intends
if it scales out at 28" then i'd assume she means 28"
if it scales out at 32" then i'd assume she means 2/8
in any case it's sloppy work
after you determine what she wants... then get your window & door mfr's catalog and find out what the MANUFACTURER wants for Rough Openings
every one is just different enough to get into trouble
edit: window and door selection should be part of the discussion with the architect and once determined then she should have included a "Window & Door" Schedule
the schedule ideally would have a key for every door & window, a quanitity, a model number, and the mfr's RO
at minimum the schedule would have a KEY & a size for each one, if the windows/doors were still generic
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/22/2008 2:04 pm ET by MikeSmith
The only problem with that is I have seen most blueprints with a discaimer, somewhere, that these drawings may not be to scale!
Fun, then you have to use judgement like jim allen said.
Scaling for me is not an option for windows and doors. If they weren't on the plans for some strange reason, the GC is going to give me the RO's and that's it. Scaling a plan is useless for something important. If it was a trimmed opening maybe.
Joe Carola
Yer right Joe. Scaling seems to be 'dammed if you do, dammed if you don't'.
Seems every time I ask an architect something they don't know the answer to, they tell me to just scale the plans... like I'm a moron for not thinking of that myself.
And everytime a piece of information is missing... and I scale... they act like I'm a moron for scaling the prints and not calling them.
Can't win on that one. Either that... or I'm a moron. ;)View Image
Seems every time I ask an architect something they don't know the answer to, they tell me to just scale the plans... like I'm a moron for not thinking of that myself.
Can't win on that one. Either that... or I'm a moron. ;)
Brian,
That particular Architect is the moron since he/she can't put numbers on plans that they get paid to draw.Joe Carola
That's the way I see it Joe. I paid a good penny for something other than a sketch I could have done on my own using Power Point.
I'll just chalk it up as a good learning experience.
Maybe it's a good thing i'm having to dig a lot of this stuff up myself.
Power point? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
joe.... i only said to scale them to see which terminology she was using
if she called out 28...... you can certainly tell by scaling if she meant 28" or 2/8
and you can always check scale by comparing a dimension to the scale... c'mon
if she dimensioned a wall with her dimension arrows from frame to frame at 40' and it scales to 38' then you know the drawing is NOT to SCALE
if it scales , it isMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ya know? I hear that we are gonna change to this new way of measuring stuff..it's called the "Metric System" ( google it even) and WHEN WE DO...we'll never have these kinda problems!
I can't wait!
Seriously, that forward slash/ and or hash " marks can be illegible on some print copies, if they still do the copy of a copy of a copy for the last guy to look at interior millwork and stuff.
I always scaled everything anyway, just because thats what I was taught to do.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
joe.... i only said to scale them to see which terminology she was using
if she called out 28...... you can certainly tell by scaling if she meant 28" or 2/8
Mike,
I could care less what the scale said when it comes to windows and doors because I'm not going to even waste my time. I'm going to call the GC or Architect myself and ask because it's not my job to figure out what size the windows are. I want the rough openings no matter what any scale says even though I will not scale a window and door.
Even if I did scale and it was closer to 2'8" which is 32", what does that tell me, nothing. That to me doesn't give me the correct RO. That doesn't mean the RO is 32". Means nothing.
and you can always check scale by comparing a dimension to the scale... c'mon
if she dimensioned a wall with her dimension arrows from frame to frame at 40' and it scales to 38' then you know the drawing is NOT to SCALE
True, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about getting RO's for windows and doors and they can't possibly be scaled and then framed that way without someone giving you a RO.Joe Carola
" could care less what the scale said when it comes to windows and doors because I'm not going to even waste my time. I'm going to call the GC or Architect myself and ask because it's not my job to figure out what size the windows are. I want the rough openings no matter what any scale says even though I will not scale a window and door."That's very true Joe because you are wearing the framer's hat. The framer should not be scaling and deciding the rough openings or manufacturer. However, this thread was started by the "builder". From that reference point, the suggestion to scale a window to understand the number coding makes perfect sense. If I am the builder or the window supplier, I would take the generic numbering system used by the architect/designer and start my window manufacturing takeoff. Typically, the numbers on the plans indicate standard lite sizes as supplied by the glass manufacturers in America. They are usually not the frame size. This is done so each different manufacturer can build his frame and sash around stock sizes. It results in different rough openings depending on material and window style. So, Mikes suggestion was aimed at the window rep or builder but not at the framer. I agree: the framer does now scale anything to find his rough openings! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You are also right Mike. I often scale things to verify that the scaled drawing I'm working with is correct. I also use a variety of different intuitive tests to "get inside the archys" head and figure out how they are doing things and notating things. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you would scale a window and use the scale to create a rough opening...unless you knew the windows were going to be custom built after your rough frame. Yes, I've worked on jobs where something like that happened in a limited fashion. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hello Joe, The numbers come from an architect I should not have used. One of the doors on my blueprint is marked "30" and another door is marked "28".
If it says 30" and 28", that means it's a 30" door and a 28" door.
There are no window or door "names" to go by. When I asked the architect about all the missing specs. she said, "your builder will figure that out".
That's not true around here. I get plans with the make and model number right on them. There either on the floor plan, front, back and side views and also a window and door schedule.
There have been some occasions where the HO wasn't sure and is decided in the filed so that we can frame the RO's, but 99% of the time there right on the plans as they should be.
Unless you told her not to put them, it should've been discussed and she is either lazy or just doesn't know what she's doing.Joe Carola
Joe the plans read 3 0 door and 2 8 door. The 30 door is going from the garage to inside the home so I am assuming it is a standard 36" door. The 28 door in an interior door so 32". Well since this was our first go around with architects and blueprints (which was made very clear by us) we now feel that she could have looked out for us a little more and offered more input of what would and would not work.My wife and I made it very clear that we needed help with the addition. For example, I drive a full size truck and my wife a suburban, when she did the layout of the garage she left the tire stop on the slab at 17 feet to the garage door, needless to say my truck will not fit in the garage without removing the trailer hitch and the suburban will just clear by a few inches. The slab was poured to the prints and now we have that problem. I guess you live and learn. Don't get me wrong she is a very kind person and we wish her the best but we just think she could have helped a little more.I guess it is good in a way that all that stuff is not spec'ed out. That is what sends me here over and over and trust me I have learned a lot from all of you guys. Thanks to that.
It sounds like you needed a builder in your professional bag of tools. Its a little unreasonable that you would avoid every problem if this is your first go round as a builder. Wouldn't you agree? The first time I built a garage with a curb in it, I screwed it up the other way and made it too far back. It was basically useless and was nothing more than a trip hazard. I could have filled it in with a second pour but I just learned to live with it. My Chief Architect program specifies the windows and doors like this : 2440 DH. That means : it's a double hung. The width always come first. It is a 2' 4" width. The height is 4' 0". That is the standard way of labeling the window sizes. Exterior doors are also specified that way. The interior doors are also specced that way. But....just because that is "normal" doesn't mean an architect couldn't choose a different way. They could list it in inches only. That would be a non-standard method though. One of the suggestions that I've given to all my interested carpenters is to go the the bookstore and buy an architects book. Get one like they would use at the college level. You'd be amazed at how much better you will instantly become in deciphering plans. You can't blame the architects for your own inexperience, even if you did plead for help. The kind of help you need is a regular consultation with a qualified builder onsite. That will cost you 50 to 75 per hour and add a few thousand dollars to your house but a house isn't exactly an easy thing to cut your teeth on. And no...my Chief Architect plan does not specify a particular manufacturer. I could download a Marvin Cad block if I wanted and everything would be sized to Marvin but it's just not worth it. The plans are drawn to indicate intent. The specification sheet details all the specs.What does your specification sheet tell you about your window and door sizes? What manufacturer does it specify? Generally, this type of information is not put on the plan view because it clutters it up in a needless manner. If we start insisting that the window manufacturer's name is put on the plan view, all of a sudden everyone will want the flooring, the underlayment, the shingles: color, style and size. The windows will have to specify the type of glass, cladding, hardware, interior finish, etc. The door details alone might take up fifteen lines of specification detail. All of these specs are usually listed in separate tables or schedules. Experienced builders just do it from their heads. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim thanks for your input. You are probably correct,I should not expect that all my problems be avoided. But I would expect when I ask an architect to draw me up a garage that my vehicles could fit inside of, that that's what I would get.I would expect that they ask, "what type of vehicles do you own". Maybe i'm wrong, maybe I should have said this is my vehicle build something around it.Maybe I should ask this question. What should a set of plans include?BTW. Don't get me wrong, I think this is turning out to be a good thing for me.
"But I would expect when I ask an architect to draw me up a garage that my vehicles could fit inside of, that that's what I would get."I know I'm going to sound argumentitive here so I'll apologize in advance. YOU DID GET WHAT YOU WANTED. You didn't specify that you also wanted your hitch to fit in too LOL! Just kidding with you. There are different levels of architectural drawings. Every commission does not necessarily include detailed drawings of everything and some of the dimensioning is deliberately left out and the normal disclaimer "verify in field" takes precedence. A skilled concrete sub contractor would have immediately told you "we don't normally put the bumper at 17'. We typically put them at blah, blah, blah". Also, as the builder superintendent, you need to look at and verify EVERY detail and dimension on YOUR plan. You are looking for mistakes by the Architect. They might have made a goof or misinterpreted your instructions. An experienced builder would not let someone put a bumper in at 15' but you would have. Now you are experieced LOL! Be careful though, there are many more "OOPS" in the pipeline. For instance, I've altered many a bathroom door because the builder didn't want their top sticking into a door casing. Some builders don't care and don't see a problem with that. Its a personal call. Some builders only put bumpers in for cars and not trucks. It's a personal call. A set of plans can very greatly especially in the detail given. The price paid for a set of drawings for a house can vary from $2 per foot to $10 per foot. Of course, the more expensive set would have more detail. Personally, if I'm building, I'd opt for the $2 set because I only need a conceptual drawing and no details. I only need the minimum to get a permit. You might need more but maybe not. You might be able to function with the $2 set better now because you will now begin to look forward to the "gotchas" and avoid them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No problem Jim. It will be a good learning experience and as you stated more than likely not the last.
BTW, what did you mean about the "top sticking into the door casing"?
you know... the countertop is always bigger than the vanity casenext thing you know, you're notching the door casing or moving the doorsame thing with doors hitting the toilet....
ooopsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel Mike, I hope it's not a train coming.
Edited 6/23/2008 3:26 pm ET by blownonfuel
LoL! That's a good question.A typical bathroom might be exactly 5' wide because the tub is installed in the end. The toilet goes next. The vanity is often by the door. Most bathrooom doors are 2-4. (That's 2' 4"!). If the framer keeps the door casing (2 1/4") tight to the wall, almost any size vanity and countertop will fit nicely with no notches in to the top or casing. However, everyone wants bigger doors, bigger casings and bigger tops. All of these elements will not fit in a 60" bathroom. It has been my experience over the years that everyone seems to want to put wider casings, wider doors and not encroach at all onto the countertop. It's a noble goal but something has to give. In this situation, a 1" error in your thinking will cause you to be notching one element or the other. So, instead of cutting a slot in your garage door for your trailer hitch, you'll be cutting a slot in your casing for the granite top...unless you figure everything out in FULL SCALE. This isn't an architect thing...it's an onsite builder thing. Good framers will solve these issues for you or good superintendents will be johnny on the spot and prevent them. You have chosen to be the johnny on the spot superintendent so now it's up to you to prevent all of these glitches. You can't rely on the architect to solve everything unless you've commissioned him to give you a detailed elevation drawing of every wall in the house and complete schedules for every component. I don't think you've paid for all of that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"So, instead of cutting a slot in your garage door for your trailer hitch".
That's a good one Jim, LOL!!!!
"So, instead of cutting a slot in your garage door for your trailer hitch".
Gee, and I thought that using the trailer tongue to hold the door open a bit was a Comal County "dog house" all this time <g>
Hows the weather down San Marcos way? Any rain in the last 6 weeks? It rained about 31 ounces here on Saturday, and then only on the one intersection.
Brings back memories of reading a tap with sweat near-constantly burning the corner of your eyes, of having to check sweat-smudged chalklines, of feeling so half-baked as to want to the oven timer to go off and finish the job . . . <not-at-all-nostalgic sigh>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac it's HOT!!!! Get this, just this very morning is was checking a fuse in my truck and dropped the little plastic fuse puller that comes in most vehicles. The fuse puller fell into a crack in the dirt that is probably 5 feet deep, I tried to dig it out but was afraid my truck would fall into it next.It has not rained in weeks, did I mention it's HOT!!!!
Maybe I haven't been out enough but I've thought the weather has been fantastic. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's my day job that has me spoiled Jim, I used to work out in the heat but now i'm in the AC all day.
It has not rained in weeks, did I mention it's HOT!!!!
Yeah, that was what I was afraid of.
Should we feel sorry for poor Jim, up in Roundrock? This wil lbe his first full, Central Texas summer with only Michigan to compare to?
I've been and done and fide out in the a/c wimpy old fart that I've become; he's still got all of those "trade" reflexes, and not but an hour away from you (which is also scary, he's not but 90 minutes from here, or about as long as to drive from his locale to yours <g>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You can't rely on the architect to solve everything unless you've commissioned him to give you a detailed elevation drawing of every wall in the house and complete schedules for every component.
I don't think you've paid for all of that.
But, ought to have gotten enough that the bathroom walls are not dimensioned to exactly 5'-0", or if they are, then it's noted as finish to finish dimensioning.
Which is not my preference at all, as you (the archy) are putting the decision of how to allow for wallboard, CBU, tile, etc. plus a 60" tub, to affect how to set the walls down, especially if one or more of those walls winds up being aligned to some feature of the structure of it all. (Yet another reason to show/specify a "wet" wall at the head of the tub, and allow the framer to use his art and have a place to "bury" any as built ot in-the-real-world changes neatly; IMHO.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Actually, the vast majority of the plans I've framed from show all dimensions from finish wall surface to finish wall surface. I have never seen anything detailed in the tub areas. In the good ole days before fiberglass insert tubs, we rough framed the bathroom at 60 1/2". That would allow the steel tub to be easily set, and the wall coverings would easily go over the flanges. That would put the finished bathroom size at 59.5" instead of the called for 5'. The tub area would have a smaller room yet. That type of minutia is never covered by the architects in "normal" residential drawings. Its kinda like lumber sizes..a 2x4 isn't 2" x 4" and a 5' bathroom isn't five feet, it's 4' 11 1/2". Any experienced framer and builder will know that. Sometimes, for whatever reason, an experienced builder will want something more specific. For instance, when we framed the 5' baths like that and we found out that there was fiberglass standup units going it, it caused problems. On those, we frame them in exactly at 5' in the rough and usually the tub is there and we temp set it. It's that type of experience that I'm talking about. Newbies in the building business need that type of minutia on the plans. Old fartz like me already know and make the adjustment. If I had a dollar for every detail I've skipped on the plans, I'd make Bill Gates look like a pauper. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's that type of experience that I'm talking about. Newbies in the building business need that type of minutia on the plans. Old fartz like me already know and make the adjustment
No lie. And I can't count on you going over the plans to mark up what the slab as poured or foundation beam as set it, either, sad to say.
I have to guess that it's derrel and his other brother Darryl are framing at best . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I don't see any patten to go by
Well, you have hit on the pattern, it is FI or f/i for feet and inches.
So, 18" is 16 in the notation, 28" is 24, and those "common" numbers can read odd.
This is even better if they codified that early on when they computerized. That can get you very odd looking numbers like 2168 for a 2'-10" x 6'-8" door. This can require an eagle eye on order sheets.