This is a voice (cry) from the past…………..
Hearty hello to all the helpful guys/gals who offered advice when we built in ’99.
The wood block flooring is still beautiful – the satin verathane seal keeps that original honey color beautifully, and even though it’s the main “artery” of the house, leading to all rooms, shows no wear at all. Here’s the rub:
As was the case first winter, so has it been every winter since……… As explained in archive details, we became enthralled with the floor after having seen it in friends’ home in Olympia, Washington – a region of moisture beyond belief, at times. Also, theirs was installed with sawdust/glue for grout, each block glued down on typical plywood subflooring, with forced air heating system. They don’t have “shrinkage/grout splitting” problems.
Now, hindsight can be a cruel taskmaster, a point we’re reminded of each winter, as we get down on our hands and knees for our annual repair job. Reason? Our floor is (1) on gypcrete, (2) imbedded with hot water piping that heats the wood, encouraging shrinkage, and worst of all, (3) in a very dry climate that only gets more dry as winter settles in. This makes for fantastic skiing, but does nothing for wood block flooring! 🙁 When the wood shrinks (? still, after 5 years?), it pulls the glue/sawdust grout apart, which then has to be chipped out, new grout mixed, squeezed in, dried, then sealed again. An arduous patchwork job on these aging joints. In addition to the dryness issue, I’m sure the fact that the adhesive sold to us by our floor covering supplier is a big part of the problem – nasty, super thick (expensive!) stuff that never did seal, thereby leaving the blocks to more or less “float”. This is a dilemma.
Somewhere along the line of questions/discussion w-a-a-y back then, someone mentioned a “silicone” type of goop to mix with the sawdust that might at least lessen, if not eliminate this annual mess. So, what we’re thinking, is that if we replace the old, cracking grout with something more “flexible”, then maybe it would “move”, at least partly, when winter dryness sets in………. Note: it’s the grout that’s cracking and opening up – the wood blocks don’t crack……’course, they could be shrinking, too, I suppose.
So, my question is this: Does anyone know what type/brand of this “silicone” sealer we might use? In the previous discussion, no details about this emerged. When we asked about it at the local building supply store, they gave us that “deer in the headlights” stare and shrug of the shoulders, pointing to the little tube gun on the shelf. When we told the kid we were going to mix it with sawdust and be grouting around all sides of 1,436 blocks of wood, and we’d need a lot more than was in those little tubes, he starting slowing backing away…… We went for the glue in gallon jugs.
Any thoughts AT ALL for this problem will so greatly appreciated! We’re not getting any younger, and working on our hands & knees isn’t getting any easier! 😉
Finally, to answer the obvious question, “Would you do this floor again”, we reply YES! YES! YES! Of course, *next* time it will be done by a couple of young guys with strong backs….etc…..etc…. AND, we’ll be doing it in a less-dry climate region!
Come back with any suggestions – and, yes, wet noodle award for dumb ideas!
Thanks, everyone. You’re the best
Kris
Replies
You might try contacting the tech help line at one of the glue companies.
Or try talking to a regular wood floor guy in your area and see if he recommends some sort of filler for cracks in wood floors. (You see the same problem -- only not as bad -- with regular hardwood floors.)
Only other thing I can think of is to rip it all up, put down sheets of ply, glue to the ply, and then put flexible caulk in at the ply seams.
kris... treat yourself to a moisture meter.. read your floor's moisture content and track it on a calendar..
also .. same time.. read the Relative Humidity in your home and track it..
if this were coastal Rhode Island.. to maintain equilibrium.. you'd be dehumidifying in the summer and humidifying in the winter..
i'm betting your problem is not with the glue and grout..it's with the humidity and moisture content swings ..your floor is telling you there is an unhealthy condition in your home.. in the winter , you have to add moisture to keep the wood from shrinking..
imagine what it does to your mucous membranes ...
To: Dan H
'ripping up the floor"..................ooooohhhh, not an option..............1,436 little tiles.........oh, no...........
when you say "flexible caulking", of what do you speak? Is it clear? The same goop the tile guy used to seal at the tub surround? Is there a "name brand"? Does it come in tubs that I can mix with the sawdust? This sound promising...............
Thanks, Dan
******************************
To: Mike
"test for humidity".......................a really good idea............
We do keep a pot of steaming water on the stove when the temp runs below about 20 degrees. However, we don't have a "humidifier", per se. (It's *only* in winter this happens - January, February.) 'Love the quiet, warm floor aspects of in-floor heating, but there is a downside - the "fresh air exchange" system is open windows. 'Suppose the builder could have covered this issue with us novices, but then what he "didn't" cover is yet another issue.............
So, are you saying we should consider getting a stand-alone humidifier for winter months? They're not my favorite, aesthetically, but if that would keep me upright, instead of hunched over on the floor doing repairs, well.......need I say more! By the way, mention of the nasal membranes hit home. Funny how in my younger years, I never had these "middle of the night" sinus headaches that plague me now. I've lived through 37 dry Alaska winters, and only the last three have been a problem. Grrrrrr, aging bods are a nuisance, n'est pas? ;-)
Thanks, Mike.
Kris
"Flexible caulk" comes in a hundred different forms. I was thinking of something like the stuff that tile/flagstone guys use in expansion joints in commercial applications. Generally brown or grey, to match the flooring.
kris.. in some of your previous homes you may not have had a good vapor barrier under the house.. so it was constantly wicking moisture into the house..
now.. with the radiant floor..i bet they have foam under it.. in other words thye have a great vapor barrier..
the outside air is close to zero relative humidity in your winter , right ?.. so the inside just can't keep up .. i bet your RH in the house is 10 , maybe 15 certainly not the 40 % - 50% we'd be looking for here in Rhode Island
Dave Thomas posts here .. he lives in Alaska.. he's got some insight to good design for your climate
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Kris:
I have heard of using a cork mixture (They use a non-hardening binder as opposed to the glue) being used as a grout so that it is more able to expand & contract with the changes in the flooring. Try these guys: ww.kaswell.com/. They may be able to help you out or perhaps send you in the right direction.
BILL
maybe some control joints with a flex caulk would have worked...
but how thick is the wood? and what type?
I'm guess'n the same joints are open'n up every year and not every joint around 1400 tiles?
pony
You know.................. Now that you mention it, 'seems like we are always down on hands n' knees at about the same places every winter..... Hmmmm............ 'could be maybe the heating pipes are more concentrated there...........You're right - it's never *all* the 1,436 blocks that are separating........
BTW, it's fir, 3/4" end cuts, five years ago. Now, my logic could well be flawed, but after this long, surely the individual blocks aren't shrinking much if at all. Therefore, it *must* be the !*&(#*&@(* glue/sawdust grout! I will check out the other suggested options for a new mixture that's "flexible", and see what comes up.
Thanks, everyone! You're the best.
Kris
Now, my logic could well be flawed, but after this long, surely the individual blocks aren't shrinking much if at all. Therefore, it *must* be the !*&(#*&@(* glue/sawdust grout!
I don't think so. Mike nailed it with 54831.3 You've got seasonal movement, too much. Partly your not as flexible as it might be glue, of course. But unless your walls are moving in and out, the floor blocks are actually changing in size. Always have, always will, long as you don't have controlled RH.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
here in vermont i've heard folks use wato furniture oil and saw dust for this floor stays flexable.
put a call in for Goldhiller...
he needs something to do...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I have a feeling that if IAN was here he'd suggest Timbermate.
http://www.timbermate.com/index.pl/aboutus
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=40132.1
There's also this if it's of any help now. http://web.bobvila.com/BVTV/HomeAgain/Video-0136-01-0.html
I'd personally wince at using silicone in a mixture for this job. It can cause big problems with refinishing further down the road.
PS- Trying to control the humidity issue is a big one. And a guy can't wait until shrinkage occurs, then try to bring it back up late in the game and expect results in short order. Ain't gonna happen. The water vapor has to make its way thru the Varathane. You'll be better off to get a handle on it right away in the fall and don't let up. You can still expect some shrinkage cause I doubt your windows will handle the same RH as during the summer when it's 25 below outside. Still......it's better to light one candle than curse the darkness.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/28/2005 10:10 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 2/28/2005 10:18 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
this is scary...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
The BV link. Yeah, I know. All too well. But it was an interesting little video..... IIRC. Stumbled on it and looked quite a while back. Just keep the barf bag close at hand.You mean to tell me you're not a Vila fan? ROAR.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
ya gotta let TOH go I tell ya...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yeah. I know.Old habits die hard. <G>Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Wow, Goldhiller! Thanks for the website link to Timbermate. This is really intriguing. 'Sounds like this product will do everything but cook dinner.! We'll definitely investigate the possibilities. If it works for our application, I'll cook dinner for *anyone* on Breaktime that comes to visit us in Alaska - singles, families, or crew!!!
Kris