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I am building a new house in central Oregon and have pretty much decided on radiant hydronic heat for at least the first floor. All of the research on PEX tubing is causing me to wonder if I should use it for general plumbing as well, instead of copper.
Independent of cost, which is a better system? Is a “home run” system better than one with lots of fittings (I would assume so). Does this preclude the possibility of having a hot water circulator?
On a home run system, do you really do a run for every fitting? Examples, dual sinks in bathroom, ice maker for refrigerator, insta-hot dispenser, etc or do you just home run to each general area (ex: MBR vanity)?
House specifics: 5000 sq ft house on 2 stories. 4 full baths (7 sinks), 2 half baths, wet bar in game room, kitchen (2 sinks, 2 DW, ice maker, refrigerator, intsta hot), laundry (with tub), and a couple of outside faucets.
I know there is some mixed feelings out there. My builder said he would be happy to do either, but said that he would have to chose a different plumber because his primary one won’t touch PEX. I am pretty torn… I am not a technology adverse person by any means, yet I do not want to get pulled into the latest craze for something as fundamental as plumbing infrastructure.
/Jim Pappas
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Jim, e-mail me if you wish. I will send me my home phone number and will do my level best to answer your questions in a fair and honest manner.
WHW
*I e-mailed you my number on your Yahoo e-mail...
*Wet Head Warrior,Thanks for the email and discussion... for the benefit of those reading, it looks like the best solution, if I go with Wirsbo, would be to have a hybrid "home run" and "circulator" system where the hot water would be in a circulator loop with a larger diameter tubing, and there would be a small manifold at each major room (like a bathroom) with short direct runs from that manifold to each fixture./Jim Pappas
*My pleasure!Be sure to insulate the recirc line with at least 1/2" wall insulation. Imagine the complete path of the water being recirculated and that will be what needs to be insulated.
*Jim, I am just finishing a new home with a plumbing system exactly as WetHead described. It is a very nice setup and I can't see any problem at all in the way it will function. You can have it all!! It's up to you whether you want PEX or not. I'm curious as to why your plumber won't "touch it". I think he needs to educate himself soon or he will be losing a lot of business one of these days. This is not a new concept, although I know a lot of plumbers that are afraid to try it.
*You are right on. All the plumbers that I have met who won't touch PEX don't understand it. I just grin because I am bdding against them. See, I can bid a decent profit and still beat their bid because of the money I save on labor costs by using PEX. At the same time I believe I am actually installing a superior product.I like it, I love it!
*Hey WHW - I've been putting in a fair bit of PEX, both in plumbing mode and for radiant heat. I, too, prefer it even though I get great pleasure from doing a good job with copper. I was hoping to see more of your thinking on this one in the thread ...So I'm wondering if you might share some of your thoughts on supply layouts with PEX or point me towards any past threads or resources that would deal with this. Thanks!
*Do you think that there is a "perception issue" with PEX? Do you think this could negatively affect resale value of the house if a large percentage of the population (including plumbers) feel that "plastic" is inferior?I am relatively confident that PEX is a great product, and has several advantages over copper./Jim Pappas
*I believe in a few years it will be an issue the other way around.Perception is something that comes up. In fact I bring it up. As soon as I tell them it has nothing in common with the PB pipe that so often failed except that PEX too is flexible it is OK with them. Never ONCE had a customer deny it after I explained that. The very last job I did they did request copper... until they got the first bill. Seems the GC got mixed up and told them copper was the cheaper of my 2 prices. They really wanted PEX, but felt they couldn't justify the extra cost. Ugghhh! Everyone felt bad about the mix up including the GC as he prefers PEX himself.
*I have been planning to plumb my new home with PEX. I am searching for a good book on plumbing with PEX...just examples and such. Always nice to see what others have done before starting out. I'll ask a few questions:When you plumb with pex, do you bring it out of the wall cavity on a 90 degree bend (in the tube) then attach a valve fitting? Is this a "rigid" connection? I assume the fitting is screwed to the wall for support?Is there any taste associated with PEX?Thanks much,Bruce
*FWIW Several years ago I was doing a renovation on a house on an acreage near a river on Vancouver Island. One night something woke the lady of the house, she thought she heard water running, put her feet over the side of the bed and stood up in two or three inches of water covering the floor. Seems that rats or a rat got into a closet crawlspace (probably from the attic) and chewed on the plastic line a previous renovator had put in to service the half bath in the Master bedroom. Apparently rats love to chew on plastic. Something to think about if you live rurally or near any seashore where they will definitely be endemic.Alan
*I have always had a bit of a wonder about PEX's (and before that, polybutylene's) vulnerability to chewing, but have never heard of it actually happening until this account. Here we just have mice and (heaven forbid) red squirrels, no rats to speak of. Wondering if anyone else has heard of chewing incidents and what the circumstances were ...
*Rats also enjoy chewing on Romex, which is why they made you use conduit for wiring in NYC. I had a mouse chew my phone line in half last year. I suppose anything can happen if one of the critters gets in the house and is hungry!
*I'd rather lose a phone line than a water pipe!
*I haven't heard of this! It makes sense that it could happen...No rodents should be able to get to ANY water lines on a new house. If they can the problem isn't plastic stuff!Of course I have no experience with those 4 foot long rats I heard they have in NY! :-)
*Are red squirrels notorious for bothering houses?? Uh oh. I just built my house in a stand of spruce trees which is also the home for many red squirrels. They have come to "trust" me I think...they'd hop around with me working after a couple of months. Soon as I turn off a saw, generator, etc. they would all chatter. I figured they were planning an attack...are they waiting until I am finished?
*Bruce - you're right, red squirrels can be quite the vocal critics. I initially had a corrugated sheet roofing material (the ill-fated and glad-its-gone Onduline) which had corrugations big enuf for red squirrels to squirm under after they chewed through the foam sealer strips. Since the roofing was laid on purlins, once they chewed through the tyvek layer (another "learning experience") they were into my fiberglass batts in my roof. Nothing like laying awake in the middle of the night listening to squirrels scurrying around wrecking your insulation.They also tend to homestead pretty messily and destructively in my various squirrel accessible outbuildings.Hence my antipathy. Now that I've got a metal roof with smaller corrugations we're in a more peaceful, though guarded, coexistance mode.