Finally getting my bathroom floor finished up. After all was said and done it is rock solid with 2 layers of plywood – 3/4″ layer PL’ed and screwed to the joists and the 1/2″ layer glued and screwed to the 3/4″ layer. There is no deflection and it is level in both directions.
I am using 13″ square floor tiles and am going to use something on the plywood – that something is not Ditra, however. I have never used it and am not ready to try it on this project.
Should that something be wonderboard/durock or hardiebacker?
It will be 1/4″ material, if that matters. I will thinset it and screw it to the plywood.
I have never used hardiebacker but it looks nicer than the wonderboard laying on the pile.
Any reason to use one instead of the other?
Thanks.
Replies
How about throwing another product at you. Just to make this easier to choose.
http://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspx
Properly installed, I don't see any difference structurally between durock and hardie backer. However, I find the hardie more pleasant to work with.
Personally, I'd go with Ditra for your application. But if you're completely ruling that out, I'd go with Hardie backer.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
Meet me at House & Builder!
Hardie's a bit more expensive here than Durock, but is easier to score and snap without too much dust. If the price difference doesn't phase you, then I would lean (only slightly) to Hardiebacker.
Ditra's fun though. It really isn't complicated, and it is much, much, much more pleasant to work with than any cement board.
k
Of course, now that I convinced myself not to use Ditra, I am having 2nd thoughts.
I will read up on it again but I do have 1 important question.
Can I install it on the plywood and leave it in place for a while or do I need to put it down and tile over it right away?
With the CBU I can do a little at a time if I want and can pretty much stop anywhere in the process. Is the Ditra user friendly like that?
Thanks.
You don't have to tile over it right away. My experience has been that the Ditra has a tendency to curl up from the wet thinset. You will want to weigh it down until it sets. You will also be using more thinset than you would with CBU because you are filling all the little pyramids. But it does produce a good job in the end.
Just curious, doe's anyone ever use ditra on top of backerboard?~ Ted W ~
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Why would you?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Why would you?
I guess that's what I was really asking. For instance, OP has 3/4" plywood, then 1/2" plywood, which is something I've done on several occasions. What I'm wondering, would there be any benefit to using 1/2" backer in lieu of the 1/2" ply, then going over THAT with ditra. Or is that just a waste of backer?
~ Ted W ~
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Edited 4/21/2009 4:48 pm by Ted W.
I really (really) don't get why everyone makes such a big fuss over this.
3/4 subfloor properly attatched to properly spaced and spanned joists.
Glue and screw 1/2 ext glue underlayment over it................start tiling.
Or lets contemplate this for a 100 years or so, ditra, cbu, hardi, ss screws thiset, no thinset.
LET'S GET THE TILE DONE!!!
I've probably done well over 100 tile jobs over plywood and never had a problem once that I know of. It's covered in the TCNA book EXTENSIVELY.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
But saying stuff like Hardie and Ditra makes us sound more professional like.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/21/2009 5:34 pm by Ted W.
The most common tile failure I see is tile over plywood. Almost always there are cracks in the grout where the plywood seams are, occasionally some of the tiles let go. But it's ALWAYS cracked grout. It might be from how the underlayment (if any was even used) was fastened to the subfloor. It might be from the type of thinset used. It might be improper technique in setting the tile. The second most common is failure I've seen is tile over cement board where no thinset was used between the cement board and the subfloor. Vertical movement results in grout cracks, broken thinset bonds, and a "gritty" sound when the floor is walked on. Tile pops, too.Can you tile over ply? Yup. You can. I can. But not everyone can. At least not successfully.A killer these days is inexpensve travertine. Everyone wants travertine without realizing that is has about 1/4th the strength of other stones and about 1/8th to 1/10th the strength of porcelains and ceramics.They put travertine over a subfloor that could have handled ceramic and the travertine cracks. Or they use travertine manufactured with a portland-based void filler instead of an epoxy-based filler and get filler pops, or dissolved filler when they use an acid wash, which they shouldn't be using anyway.So there is a lowest common denominator out there. Sadly it's quite low and quite common.
Can you tile over ply? Yup. You can. I can. But not everyone can. At least not successfully.
The same holds true in any operation. That's why I don't get the pin point obsessive focus on what some think is the miracle material that will make or break the job regardless of their skill or knowledge.
They could be stting soft stone over a 3/4 subfloor on top of over spaced/spanned joist and because the put down hardi or cbu argggghhhhh! the job is rock solid.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Or lets contemplate this for a 100 years or so, ditra, cbu, hardi, ss screws thiset, no thinset.
you're right.
not thinset.
usually wet set or medium set over a full mud job.
thinking the OP ain't considering a full mud job.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
passed that bridge.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Of course, now that I convinced myself not to use Ditra, I am having 2nd thoughts.
Yesss...... another one joins the collective. Bwaaaa haaaa haaaaaa!!! (note: evil scary laugh)~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Big hard fan but I'd like to try the schluter products eventually.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I have to say I'm biased towards true cement boards...wonderboard and durock...over fibercements. But that's for shower walls, ceilings, etc.
For a floor where you're going to use 1/4", any of them is fine. To me the fibercement makeup of Hardie makes it less brittle than the others, so 1/4" sheets of Hardie might be easier to handle. Unmodified thinset as a setting bed between the hardie and the ply underlayment, then hardie's screws to lock it down.
FWIW, Ditra is very easy to use. They have two versions now, "Ditra" and "Ditra XL", so if you go with Ditra be careful which one you order.
I will guess you NEED the extra 1/4 inch, but if not I'd just go over the plywood with "good on wood" thinset, moistening the plywood as you go to keep the plywood from sucking the moisture out of the thinset.
Ditra's great, Ditra's easy but Ditra's expensive. You did good with your layers of ply. Since everythings nice and secure, flat and even use 1/4" Hardie. No reason for 1/2".
Thinset and screw your 1/4" hardie down. Thinset and tape the seams the day before and get to tiling. ain't too many things easier then 1/4" to cut besides Ditra but you'll save a fortune using 1/4" Hardie if money is a factor.
I personally wouldn't tile over plywood. I like thinset (cement) under my (cement)boards, thinset(cement) seams and thinset (cement) under my tile(stone). ROCK solid so to speak....but thats just me.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 4/22/2009 7:56 am ET by andybuildz
Edited 4/22/2009 7:57 am ET by andybuildz
I still can't figure out how to "reply to all", so this is to all -
Thanks for the info- it seems like if you I do the "right job" it doesn't eally matter what the underlayment is. That is sort of true for most things, a good installation can make up for crappy material just as easily as a hack can screw up installing top notch stuff.
As far as the cost, it is only an 8ft x 9.5ft room so the difference won't be the deciding factor.
Since the backer board doesn't add strength I will use the thinnest possible - 1/4". And I will thinset it and screw it to the plywood. If I decide to go that route.
I am using a solid surface (swanstone) shower base. I assume the Ditra does not go under the shower base. How thick is the Ditra when applied (not including the tile)? Is it about 1/4" or so? I have seen it in HD but never measured it.
Again, thanks for the info - now I just need to flip my 3 sided coin and get to work.
Ditra XL I believe is 5/16" thick and regular Ditra is 1/8" and I "think" with the XL you can get away with a single layer of plywood 5/8-3/4" but don't quote me
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
"but don't quote me"
I still can't figure out how to "reply to all", so this is to all -
When you post a reply you can select from the dropdown list at the top of the reply form. One of the selections is "ALL". ~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Where is this "dropdown" list. I see FROM: TO: POST:
PARAGRAPH FONT SIZE COLOR
Then there is a line of bold, italics, underline, margin justification, bullets, etc.
I'm still lost.
This is what I see when I'm posting..
View Image
I can select from the list if I want this post addressed to somebody else or ALL. You don't have the same? If not, what browser are you using? Also, maybe you have JavaScript turned off?~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
My FROM: and TO: look like your FROM:
I have no choices on the TO: just the name of the person.
I will check my browser settings and hope for the best.
Thanks.
What browser are you using?
Here is what I see with Firefox.View Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
CCI-
You might want to check at the bottom of the page to see if you are in the Basic view or the Advanced View.
Is this too complicated? Switch to Basic View
View Image
Choose your own font size - Advanced View
Edited 4/22/2009 6:30 pm ET by rez
I got hit by that "Basic vs Advanced" when I changed over to a macs from pcs.First I thought it was Safari. Then I loaded Firefox to no avail. I went back to my PC but still had the limited view type of stuff. So I thought it was a Taunton mini-meltdown. But no one else was complaining.Then I went through my settings and saw I was on basic view, so I swapped over to advanced view.Ta da! Back came all the subtle java nuances, and I discovered weeks of "message to me" that I was never aware of.It shows you can recover from a few weeks in...The Taunton Zone
Of course, that's gotta be it. Only thing is if you switch to advanced view, then you have to use Ditra.
Backer board for basic view,
Ditra for advanced view.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Edited 4/22/2009 7:12 pm by Ted W.
Cook's talk uses Hardibacker.
Knot's readers use Wonderboard.
And if yer into fast living you use this...
http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=1778399&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Edited 4/22/2009 7:16 pm ET by rez
Edited 4/22/2009 7:18 pm ET by rez
One question... Would ya do it??? =D
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
ya know, in younger days I might have wanted to do something like that.
Still think it's pretty cool. tho'. Looks to be kind of like living a dream.half of good living is staying out of bad situations
I just turned 50 and I'd do it. But then, I never really did grow up. (the 28 yo gf helps too =)
I saw that on youtube about a month ago, when I was looking for hang gliding videos. I've always wanted to fly without a plane. Of course, if I ever did I would take plenty of training first. One thing I wonder about though. How the heck do they land?? I'm imagining water, must be a splash down. And even then I imagine they hit pretty hard.
Anyway, I'd try it without a second thought. Don't have to be a kid to spread your arms out.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
They are wearing parachutes.
The speed they are gliding at is unbelievable.
It's one of those 'ya never know til yer faced with the situation' routines.
Like you wouldn't chase down the opportunity but if in your adventures you happen to meet up with the situation
where you could because it is there right in front of you like right then and you had to decide yea or nay...
dang wouldn't that be cool?half of good living is staying out of bad situations
I think you would do it. If you were there and a well trained instructor, I'm guessing you couldn't resist. =D
I didn't think about a parachute. Of course, that makes perfect sense.
But what if the parachute fails?
Hmmm...~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Seems like there would be so much prep work to ready one's self for something like that you'd have to have the gumption to really want to pursue it.
but one can dreamhalf of good living is staying out of bad situations
Ditra is 1/8". It can be used with a single layer of 5/8" plywood with porcelain tile. You already have 1 1/4" total floor though, which is sufficient for strength so the only reason to add anything else, I assume, is for waterproofing. I usually try to keep the floor height as low as possible to make a better transition to connecting rooms so in this case would either use the Ditra (which is impermeable besides joints) or use liquid applied waterproofing like Custom Red Guard or Laticrete Hydro Ban. Just make sure that you use the right thinset if you use the Ditra. You will need modified thinset to adhere it to the subfloor and unmodified thinset between the Ditra and tile.