Hi folks,
I’m renovating a house. The kitchen is located at the very back of the house, and I’d like to put 3 small windows along the back wall above the kitchen countertop. The roof slopes such that it’s going to be a tight fit getting the windows and traditional size headers in place and still have adequate room between the counterop and the bottom of the windows.
I plan to ask my inspector’s opinion before I make a move, but I’d like to do my homework first and research all available alternatives. I also have an engineer on hand, and I’ll be asking him as well.
What are my options when it comes to headers? Someone said something to me once about steel headers(?). I need something thin but strong (and likely to be sanctioned by the inspector).
Thanks!
Frank
Replies
No way to give you any help without a lot more info.
Like the width of the ROs, width of the house, loading requirements, stick framed vs. trusses roof framing, one or two story house, how much depth you have to work with, etc.
A: No blondes.
Ditto BossHog's reply...without more specifics, a header size cannot be calculated.
However, generally speaking, you could install a flitch beam (wood/steel sandwich) or a C-channel or back to back steel angles..
There are multiple ways to header an opening...
I just recently spotted your response - thank you for the mention of the alternative header ideas! I'll mention these to the engineer (if he doesn't bring them up himself).
Plan on installing a short section of cabinets against the ceiling, and use them to hide a header. Makes the windows a bit shorter, but that can also be a design element.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
frank.. you may only need a pair of 2x4's.. or you might need steel
assuming the wall supports ONLY the roof, you will probably get by on the skimpy side
i would think that worst case , you might need say a 3x3 steel angle, which could be framed right on top of the double plate and take up maybe 1/4"... in which case your widows could frame right to the bottom of the bottom plate..
another constraint will be the soffit and fascia of the roof overhang....
the vertical distance between the bottom of the fascia and the top of the plate will probably be your truye constraint in this case
now, if this header is supporting two floor and a roof.. you will need some serious support material..
but as you can see by all of the responses, the code and the engineering are what will really determine your options.. my illustration is sort of a best case scenario
You said small windows... If you have 1, 2, or 3 studs between the windows, the span of your header will be only as wide as the rough opening for the window. These are called stud pockets, and often make it easier to trim out the ganged windows too.
Some Qs (a few repeats from above): Is this a gable end wall? What is above the kitchen - another room? Which way do the joists run in the kitchen ceiling - parallel or perpendicular to the wall in question? Is the wall in question studded with 2x4s or what? What is the rough opening width for the windows you want to install?
Edited 1/23/2006 5:13 pm ET by Matt
FastEddie, Mike, Matt, you folks are the best!
Sorry, I forgot to mention that this is a one story house. Also, this is not a gable end wall. The ceiling joists run in parallel to the wall in question. The wall in question is studded with 2x4's, 16" OC.
Here's what I've got to work with: There's 81" from the top of the OSB to the bottom of the double top plate. The kitchen countertops will be a standard 36" high. I'm not sure yet what the code is in my area concerning the amount of space that's necessary between the countertops and the bottom of the windows.
It seems to me that the (maximum) size of the window (and hence the RO) will be determined by the size of the headers that I must use.
Note also that I did not expect to hammer out the details here in the forum. Since this does not appear to be a textbook case, then I'm trying to cast as wide a net as possible for a solution - ie I'm brainstorming at this point. Again, I'll have everything checked out by the inspector before I commit.
Here's a little secret. I've been working closely with a very talented carpenter throughout this last year (the "talented" evaluation comes from my engineer). We work together on Saturday, and I follow his instructions throughout the week. I've replaced 100% of the floor in this house (joists and all), as well as all of the interior walls. I'm not fast, but I'm careful and have a deep reverence for the craft. This arrangement has worked out fine - until recently. It seems my carpenter likes to take a nip (as many of us do), and then get in his truck and put the pedal to the metal (uh, oh). Yep, he's lost his license for a year. What's more, he went up to NY (I'm in NC) to work on a house that was only to take a couple of months. His mother died while he was up there. While dealing with her death, he had a dispute with his crew and they left to come back to NC. So he's got this house in NY that he needs to finish - but without a crew to help him and a license to drive. So, I don't know when he's coming back. That means I've got to finish my house (probably) on my own. Fortunately we're almost ready for the framing inspection.
Probably more than you want to hear,
Frank
"this is not a gable end wall. The ceiling joists run in parallel to the wall in question."
That doesn't make sense. Did you mean they run PERPENDICULAR to the wall?
You still didn't give us the width of the house, so we could come up with some rough loading for the header.
And giving us a rough window width you're after would also be helpful. If you're only after a relatively small window, the solution would be much different than if you want a 4' wide garden window, or a pair of casements.
So more info would still be helpful
As you walk the roads of life, no matter what your goal. Keep your eye upon the doughnut, and not upon the hole.
>> That doesn't make sense. <<
??? Does a roof have to have a gable end? What about hipped roofs? Do hipped roofs have gable ends? This house employs hipped roof construction - I think you would call it "cross hipped", or maybe "double cross hipped". It's in the shape of a "U", with a pyramidal main section and two cross-hipped arms. That's as close as I can describe it verbally.
>> Did you mean they run PERPENDICULAR to the wall? <<
No, they run PARALLEL to the wall.
>> You still didn't give us the width of the house... <<
OK. The wall in question is at the back of one of the arms of the "U", and it's 16 feet wide.
>> And giving us a rough window width you're after would also be helpful... <<
When I said in my first message that I was thinking of 3 small windows, that's pretty much what I meant. I'm looking more towards the simpler, less complicated solution.
You seem to be quick to cop an attitude, and slow to give us any info that would actually help you. When looking for free advice, you need to try it the other way around.
I like long walks. Especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. [Fred Allen]
>> You seem to be quick to cop an attitude... <<
If you're referring to my remark about the hipped vs. gable-ended roofs, that was an honest question - I was really interested in an answer.
Generally, I tend to shape my responses according to the sender's tone - which in your case I would call very direct. I assumed I could do the same. You don't come across as the sensitive type, but I'll make a note of that in the future.
Maybe I took your post the wrong way. When you said "Does a roof have to have a gable end?" I thought you were being a smart-a$$. Sorry if I was mistaken on that.From your descroption, I'm a little concerned about what's going on. If this is a stick framed roof, there likely isn't much load on it. But if it's a trussed roof, you may have a window under a girder truss. That would definitely complicate things.I'm also still wanting to know what you're thinking when you say "3 small windows". That could mean 3 windows mulled together, or 3 separate ones with support between them. And a small window to you might not be a small one to me. Could we come up with an assumption to start with? Like you're thinking of 3 windows, roughly 24" wide, with support between each one? (Or whatever)
Fat people are harder to kidnap.
Boss,
>> Maybe I took your post the wrong way. ... Sorry if I was mistaken on that. <<
No problem. Thanks for your attention to this.
>> If this is a stick framed roof, there likely isn't much load on it. But if it's a trussed roof, you may have a window under a girder truss. That would definitely complicate things. <<
This is a stick built house. It does not use a truss roof.
>> I'm also still wanting to know what you're thinking when you say "3 small windows". <<
I'm now thinking maybe 2 2'x3' horizontal sliding window units, separated by a stud? The reason I haven't been more specific with a size is that I wasn't sure just how much vertical space I had to work with. My impulse here has been to seek what header options are possibly available, then look at the resulting window space that's left over - I would then find a window (or windows) to fit within that space.
Thanks again,Frank
If your roof is stick framed, and your thinking about windows roughly 2' wide with cripples between them, you won't need much of a header. I'd suggest at looking into using a ripped LVL. (ie: rip a 14" LVL down to the depth you need)The LVL would be a lot easier to work with than steel, and is readily available. I don't know the loading in your are, but you might be able to get by with a 3 or 4" tall header.You might ask your local supplier what brand they sell, and have them check with their supplier about designing these. They should be willing to provide you with a book that has the design properties in it so your engineer can hand-calc them.Let us know how things turn out, would ya?
Big doesn't necessarily mean better. Sunflowers aren't better than violets.
I dunno Boss ... I didn't sense an attitude in his responses. He just seems direct. And probably a little PO'd cuz the Panthers got beat.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"I didn't sense an attitude in his responses. "
Duly noted. I apparently just took it wrong, as I said to him in my last post.
Heart attacks. God's revenge for eating his animal friends.
Good for you. Next we'll work on your choice of tractors. :)
And I agree ... even though he is flexible in his design parameters, it would help if he gave a little more info, like approximate window sizes.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
>> Here's what I've got to work with: There's 81" from the top of the OSB to the bottom of the double top plate. << You mean 81" from the OSB floor sheathing to the bottom of the double top plate? That's pretty short... Are you saying that the ceiling is 7' tall?
The kitchen countertops will be a standard 36" high. I'm not sure yet what the code is in my area concerning the amount of space that's necessary between the countertops and the bottom of the windows. << I live in NC and am very familiar with residential building codes, although not as much with elect and plumb. There is no code >> concerning the amount of space that's necessary between the countertops and the bottom of the windows << however you gotta think about the requirements for outlets in the kitchen counter area. I'm not positive what the exact requirements are for kitchen outlets is - it's NEC2005 - I believe that it's min every 4' and 2' from each end - I'm sure someone will correct that if I'm wrong:-). A sink or cooktop counts as an end.
So, if you are putting outlets below the windows and above the countertops, assuming the countertops have 4" backsplash you need the bottom of the rough opening to be 48" high if you want to have a ~2.5" casing apron and an outlet below the window. You can get it tighter, but you have to plan carefully.
Re the thing about the gable end wall, hip roof, etc, the deal is that since it is a hip roof, you do have the roof load being transferred through rafters to the wall in question.
Really though we can't answer your question about header sizing until you make up your mind what size of windows you want to use and weather you intend to install stud pockets between them, or maybe you will have the windows mulled together at the window factory? Anyway, I'm gonna tell you what it says in the NC 2002 residential code book which is based on the IRC2000 1&2 family dwelling code. Found in tables R502.5(1) & (2) for a header supporting a roof and ceiling for a 20' wide building (the min shown), SPF lumber, the max length for headers is: two 2x4 - 3'7", two 2x6 - 5'8". Again, we don't have all the info needed to directly answer your question directly.
>> Fortunately we're almost ready for the framing inspection. << ???? Do you have your electrical, plumb and HVAC already roughed in? Those are required before framing inspection. Framing after rough-ins some times isn't such a great situation... and it sounds like you are still framing???
Thanks Matt!
>> That's pretty short... Are you saying that the ceiling is 7' tall? <<
Yep. It slopes to 7' at the wall. But it's a pretty steep slope.
>> Do you have your electrical, plumb and HVAC already roughed in? Those are required before framing inspection. Framing after rough-ins some times isn't such a great situation... and it sounds like you are still framing??? <<
Yeah that was dumb. You're right, the framing inspection comes first.
I'm also meeting with the engineer in a couple of days to discuss this header issue. Nontheless I'm really glad that I've had a chance to get some input from you guys on just what options *may* be available to me before I talk to him.
>> So, if you are putting outlets below the windows and above the countertops, assuming the countertops have 4" backsplash you need the bottom of the rough opening to be 48" high if you want to have a ~2.5" casing apron and an outlet below the window. <<
So this leaves me 81"-48"=33" for the window and header, right? So what about a couple of 2'x3' horizontal, sliding units - with a stud in between? There's also a company here locally that can custom build some vinyl units pretty reasonably; vertically speaking, how large do you think can we go, considering the header issues which have been mentioned? Or do you think it'll look goofy if we push the window height closer towards the ceiling?
>> Re the thing about the gable end wall, hip roof, etc, the deal is that since it is a hip roof, you do have the roof load being transferred through rafters to the wall in question. <<
I understand. But, all other things being equal, the load would be significantly less than if we had a typical gable end wall, right?
Thanks again!Frank
Edited 1/25/2006 3:25 pm ET by FrankFromNC
>> Yeah that was dumb. You're right, the framing inspection comes first. <<
No - complete framing -> Rough-ins & rough-in inspections -> framing inspection ->insulation -> etc
>>So what about a couple of 2'x3' horizontal, sliding units - with a stud in between? << You mean 2' tall right? Normally the width is given first. Yea, that would work but you may need more than 1 stud between - that is where your engineer comes in. Also, just about any vinyl windows ganged together are going to be easier to install and trim out with at least 2 stud pockets. For starters think about how the vinyl window flanges are going to nail up on the side-by side windows. If you use 3 studs (1 king and 2 jacks) in between the windows, you really don't even need an engineer - just a code book.
>> vertically speaking, how large do you think can we go, considering the header issues which have been mentioned? << I have given you all the info I can without the specifics we have asked for. I gave you a rough sill height that I know will work as I have used it a number of times. At this point I think you can figure it our yourself - you have what you need.
>>I understand. But, all other things being equal, the load would be significantly less than if we had a typical gable end wall, right? << No - a gable end wall is always going to have less load on it unless you have a structural ridge, and even in that case there would be a post (etc) under the ridge to transfer the weight down to the foundation. In your situation, since you have the bottom end of the rafters resting on the top of your wall, the wall is bearing a significant portion of the roof load.
BTW Per the code stuff I quoted you, if you want a max window width of 3' using other than 2x? lumber for a header is only necessary if you want to press it for the absolute tallest window possible - and even then other than 2x? material may not gain you much of anything - all this is provided you use the stud pockets. In most traditional house styles, you can only place the windows so close up to the ceiling before it starts looking funny. Same thing applies to the exterior, although some have the window up to the freeze board but almost never up to the soffit.
Edited 1/25/2006 10:35 pm ET by Matt
Frank,
You might be able to overcome the electrical outlet problem by putting an outlet strip on the bottoms of the cabinets. I personally don't care for it (too much bending over), but if you need space, that may be one way to overcome a problem.
Another thought that I had was, What about putting a small reverse gable roof right over where the windows go, to open it up and put some fixed glass up higher? If you are looking for more light in the room, that may help. It will cost a few bucks for the glass and some structural/design work, but if the light's important to you, then it might be worth it. For that matter, have you considered a skylight?
Good luck.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construiction - Rentals
Don,
Thanks for the suggestions! Indeed the reverse gable idea would be great for bringing in more light, but at this point I should probably try to work within the existing structure, if possible. I've neither the time nor experience to tackle such a task (maybe my next project, if my carpenter returns).
Take care,
Frank
Matt,
>> Yeah that was dumb. You're right, the framing inspection comes first. <<
Sorry, I meant what you meant. I'm banging out these messages during my day job <g>.
>> You mean 2' tall right? Normally the width is given first. <<
Thanks.
>> Yea, that would work but you may need more than 1 stud between - that is where your engineer comes in. ........ <<
Thank you very much for all of your help and suggestions!
Take care,Frank
Steel be the way to go. In a 2x6 wall I have used 4x4 square tubing as a header 1/4 wall thickness spaning 48" surpasses the load capacity of the usual wood header. Bending specs found in a machinery handbook should sastify the inspector. Larger spans could us a 5 inch wide flange I beam or a 4x6 box tubing.
Thank you very much for these ideas!