The neighbor built a nice fence, 6′ tall, cedar planks, PT 4×4 posts buried 3′ down. But he didn’t use cement in the post holes and though the dirt was tamped down fairly well we live in a wet and windy environment.
Sooooo….. The fence has loosened up in the “front to back” orientation – it isn’t going to blow over, but it’s pretty loose. My best thought is to add 45 degree braces every couple of sections to get it plumb, tamp the dirt as much as possible, and let time help. Any better ideas?
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Dig around the posts about a foot or less down around it maybe with a 12-18" circumference. Pour concrete to stabalize it from the top. the bottom of the hole and below that should really have gravel for drainage but you'll live with out it I'm sure at this point.
When the cement is dry caulk around the post and concrete with Karnak flashing cement so water doesn't get between the post and cement.
edit: I've used the quick drying cement (1 hour-ish). It's a little pricey but works well for fence posts. All you do is add a little water in the hole first..pour the cement in..add a little more water..stir it up right in the hole
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Edited 4/5/2009 1:41 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 4/5/2009 1:42 pm ET by andybuildz
"the dirt was tamped down fairly well "
Fairly well apparently isn't good enough. Get a bar and finish tamping it
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Tamping down the dirt must be done a little at a time, fill some & tamp fill some more & tamp. Waiting to tamp a post till the hole is nearly filled usely does not work, only the top seems to tamp in well & the bottoms can stay loose.
Same as in using a plate compactor when compacting gravel, 2-3" lifts at a time or the plate compactor just isnt doing the job
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That's why I was suggesting using a digging bar to tamp now. You can drive a bar in a good 18" and wiggle it back and forth to tamp sideways letting fines silt down the hole to make the soil tight.
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Your right with your advice, its just a harder way to go, alot more arm damaging pounding if you will.
I've done it both ways, filling & tamping a little at a time & over filling & trying to tamp. No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
I know it's not the easy way out, but if the fence panels can be removed in sections, do so and re-set those posts properly. Otherwise it will always be wobbly. Concrete at the tops of the posts does not keep the bottoms from eventually pushing soil aside and the wobble comes back again.
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Bracew the fence so it is plumb then soak the post areas and let them dry and do it again then backfill for settling or let mother nature do her thing.
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I'm with the guys from 'the old school'. Tamp it right and it should work fine. Used to set 16 ft highway sign posts doing this.
But as a couple eluded, you have to tamp right. You already implied that it may not have been a good job 'tamped pretty well'.
Tamping like any other construction activity ... must be done right. Done right and you should be good to go ... in most situations (i.e. sand does not 'tamp', nor does pea gravel). Add a little dirt at a time and use a tamping bar is the right way. You can't backfill to the top and tamp and expect reasonable results. Good tamping starts at the bottom of the hole, not the top.
Frankly I think the suggestion to dig out a little and stabilize the top w/ concrete is not a good option. If the top is stable and the bottom has issues, you will find that out as well.
Before the wide use of concrete products, many many posts were installed very stable using proper tamping. They stayed there for decades. Frankly, I prefer tamping over concrete.
Your neighbor built this fence?
Why are YOU focused upon fixing what he did? You got a building dept there?
I learnt years ago that I'm not responsible for fixing my neighbors mistakes. They seem to resent it, somehow.
I was waiting for someone to may that comment!!!!!
If you places some cement at the top of the hole, wouldn't the freeze lift it up??
Back to the OP's Question...
One doesn't use ceement for wooden posts. One uses tamped crushed stone so's the moisture can drain and not rot the post. The ceement retains the water in a little ceement bowl and makes the post rot faster.
Well dhuh, yeah!
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Thank you.
feel the fuzzyActually the point someone made about what kind of soil goes back in the hole was so basic too that I hadn't thought to bring it up. I always inject lots of rock or stone in the mix or use a gravel if what came out was so goosey as to be unstable. I do it without thinking so I just focused on this guys statement that hinted at poor compaction without thinking of what he compacted.But I can say without a doubt that EVERY post I have removed that I've ever seen set in crete had suffered from that fact, and the ones done in crete up north are usually fractured apart crete collars after five years or so from that contained water freezing and splitting them open.I recal reading here that there are some few places where the soil is so poor and the climate so dry that crete is the best solution, but I can't remember where that might be.Still it would need to be more than just an upper collarHow's the weather in Denver nowdays?
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We had something like 25 or 26 days above 60 during Jan and Feb. Most of March was in the 70's. Until March 21. Been the opposite since.
Been raining here for over a week and supposed to go on all week again this week.
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Mr. Piffin,
Several months ago you recommended gravel for setting posts but I forget to write down what kind you recommended. Since the search function is giving up copper pipe again today, could you wirte your best kind of gravel again?
Thanks,
Lefty-Setting his posts right, not like that jackass next door.
Here, we have a mix called inch minus. It is a washed stone and sand mix that would be appropriate for mixing concrete by hand. Lets water perc through but compacts well.
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Piffin,
Another question for yah, well two actually. Does this mix keep well? I'm only going to be replacing one section per week or so 'cuz I'm lazy. I will be setting one post a week probably. Does the sand sift out of this mix to bottom of the pile if its stored for a while?
How does one figger out how much to order? I'll be replacing about 200 feet in total. Will be set 36 inches deep.
Lefty-back's already aching from wheelbarrowing that "hypothetical " pile of gravel to the backyard.
figure about four cubic feet or so for each post. It'll keep until the cows come home if in a pile. Spread it less than four inches deep on a slope and it will separate though.
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So how many cubic feet of inch mix to the ton?
Sold by the ton ain't it?
Piffin,
In this part of the world, we have TB, or traffic bond , 3/4" to fines comes from lime stone and tamps down to almost concrete hardness, also drains.
Makes for a great driveway base, scrap the top soil, drop on 12-14" #2 stone, also lime stone and top & compact TB on top.
I had a neighbor from Sweden, old cabinet maker, told me once that back home they would char their post in a fire & bury them direct in the ground, swore they would last forever, ever hear of that one?
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"Lefty-Setting his posts right"I was going to ask why you weren't setting them left.The I realised leftISright !!....
You know, in spite of what all them neocons think, the name comes from being left handed, and we all know that left handers are controlled by the right side of the brain.....
But I specialize in pizzing eveybody off, surely you realize that by now....
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Would you say the same for a 6x6 supporting a 1/4 of a 12' x 12' wood deck load? Just curious as to when "ceement" becomes an integral part of a wooden structural system.
Clearly there are options for this case, such as using brackets to mount to the top of a pier, but if concrete eventually rots out a treated wood or cedar post, what are all the people with treated wood foundations going to do in 20 years?"It depends on the situation..."
Piffin and his boys tell me, "Replace them."
If the native soils are basically sands and clays, they will always be moisture sensitive, and the posts will loosen up any time there is any moisture.
Start tamping in some coarse concrete aggregate, or other coarse aggregate that has little or no fines.
If you dig the posts out, use clean crushed rock around them. It allows the posthole to drain, and limits the base rot. The rot will happen regardless of what you use for backfill, but if the posts are in crushed rock they are lots easier to redo.
Just wiggle the post back and fort as much as possible. A gap will be formed, just fill with a dry cement sand mixture.
Wiggling will compact the adjacent dirt, dry cent will fill the gap completely and moisture in the ground will setup the concrete harder than you can mix.
Too simple, too easy, must be something wrong with this suggestion.
Rather than fix the original fence, is there a way to reinforce it? Perhaps using concrete footings/steel posts spaced intermittently? Wouldn't need it at every post, maybe just the two ends and middle depending on the length. At this point, i'd be concerned that any additional tamping might ultimately be a temporary solution.
Have seen this done with decorative metal fences, especially in historical renovation. Many just use metal bracing angled back to concrete.
if you have or can borrow a large hammer drill that will go to hammer only... they have a mushroom head bit for tamping... it will save your arm and make pretty fast work out of it... add plain portland to the dirt as you go and it will become about as hard as concrete.... some places they mix portland and dirt and compact it for pretty long lasting dirt roads...
good luck
p