Going to install car siding on the ceiling of the kitchen. It’s 1×6 T&G bevel edge #1 pine, the ceiling is 3:12 slope, 2×6 rafters @ 16″ and 5/8 sheetrock screwed in place (miss anything?) Couple of questions:
Will my 16 ga finish nailer do ok with 2 or 2-1/2″ nails, or is this an excuse to buy a 15 ga nailer?
Would you install the boards from the ridge to the wall, or from the wall to the ridge? (They will be parallel to the ridge.)
How would you terminate the boards at the wall and the ridge?
Should I use biscuits at the butt joints? The room is about 23 ft long and the boards and mostly 16 so butt joints can’t be avoided.
Should I back prime the boards? The face will be painted, not stained. The sheetrock is new and will be taped but not painted. There is fiberglass insulation in the ceiling rafters, and then an attic space.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Replies
I'll save a few of those questions for someone else to hack away at.
I would start at bottom and work up to ridge. Easier by far.
Use some eadhesive since you have that nice SR surface to adhere to and to leep nails from going very far into the rafters.
16 0r 15 ga nails Ok that way.
No need to backprime if wood is acclimatized to site conditions. The SR behind it will slow movement oif moisture.
Excellence is its own reward!
Bottom up for sure. Gravity is on your side. Save your neck too. Biscuits for ends are good insurance. You need some kind of trim to cap the top and bottom, I think plain ones look better. That's all I can think of.
Tom
Use a lot of construction adhisive, and biscuits sound like a great idea only if your serving gravey. Ha, ha, ha. hack.
P.S. wall to ridge, no prime.
One more...would you calculate a layout based on the length of the ceiling & the board coverage? So that there wouldn't be a 1" board at the ridge, that kind of stuff. Or just start at the bottom with a full board where it would be closest to eye level, and let the ridge come out to whatever?Do it right, or do it twice.
Just go for it 'cause whatever you calculate will grow or shrink as you go up..
Excellence is its own reward!
Elcid,
What ever you take from the bottom is going to add at the top if you're using consistant width material. someone also posted that your layout will very, which is true, because of warpped planks or joints that don't fit tightly. Imagine if you are doing a ceiling that is 20 ft. wide and you have 10 planks that have a 1/16" gap, which is not that big,multiply 1/16" by 10, your now 5/8" off your layout. Go with it and make adjustments as you go. Good luck, Hack.
I wouldn't bother with biscuits. The butted boards are going to be constrained by the ones above and below it since they are tongue and groove. Make each joint over a rafter and nail the end of each board into the rafter with a nail diagonally through the tongue like you'd do all the others.
Get pix,
SamT
Q#3 how could I not have thunk of that. So we have a situation where damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you start at the ridge you'll get two full opposing boards... two things come to mind. The ridge may be slightly uneven so getting a tight fit between the boards may be a problem. Seasonal movement of the boards will open up the gap, although the boards tend to move to the tongue side. If you start at the bottom, Murphy's Law says you are going to end up with two skinny uneven width boards at the ridge. And yes I agree you eyes tend to be drawn to the ridge.
Q#4 do you mean tongues pointing down or up? The problem with any crown molding with a profile in this case is you have to get some custom crowns made in order to match the profiles where the gable end walls meet the side walls.
Q#unasked again, didn't think of that either. I'll go with 16-7, 7-16. Will probably look best and least fiddling around.
Tom
re: #3...two items I didn't mention: 1- it's a remodel, and I have discovered that the ridge is not centered in the room. It appears to be about 4" off center, which results in one rafter length being 8" more than the other. 2- the ridge is actually the bottom of a glulam, so there will be a flat about 2-3" wide.
So, I'll probably start at the top and work down, and cut a "ridge board" with appropriate bevels to cover the joint-beam. HO says she wants totally random joint layout, so I'll probably let them run wild but keep an eye out for stair-stepping.
Do it right, or do it twice.
There you go. Post pix when done.
Tom
Maybe you should doublecheck the center-of-ridge to walls at both ends before you start. prevent any surprises from out of square walls. You can gradually adjust the tightness of the boards to make them come out parallel with the walls.
If you're gonna face nail, I like tongue up, and rip the hidden groove-side off the next to bottom board so's you can pop the bottom board in place, it seems easiest.
But if you're edge nailing, you've gotta go tongue down. The crown will cover the face nails in the bottom board, and you will want to rip a chamfer cut in the hidden groove-face of the bottom board so it will slip under the tongue. A careful PITA cuz you're only ripping about a half kerf and you want to leave a little of the groove-face's inner flat to keep that board from sagging on its' upper edge.
RE; the crown molding, if the HO doesn't want to pay for special molding, use standard crown on the flat walls and bead on the gable ends.
Maybe you can find two similar molds in different widths and adjust the angles-to-walls to make them match?
It's paint grade, let the painter fix it. . . oh yeah, you're the painter aren't you?
Samt
Edited 9/5/2003 2:54:12 AM ET by SamT
Edited 9/5/2003 3:21:29 AM ET by SamT
oh yeah, you're the painter aren't you? Probably for this one...although she is also talking about stain.
Nailing through the tongue (makes my mouth hurt just saying that) is a little tricky. I made up a sample board for the HO, and discovered that you have to nail right at the edge of the tongue where the bevel starts. It's too easy to nail up on the bevel, and then the heads show, unlike nailing square edge floor boards.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 9/6/2003 8:11:07 AM ET by ELCID72
Maybe you can use a T&G floor nailer with 2 hands to hold to board in place and 2 hands to operate the nailer.
I hope this is a T&M job.
SamT
Here's an update on the ceiling. We are about 80% complete in the kitchen/dining area, and will do the living room next week, total of about 1200 sf. We are fastening the boards to the ceiling with 2" trim head screws, one per joist. Once all the screws are in, the holes will be filled and sanded. The HO wants the ceiling painted, so the holes are not an issue, although they are quite small. The board are #1 syp and for the most part are in very good condition, but occassionally we get one with a bend and it gets cut into shorter pieces. We are installing them in a totally random pattern (but watching for accidental joint patterns) and not paying attention to getting the joints to land on a joist. With the T&G edges, the loose ends are well supported. The first side we completed is about 12 ft from ridge to wall, and we came out within 1/16" of parallel...dam we're lucky!
Sometimes there is a little problem getting the T&G to close up tight, so we either tap it into place with a hammer and wood scrap, or use a bar clamp with temporary clamping pads. There's a picture attached of the clamp method. Again, since the ceiling will be painted, the extra holes are of no consequence, and certainly preferable to gaps.
There are about 35 recessed can lights in the ceilings, and I made a jig to cut the holes. In one picture you can see the jig clamped over (under?) a fixture, and next to it is a completed hole. The jig is simply a hole in a piece of plywood, and I use my PC 690 router with a top-bearing bit to cut the hole. Works very well, except that I tend to get covered with wood shavings while cutting the hole.
In the overall picture you can see the a/c diffusers. They were purchased from Cape Cod Air Grilles, and recessed into the wood. The grilles are 3/4" thick, the same as the ceiling, and fit flush. Once the ceiling is painted, they should blend in very well. The grilles are good quality, but a bit expensive. I need 4 more for the other ceiling, but will probably try to make them myself from nice plywood.
(see next message for pics)
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 10/24/2003 11:08:37 PM ET by ELCID72
I had to irfan the pictures to get the kb down...
Do it right, or do it twice.
Nice job ELCID. You're not going to leave those florescent fixtures up there, are you? :)
Are you going to put any trim around the perimeter? It looks pretty good from the pics without the trim.
Edited 10/25/2003 12:51:25 AM ET by TOMCHARK
I got an email from some guy named Dick Head with comments about the pics :) His comment was that he would probably paint the tongues to prevent bare wood from showing if the boards contract. Fair comment. The boards are kiln dried and have been stored in the house for about 4 weeks. Weather here in south Texas tends to be dry (not like Ariz) but it frequently doesn't rain for 3-5 weeks at a time, and the normal humidity is quite low. Bottom line is that I hope they don't shrink, and I'm not going to worry about it.
Tom, funny you should mention the shop lights. I showed my wife a progress pic just before the wood went up, and she asked the same thing, and when I said yes she believed me. They are actually about to get in the way, so they will be coming down soon.
There will be a strip of trim at the wall-ceiling intersection, but it hasn't been determined yet. There will also be a flat board at the ridge to cover the bottom of the glulam and to conceal the fan j-boxes. You're right, it's a pretty good installation without the trim, but the trim will be part of the overall trim design so there will be something added.
Do it right, or do it twice.
You probably have a very good reason for screwing the material on rather than nailing through the tongues as is typical for T&G board installation. Would you please explain that to me?
The job looks great.
Elcid
Nice looking work,
Just a suggestion and maybe you are already doing it, but, rough cut your t&g board from 1/8" to 1/16" from the finish cut and then route, not as much sawdust to eat though.
Doug
I know you didn't ask me this, but I'll take a shot and say that since there is drywall beneath the wood, and the wood is install on the ceiling, the nail-through-the-tongue method just wouldn't hold up : )
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Nick, I just saw your post after I responded to Elcid. Of course, nails would have to engage the framing. An 8 finish nail would be my choice. I doubt a powered trim nail, such as Paslode, would have the necessary holding power. I've used the 8 finish and only had to predrill at the ends of boards and at spots I think might split, such as at knots. No doubt there might be situations where this wouldn't work, but the few I've run into, hand nailing into the tongues has worked great.
rather than nailing through the tongues as is typical for T&G board Tim I assume you mean typical floor boards. The floor boards have square edges, the car siding has bevels. The boards are 1x6 with a v-groove down the middle, and bevels at the edges, so when it's put together there is a pattern of v-grooves every 2-3/4". I did a sample for the client and used a 16 ga finish nailer. First, I was not happy with the holding power of the 16 ga nails. Second, the boards are generally in very good condition, but there is some warp, cup, and twist, and unless I used framing nails the boards could not have been pulled straight & flat to the ceiling. Third, there was no place to set the nails that would conceal them. Even if I set the nail at the tongue-groove intersection, that point is visible after the boards are assembled. So bottom line it was better/easier to just use trim screws and putty the holes.Do it right, or do it twice.
Elcid, thanks for your reply. I had written a lengthy post about how nailing car siding has always worked well for me, but I cancelled it when I thought that it was probably much ado about nothing. However, I will now say that I have nailed carsiding on ceilings with 6 or 8 finish nails and have had great success. When it's all done the nail heads are invisible. Furthermore, hand nailing as opposed to power nailing tends to drive the boards tight together. But maybe there was a slight difference in profiles between your product and the ones I used that would make nail heads more visible for you. Local variations or something. Additionally, I wouldn't want to work down from the top. Seems like it would be extremely awkward working in the successive boards. I can just imagine facing uphill and bending over backwards to push them in or having to face downhill and pulling them towards me. BUT, if this works for you, that's great.
Another offering of MHO: I would have done as much prefinishing of the material as possible just because it's easier to finish material on horses than it is over head.
Your job looks good and no doubt it'll turn out perfect. I'm just offering how I would do the work that would be easiest for me. Different techniques work for different people.
Tim, I asked the question here before I started, about working from the ridge down or from the wall up, and the sugestion was top down. It was a bit tough at times, but we used a scaffold and could stand/sit facing up hill most of the time, so it was bearable. Also, by starting at the top, we were assured that there would be two identical-width (full size) boards meeting at the ridge, rather than the possibility of two different sizes, and people would see the different widths of adjacent boards at the ridge, but few would see differences across the room. As it turned out, the last boards at the wall line are within an inch of the same width, even though the two ceiling lengths are different by about 9 inches.
I guess you could calculate the board coverage and start with an appropriate ripped width at the wall line, but the coverage was _about_ 5-1/8" and I'm not that confident about calculating the coverage, considering the possibility of uneven gaps, etc.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 10/26/2003 9:16:54 AM ET by ELCID72
Yeah, I read that discussion about ins and outs of the different starting locations. I can only offer my opinon based on my experiences and general skills. I would have dealt with the top when I got there. Being as there are factors beyond one's control, such as varying width boards, varying gaps in fastening, and other things that affect certain judgment, I would have gone with ease of installation in this case.
Thanks for your reply.
I did a ceiling with 1x6 T&G Birch 6 years ago, one end was a vaulted Hip so I had no choice but to start at the top, nailed in the tongue and left unfinished, still looks good to this day, If I remember I'll take a picture of it next time I'm there and post it.
Yes, I understand how you would need to start at the top in that situation. Did you have to trim the joints at the ridges?
I mitred them to fit, simple sheathing I learned in carpentry school, I rarely use, I think....unit rise/unit line length? its been a while :)
I was one of those who recommended starting at the bottom for ease of installation but I see your pitch is low so it doesn't mater as much as with a 12/12.
I don't want to be a Dick Head or anything, but we always preprime that kind of material first for two reasons, both make for better job and end up saving money.
One is that the tongues will show dark later in life and require re-painting. The other is that it is a whoile lot easier to pain wood on sawhorses at waste level than to sand and paint up overhead.
I also hide the nails in the tongue with my softer white pine but I can imagine that gnarly SYP standing off on you and letting tits show. I also don't have to fight through sheet rock with my nails.
For those clamps and squash blocks, when the wood wants to argue with you - next time you do this - You can screw a 2x4 block at the off side on the sheet rock maybe a half inch away and cut yourself some wedges to drive to tighten the joint. That way you have far fewer holes to fill and repair.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
I've done this without sheetrock. Then I can use my bowrench (usually) to persuade crowned boards.
Do you see any significant advantage to backing T&G with sheetrock such as in this situation?
I can see good reasons for the rock as a fire stop if there were a second floor and it would definiterly be needed if there were a separate living quarters ( apartment or condoi unit) up there. For a ceiling on a ranch, I don't see it unless in a closely built developement with strict fire codes..
Excellence is its own reward!
I don't want to be a Dick Head or anything, That was an inside joke, probably should have explained it. The sender made a comment in the email that what he was going to say would probably sound like a dick head, so I thought I'd have a little referential fun. If you see this message Mr Head, it was meant to be humor :)
The slope of the ceiling is only 3:12 so I'm sure it is very different than a 12:12. But I still don't see the disadvantage of starting at the top with two guaranteed matching boards. Now of course this is the first wood ceiling I have done, so I have nothing to compare it to, but I am happy with the way it turned out, and there were no special problems with the top-down installatrion.
than to sand and paint up overhead. Do you do all the painting on the ground, or just the first coat? I understand the possibility of the dark tongues showing later. One of the problems I can see with pre-painting (actually the only problem) is space to lay out the boards. Or if you paint a batch then install, wouldn't it slow the production? Please explain sanding...the boards I installed are quite smooth, better than the studs we get. If you look carefully, at the right angle, you can see the planer marks like are visible on some moulding. In fact, the boards are as smooth as any moulding I have used. I plan to spray the paint, so I think that will be easier in place.
Good idea on the blocks and wedges to drive the wood into position...why didn't you post that last week? :)
Do it right, or do it twice.
The reason it is easier to start at bottom and work up is gravity. I'm sure that even Dick wood agree that having a chunk of that SYP slap him in the Head is an unpleasantexperience. One guy can handle lengths to 12 or 14 feet working with gravity but you definitely need two guys to do a ten footer when fighting uphill.
painting - We ALWAYS sand wood before painting. Planer blades leave a mill glaze behind. It is even worse in SYP because of the amt of pitchor resin it contains. Basically, what it is - the blades slap the wood and heat it, turning the resin into a wax surface that prevents paint from penetrating and getting the best bond. You will certainly be doing some sanding where you fill and patch those screw holes. If you only sand in the immediate area of the hole filled, there will be a different texture to the final paint finish. Our painters here like to be able to smooth the paint with a brush for a better job. Even the ones that spray will still brush out the finish.
Lasdt winter, I did a ceiling with 1x6 T&G. Bought it pre-primered and the painter talkied me into letting him put on the first coat of colour too. two guys brushed it on over the horses and stood the pieces against the walls all the way around the room. Next AM it was dry and got restacked. I then nailed it up in a day an a half witha helper. Room was about 24 x 24.
After it was up, they still had to paint again to hide scuffs and because the interior decorators changed their minds about colour..
Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting discussion. I am a top down man. We often have ridge beams to leave exposed. If you start at the top then it is easier to get the beveled edge of the piece tight to the beam. If you start from the bottom, then the top piece is hard to get in and you have to rip off the back of the groove. When you start from the top you can fit the top and bottom bevel tight easier. Starting from the top down, there is plenty of room to fit the bottom piece without ripping the groove.
I agree that it would be easier to finish the pieces on the horses than sanding overhead. I noticed the grading crayon marks all over and even if painted they would have to be sanded off.
Screws? I won't get into that too much. A 2.5" blind nail at the tongue and a nail in the field would be good enough.
For a wedge to close the gaps I use a method similar to Piffins. I use a T&G scrap that I rip at an angle. The groove edge of the scrap becomes the wedge and the tongue edge is nailed with 2 or three nails on a rafter to provide backing for the wedge. The scrap with the groove keeps the wedge from popping out under pressure and it matches the stock so it doesn't damage the tongue. Sometimes I rip off the top edge of the groove on the wedge to provide nailing at the rafter.
I would also always splice the breaks on the rafters. I usually add a little glue there and nail both edges into the rafter. One set of nails on the edge can be hid under the bevel. Before starting I write on a tablet the centers of each rafter when pulling a tape from each end so I have a handy reference for lengths at my saw.
.
As usual you make some good points. The only odd point is your comment about stacking the painted pieces around the room...short boards or tall ceiling? And do you sand your crown and other millwork before painting?
Do it right, or do it twice.
piffin, GREAT TIP on the wedges!
I saw that the ceiling was drywalled. Any real reason that it should or should not be drywalled? I am planning the same sort of affair for my place that I am building now (out in the breakfast room..... 16 x 12). Looks fantastic. Actually, it looks just like the stuff I got at Do Yourself In years ago called porch flooring and put in my weekender in PA. I think it was like $2.99 per board (8ft x 3in or so). Dirt cheap and crooked as the day is long but it went down pretty well with some persuasion. Still looks great 10 years later.
Very nice work
Rob Kress
Rob, I think the sheetrock is a fire code issue. We used 5/8" rock.
It might be called porch flooring in your area. I had a choice of #1 SYP 1x6 with a v-groove down the middle, or #2 with only beveled edges. We went with the middle groove because we wanted the smaller pattern. Oh, I see yours was 8 ft x 3 in. Mine was 10 ft and 14 ft x 5-1/2". And the 14 ft pieces were tough to install because of having to align the t&g for theentire length. We found that 8 ft pieces went together very easily, 10 ft with a little work, but we wanted to have as few joints as possible.
I paid $1.263/bf (invoice) or $1.517/sf (calculated).Do it right, or do it twice.
What a shame to paint! I love wood.
It looks like you installed the wood over drywall. Correct? Why?
JR, the wood is in fact installed over 5/8 sheetrock. Why? Well, 1- I thought it was a fire code issue (apparently not); 2- When the sheetrock went up, the ceiling was going to be textured and painted, the wood was a change; 3- It allowed me to close up the house and get the a/c back on.
Do it right, or do it twice.