hi guys,
i’m new here…i own a property maintenance company so i’m not a construction pro just DIY’er. Here’s what i have at the moment. i’m installing a pond and rebuilding the block walls in front of my own home. The previous owner had left a drawing showing the location of 2 buried wires that feed my garage for 110 and for my compressor,they weren’t where they were drawn and i cut them with my skidloader. i have asked 12 different electric supply houses and electricians to help ID this wire and no one knows. I’m in st. louis and thought i was told long ago the it was early 1900 St. Louis street lamp wiring. There 2 sperate black cables about the size of a car battery cable. Each cable has 4 silver wires, small like 22ga and bare, that spiral around the outside of it . all this is buried underground. the silver colored wires look like they are brand new even though they have been underground for at least 10 years. on the inside of the black sheathing there is only 1 copper wire in each sheathing. it is fairly thick , maybe a little smaller than the diameter of a straw. it looks like it is sealed in a clear plastic that was then sheathed with the black cover. can anyone help ID it please…i need to splice it together and bury it. i can’t update it because it runs under about 50ft of asphalt to my detached garage, i tryed to attach pics ..hope they came through
TIA
steve
Ground Effects LLC
Replies
I am not sure what it is and the pictures don't help.
But I have any guessing that it is some kind of direct bury shielded HV primary wire.
I don't know the details, but I know that cable vaguely like that is used for such things. Look at a drop from the distribution lines that go under ground and feed a subdivision will all underground wiring.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
wait till somebody near by starts screaming about their sevic to something is cut off ot the utility crews show and start proweling....
guess you didn't anybody call before ya dug....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Have you cut off a few inches of one of the wires to take it in for sizing?
Presumably you have some sort of (hopefully) direct-burial cable. The only thing you really need is some more direct-burial cable of the same gauge, and some suitable splices. (This sort of cable generally CAN be spliced undergound, without any sort of box.)
You suggest that this is a 120V service out to the garage. If so, one of the insulated wires is the "hot", and the other the neutral -- you'll need to get them paired back up the same way when you splice them. If this is 240V service then you don't need to worry too much about getting the wires paired correctly, but there needs to be a separate neutral wire somewhere (and the small wires don't count).
Note that "early 1900 street lamp wiring" would not have plastic insulation.
There are an infinite variety of wires out there; when folks 'salvage' stuff, anything is possible. For all we know, the stuff came from a cable car!
Let's look at how to properly repair it.
Joining it to a replacement length of new wire isn't a problem. Doing it 'right' can be a challenge. Let's walk through it.
Code, and good design, require that all wires be in the same conduit (pipe) or cable - not separate wires as you have. Personally, I am biased in digging as deep as you can - at least 30" - and running BIG pipe. At either end of the run, use 'sweeps' to enter handholes through the bottom.
"Handholes" are similar in size to 5-gallon buckets, and have reasonably strong lids. If you are placing them in an area where they will be driven on, you'll need a concrete handhole with a steel cover. However made, they are NOT waterproof; indeed, they are often set on a layer of gravel to help them to drain.
Within the handhole, you make your connections with some manner of watertight wire nut, then make sure the connector is pointed so as to drain.
When you bury the pipe, it might help to place a warning tape of some sort halfway down the trench. It also helps if the pipe is bedded in, and covered with, a sand or geavel that is of a different color than the earth around it. You're trying to give the future difgger a hint that thewre's something going on.
Code does not require that the wires be in conduit.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I'm in the middle of a move (so I don't have a book handy), but I seem to recall that the NEC most certainly DOES require that ALL conductors of a circuit - including any ground wires - be either in the same cable or the same conduit. The only exception might be for running them in 'free air,' which isn't the case here.
Well, then, why does "direct burial" cable exist?IIRC, code only requires that the wires be "protected". This generally implies that they are in conduit where they enter the ground (though other techniques qualify), but does not imply that the conduit must be continued to the far end, so long as its buried deep enough.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Edited 8/16/2009 12:26 am by DanH
DanH,
Well let me jump into the middle of this.
I'm thinking that Reno isn't saying the cable can't be directly buried. He is saying that the hot, neutral, and ground for the OP's garage and compressor are separated and that this is a problem.
With some exceptions, all circuit conductors must be in the same cable, raceway, or trench:
300.5(I) Conductors of the Same Circuit All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be installed in the same raceway or cable or shall be installed in close proximity in the same trench.
So I'm guessing that Reno is merely concerned that the OP's installation has the hot and neutral in 2 separated wires some distance apart.
Regards,
Jim x 3
It's been hard to quite comprehend all that the OP has said, but I never got the impression that the wires weren't in the same trench. Few people are going to did separate trenches for hot vs neutral.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I definitely got that impression. He cut thru a single copper wire. if they are all together, there would be two or three to see.The tiny white wire is shielding.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
He indicated he'd cut through two wires, IIRC. No clue as to whether the wires were tightly twisted together or just loosely associated in the trench.I've definitely seen direct-burial wire before where the wires were just laying in the trench together, with no common jacket or such.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I differ with you recollection of the NEC, but I am not in a position (and won't for the next week) to break out the codebook and check. I think that you must use either cable or conduit underground - not individual wires.
Often additional protection - for example, the use of Schedule 80 PVC - is required where the wires exit the ground. This is especially true if the location is considered 'subject to damage.' That's a separate issue.
Why do they make UF? Well, just because something is possible does not make it a smart choice. It's a pretty limited product, and one has to recognize the limitations. In the 'real world,' using UF seems to be a guarantee of future digging - and a future FH thread asking 'how can I get more out of it?' I suppose UF is useful for the light at the end of your driveway - but not much else IMO.
We get back to that old buggaboo, using the codebook as a design manual or instruction book. Contrary to popular practice, one is not supposed to use the book as a way to find the cheapest, laziest way to do something. Yet, many carry this to the opposite extreme, and act as if the code forbids your doing a better job. After all, the Yugo met the same codes as the swankest BMW - but folks were in no hurry to by that Serbian Speedster.
I apply the same logic to this thread. While the use of UF is allowed, it is rarely the best choice.
Did you not see where JimJim quoted the exact code?Says that they can be in the same trench.And Okonite that derating for multiple single wires in the same trench.http://www.okonite.com/engineering/single-conductor-underground-direct.htmlAs I said earlier I suspect that this is some version of shield HV cabling.Here is one type of shielded URD cable.http://www.okonite.com/Product_Catalog/section2/section2-pdfs/2-40.pdfAnd here is the reason for the sheilding.http://www.okonite.com/engineering/shielding.html"Definition of shieldingShielding of an electric power cable is the practice of confining the electric field of the cable to the insulation of the conductor or conductors. It is accomplished by means of strand and insulation shields.Functions of ShieldingA strand shield is employed to preclude excessive voltage stress on voids between conductor and insulation. To be effective, it must adhere to or remain in intimate contact with the insulation under all conditions. "This is for multi KV lines. That is why it not very commonly know about..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
When you're digging with a back hoe, it doesn't make much difference whether the cable is in conduit or not.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Depends on how you use the backhoe.When I had an excevator and was working between 2 sewer grinder pumps and I knew that there where feeds and outlets and electrical supplies, but everything I could find indicated that they where either out of the path or much deeper.Any way what I did in any questionable areas was to scrap the bucket backwards and with the angle low to the trench bottom. That way it would bounce over any obstruction.And everything I got out to check was a rock or tree roots.OTOH, it is for areas where you don't expect anything where you can catch and rip up a pipe or cable with knowing it untill you see it hanging from the bucket..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Doesn't look right for residential cable.
Does it say anything on the insulation jacket? Should be imprinted.
Jeff
Maybe...
http://www.bizrate.com/electrical-supplies/underground-electrical-wire/
SamT
morning guys,
thanks for taking the time to reply...first, i didn't call digrite as this is not a utility wire, i cut the 2 wires in half so i will need to mate the two halves (one copper wire and 4 silver wires) back together. thanks for the link to the wire sources ...i had googled alot of them but couldn't locate the wire type. i guess the fact that 12 different electric house/electricians couldn't ID the wire means it might not be in any catalog.
i have found a thrid cable entering the house that powers a dusk to dawn light out front. it's way up in a corner between the ceiling joists so i never really paid it any attention. it looks like there is a "romex" wire coming out of a metal junction box, the insulation is stripped off both wires and one of the wires is twisted to the big copper wire and taped ...the second wire looks like he twisted the 4 small wires together and used a big crimp to join it to the other "romex" wire...looks completely UNSAFE btw. i can only guess that the 4 wires together form the ground?
steve
>>i can only guess that the 4 wires together form the ground?
Return, not ground. May also be a ground, but still used as a return. Total amperage of the circuit is now determined by the current carrying capacity of the 4 or 8 small wires.
You need to go back to the supplying breaker panel and tell us what you find there before we can give any advice other than "Remove and replace."
SamT
ALWAYS call Digsafe before you dig! I'm surprised nobody has reamed you a new one for that gaffe, but glad you are still alive to ask about this.
go to the panel that feeds to the garage, open it, find the fuse that popped and study the wire there. Matter of fact, just keepaU hands out of the box and take a picture of it to post here.
I'm surprised you can't find any identifying stenciling on the wire sheathing.
And even if this does run through asphalt drive, there are ways to replace it. It is possible to fuse and fix, but if this is illegal and unsafe install to begin with, now is the time...
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
In most cases Dig Right does not mark for anything but contracted utilities.In my case that means that they did not do the small city water and sewer lines. And of course not any property owner lines.If he had it done in the past and knew where the public utility lines where there was not any real need to call them.But I do agree that it is always the better option. There could be something that they had missed in the past.And even if they missed it again then you are off the hook..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Here, they do private lines too, but there is a fee, whereas the utility pays them for locating theirs.Another option is to call for them on a free ute easement, meet the guy when he shows, and slip him a twenty to "spot this area over here too while you are at it."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The tiny white wire is shielding.
A smaller wire like that is usually signal tracing wire so you can find the main wire.
Another option is to call for them on a free ute easement, meet the guy when he shows, and slip him a twenty to "spot this area over here too while you are at it."
Recent location I.D.ing, guy shows up and marks out the utilities. I ask nicely if he would go around the side and locate the feed to the garage. I can't do that he says-might get in trouble. I didn't slip him a 20 but while we walked around the back to take a look at the deer in the yard I asked if he couldn't ground his probe as we proceeded.
The homowners fresh baked chocolate chips and my jovial bull #### ing might have done the trick.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 8/17/2009 6:49 am ET by calvin
Whatever it takes;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Right -- "Dig Right" or whatever will only locate public utilities, not private wiring. The wires in this case are private. Possibly someone could have been called (at some expense) to locate them if it was known they were in the wrong place, but the OP trusted the site plan to be accurate. (True, never a good thing to do.)Whether to call the locator service is a judgment call. In my case I'd have no concerns about digging in our back yard, since I know there are no utilities back there.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
""Dig Right" or whatever will only locate public utilities, not private wiring."Wrong again - as I explained, in New England, they regularly do private - for a $75 fee.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!