Say, for example, you are building a home with a rectangular footprint. i.e., just four corners. One end of the home will be a garage, the rest will be living space over a crawlspace.
I know you go down to 48″ for the whole perimeter, but do you do the same for the foundation element that makes up the transisition from house to garage? Or, can that wall be supported by a simple footing where the top of the footing is about at the height of the garage floor?
Don’t worry, not building, just drawing pictures and making up plans for someone to review for me.
Thanks
Replies
Jim, if the garage footing is attached to the house footing and the garage footing is shallow, frost would get under it and heave it. That would not be good.
IF the garage is not attached, you don't need deep footings. The detached building floats on the frost.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I guess I was not clear - the "perimeter footing and foundation" that surrounds the house AND the attached garage is down below the frost level.
The wall that separates the garage from the house will need a footing (and, perhaps, a foundation wall, depending on if it needs to go down 48", too).
Does that "foundation element" need to go below the frost line, or can it sit at the same level as the crawl? One side of that wall will have a concrete floor (the garage). The other side of that wall will be the crawlspace (under the living space).
Theoretically, the temperature in the garage could get pretty low. That's why I'm asking - do you treat that shared wall as a true "outside" wall and give it a footing below the frost line, or not?
The "O" is the perimeter - there will be a full footing and a foundation wall
The "I" is the shared wall, garage on the right, house on the left
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I OO I OO I OO I OO I OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I would think not. The interior footing is already protected from frost by the building over head.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
>> The interior footing is already protected from frost by the building over head.Maybe not, if it's forty below in the garage.Jim - How much extra will it cost to put the interior footing at the same depth as the outside wall footing? If you don't put it at the same depth, how will you connect it to the outside wall footing?
Jim,
What is the worst case frost line under your 'III's?
If, sometime in the 70+ year lifetime of the structure, you can envision the house sitting thru a winter without heat, then you will need to extend the 'III's down to, what was it? . . .48".
SamT
I figured that's what you were asking. We have to do 8 ft deep here, it's all done the same depth.
If you expect to keep the garage connected to the house, make them all the same.
You could probably get away with it because while the temp in the garage could get very low, (eventually) there should be very little moisture in the soil to cause any real problems should freezing occur. Having said that, you would probably incur more expense doing it the way you described than putting the footings all at the same depth. Construction sequence: day 1, pour deeper footings; day 2, pour foundation walls; day 3, figure out connection and pour shallow footings; day 4, pour stem wall(?); then after that, worry about the compaction that was done in the transition area from deeper wall to shallow footing. Building all at the same depth takes only two days and no worries about the ends of your garage walls settling.
At the risk of hijacking your thread, what are people's opinions about frost-protected shallow footings? I, too, live in Wisconsin (frost depth 48") and am considering building an unheated masonry building with shallow footings but putting rigid foam board horizontally just below the surface, out far enough to prevent the frost from getting below the footings. I was thinking this may also be an optioin for Jim's garage - any thoughts?
Hi-Jack away - good question. I would be concerned that the foam would not provide any resistance or durability to the expanding/freexing soil on the one side. It would eventually crack and water could seep into the soil under the slab (and eventually heave)
Thanks to all who replied. I will probably put it all at 48". I think the points about tieing it in swung me over. I am trying to make the foundation as simple as possible to control costs, but I just can't get what I want without adding some extra corners here or there. (Make it as simple as possible, but no more)
Thanks again.
I.....am considering building an unheated masonry building with shallow footings but putting rigid foam board horizontally just below the surface,"
Jim,
If it is an unheated structuture, why do you want to insulate it?
WSJ
All,
Since it may be relevant to this thread. My heated at times workshop is my 600 sq ft attached to my house garage, located in SE WI. It is built on nothing more than a 6" non-monolithic slab poured on a thin layer of gravel. It dates to the 20's. The house it's attached to has a fully poured concrete basement (no attachment to the garage slab) that was poured in the 50's.
So my question is, why doesn't it heave enough to cause any noticeable damage where it conects to the house? One would think after 50 plus freeze/thaw cycles (down to -38F) it should be moving around a little.
WSJ
Code calls for a footing for any slab on a structure connected to the house. Is the basement wall going to be under the wall separating the house and garage? If so, you don't need to worry about it heaving because it will be sized for the load. This wall and any doors into the living space will also need to be fire rated. Since you'll need footings below the frost line anyway, why not spend a bit more and go with a full wall and SpanCrete for the garage floor so you have the extra space below?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Since you'll need footings below the frost line anyway, why not spend a bit more and go with a full wall and SpanCrete for the garage floor so you have the extra space below? "
HF,
I agree with you on the full basement as it is the norm in Wisconsin. The extra $$$ spent will more than pay at resale. The original poster is on a tight budget, and looking for ways to reduce costs. Makes one wonder if his $$$ are that tight, ???why he's trying to build new.
WSJ
Oh, and you tag line ... "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Geez, that's why we have board stretchers.
Edited 11/20/2004 8:50 am ET by WorkshopJon
Why build new? Maybe sweat equity and trying to have something built the way he wants instead of buying something that has hidden problems, like mine.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hi Jon,
The budget's only as tight as I'm making it. Just trying to explore my options and not add un-necessary expense. Heck, - you know I've been kicking around ideas on this whole project for close to 3 years now. . . .in a hurry I ain't.
I agree with the basement being the norm around here. Here are the 2 main reasons that are swinging me away from a basement:
1- My site has a high water table - dig 4' down from the current grade after a day of light rain and you've got water in the hole in a matter of minutes. It's a long, flat lot on a shallow lake/flowage.
2- I wouldn't want to do a basement with less than a 9' ceiling - the space adds value if it is useable. Neighbor just built a house and put in a basement with a 7' ceiling. Add the ductwork and he has little more than a standup crawlspace - not to mention a sump-pump that works overtime. If I built a home with a 9' ceiling basement I would have to bring in many, many loads of fill to regrade. (or be content with a house that looks like it was built on a Native American burial mound).
Interesting point you made about your attached garage being a mono-pour and not having any issues after all this time. I guess they write the codes for the worst case conditions in a given area - not allowing good judgement to "interfere" when the conditions warrant.
Jim,
"It's a long, flat lot on a shallow lake/flowage."
Now I think I see, Clay, or muck-like soil? Just curious what lake of river?
Incidentally, my attached garage does not rest on a monolithic slab. It has no perimeter reinforcing It was built on nothing more that a 25' x 25' x 6" thick slab. Totally against current code, but still seems to have stood the test of time. Only thing I can think of is that it's on top of a well drained hill. The soil is glacial till...mostly rock, sand and gravel.
Jon
Lake Sinissippi
When I built my garage we saw that there is 12-16" of topsoil and below that was almost totally clear of rocks, some clay. I don't really know how to classify the soil.
Jim,
Ah, Sinissippi. Now that's a big shallow lake. You might find these links educational. I see I live in a gravel area...no surprise with all the sand and gravel quarries around me. Probably explains why I don't see any frost heaving, especially on top of a hill.
Around Sinissippi it seems to be a lot less so.In general Wisconsin has Alfisol type soil with the ratio of sand, silt, and clay varying tremendously. At least that's what I remember from geology class at the UW.
Jon
http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/geog101/textbook/soil_systems/soil_orders_p2.html
http://www.wi.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/soil/statsgo.html
Interesting links, thanks.
Yes, the lake is big and shallow, but we really like it. Not a good place if your a fisherman, but great if you like to jetski, ski, and pontoon. Also good if you like to kayak and canoe since the shoreline is less than 50% developed. There are some neat marshy areas to explore. There is a pair of bald eagles on one of the islands and there are usually some white pelicans (but none this Fall for some reason)
Anyhow, I kind of think of it as a hidden gem and the closest you can find to Waukesha's "lake country" that is still affordable. Price ranges on the lake run from 100 to 600 with most around 300. You know how it goes on lakes: shack, nicer shack, simple home, very nice home, nice shack, shack, etc) We bought one of the shacks.
Spent some time this afternoon drawing the/a/one foundation plan. I put all the footings at 4' below grade. Brought the perimeter up 7' from the top of the footing (except at the garage doors); and then the interior foundation walls (the transition from the garage to the house) at 3'6" above the footings (to act as a form for that side of the slab) The reason for the 4' above grade is that I am going for a "contemprairie bungalow(C)" look and I want to do stone veneer on it. I'm shooting for 3-4' height in the crawl.
I will sit down with the guy I will probably use for the foundation and see if he has recommendations. I am crossing that line where I wish I could do it with 4 corners, but I will make it as simple as I can and still get what I really want.
I kind of think of it as a hidden gem and the closest you can find to Waukesha's "lake country" that is still affordable."
Jim,
Yeah those lake properties have gone through the roof. The wife and I have considered property on Sinnisippi, but right now the commute to downtown would be a killer.. Compared to Okauchee it's still a bargain.
Natalie (you know who I'm referring to) used to live in a very small 1 bedroom with no land, house with her now ex-hubby down on that lake. Was valued at i think $400K in the divorce (Were talking about an uninsulated 20's cottage with 2 x 4 roof construction). 5' in from the street, 5' in from the lake, no land, and only 30' of frontage!
So I see why you want to make that property work for you.
Jon
The wife and I both work in Waukesha. We leave my car at work and carpool in her car (more fuel efficient) about 80-90% of the time. The drive to J and 94 takes 40-45 min. It is nice time together, too.
I agree, downtown would be too far. (we're equidistant to Madison and Milwaukee, about 60-70 min.). Hartford, Watertown (and Johnsons Creek), Oconomowoc, Beaver Dam - they are all about a 30 min drive.
Have you been through Ashippun lately? Two new subdivisions going up. There is also a subdivision of "architechturally controlled" homes going up on McMahon.
The big $ isn't out here yet, but I hope it keeps working its way in this direction.
The big $ isn't out here yet, but I hope it keeps working its way in this direction."
Jim,
Give it ten years.
"Have you been through Ashippun lately?"
No, but I will on Thursday, I'll keep my eyes open.
BTW, have you seen or read about any of those 18,000sq/ft monstrosities going in around here? Milwaukee Magazine had a good article last issue on one in Merton. Claims the have "the best of everything" for....$4.5 million on the tax rolls.
Don't know how they do it. Smack in the middle of a subdivision of 2,500 to 4,000sq/ft homes. HO's said it was important for their kids to be close to the public elementary school. If I find the mag., I'll post a pic.
Jon
Now that they are putting half and full sports courts in some of these homes (in addition to indoor swimming pools) the square footage can sure add up fast.
I suppose if they have no plans for selling and that is what they really want - more power to 'em, I guess. . .
Now, if you want to talk about the merits and perils of over-indulging your kids - that's another discussion all-together.