We are DIYers installing a 3/4″ T & G wood floor for the first time. We were told by the floor supplier- a local sawmill- that we could cut off the ends of the boards (eliminating the tongues at the ends) as we install the floor. The suggested that we do this as an aid in staggering the “seams” or to trim off chips that some of the boards have at the end. The supplier maintains that the tongue on the end has no impact on the floor installation- that it is the next board coarse that keeps the ends together – and that it doesn’t matter if the ends are cut off. By the way, the tongue end fit is much looser than the side tongue fit. Our floor is ash.
Any thoughts or advise?
Replies
While it is not uncommon to occasionally trim an end off - I can't imagine why it should be done on every board.
Are the "chips" that bad that they won't get sanded out with the rest of the floor?
Terry
I occassionally put down a wood floor and the guy I buy from doesn't do tongues on the ends. I make a square cut, lay the piece on the floor or another flat surface and plunge a biscuit slot into it, do the same on the next piece , add some glue and put them together. Really not sure if its necessary at all, but makes me sleep a little better.
I like that biscuit joining idea. It should be as strong as the traditional t&g, and you can easily put the joints wherever you want.
-- J.S.
We don't do any more cutting than is necessary. Cutting off all the factory ends is a bit nuts if you ask me. The tongues are there for a reason. You stagger joints by cutting the starter piece and paying attention to choosing lengths that keep the stagger going. Open up the packages and arrange the pieces in piles of similar lengths. It's pretty easy to select a piece that will keep the joints broken.
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Debbie
I've never heard of that but I'm no floor guy.
Usually both ends of the piece is either tongue or gloved, you start at one end and keep going until you get across the room, each time adding a tongue to a groved piece or versa vise.
Then when you get to the end you'd have to cut off one end, but usually that end can start the next row if its long enough, or discarded if not.
I can see why you wouldnt need a tongue or grove to butt the two pieces, the wood is going to be held in place by the tongue and grove on the linear part of the wood. Squeeks shouldnt happen.
If your not getting the joints tight enough bang it together, using a block of course.
Doug
This is a guess, but the recommendation to cut the tongue of the short end of the boar is so you don't butt the tongue to the actual wall to get it under where the base board will be. That would leave no space for the wood to expand into.
Now, I picked up a habit from boat/shipbuilding where you use a 4 or 5 "space" lapping scheme--for uniform length boards, that is.. Five looks more elegant, but four is easier to calculate.
For four-space, you take and trim the tongue off one board, and that's the starter. You then cut 1/4 of the length of the next, half the one after that, and 3/4 of the next (1/5; 2/5; 3/5; 4/5--in fifths, see, less elegant math <g>).
Now, in reality, you go get a pile of boards and set up one cut lenght on the chop saw and "do" a batch of them at once, to each of the sizes (but not all).
So, from your starting point, you lay out a full length (no tongue) spaced half a baseboard out away from the wall all around. Then you set a quarter piece. To that pair you add a full-length-with tongue. After that, you install a half, then extend the field with another "full." Next is a 3/4, etc. the next plank is a full with no tongue to repeat the pattern. This stagger the end joints so they are 4 "widths" apart.
Which might look like this:
That help any?
It sounds a lot like he is seling you seconds - hopefiully at a decent discount - that can only be usedby cutting the tongue ends off.
That can work, just be aware that you are buying some work with that discount. I back bevel when I do cut end flooring without tongues.
set the bevel on the mitre saw to give a 2-3° bevel on the ccut so that the top surfaces are in tight contact and thgere is a slightly wedge shaped void at the bottom. Try to make 90° fits and there will be a lot of joints that open at the top wherever there is the slightest irregularity.
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Ive thought about doing that, but what happens when you sand the floor??? Wouldnt you get a small gap showing up when the floor is sanded ( getting bigger with each sanding).
-m2akitaLive by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
goodness, how deep do you sand?
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Piffin,
Over time and a number of refinishes, backbevelling the butts may actually pose a problem. I've seen wood floors that couldn't be refinished yet again because doing so would expose the tongue and groove; that means that about 1/4" had been sanded away. Of course, these were 90-year old softwood floors.
Still, it wouldn't take a whole lot of dimensional removal to expose the gap left by bevelling. I guess it all depends on how long you expect the floor to last.
Edited 5/19/2006 11:41 pm ET by Ragnar17
what gap?! the back bevel leaves no more than 1/16" at the base of the 3/4" sand for a hundred years and take off 3/16" of that thjickness- maybe a third of the wedge shaped space, and you have gone from a perfectly tight fit to a loose fit, but still haven't got anywhere near having a gap. you'ds have more gap than that from the beginning in a lot of square end butt joints
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Piffin,
When I first read your post, I was imagining a steeper back bevel. You're right, though -- if you're only bevelling a 1/16" over 3/4", then it would present nothing to worry about.
Well, there was that one time...........
How much do they generally take off when they sand floors??? I know that Ive seen quite a lip ( 3/16" maybe) on the perimeter of a room where I have taken baseboard off. Of course, who knows how many sandings and refinishings those floors had seen.
-m2akitaLive by the sword, die by the sword....but choose your sword wisely.
I've torn out floors that had the tongue batrely covered so yeah, eventually it gets there. These houses here are about 110 years old, some more. But they were originally cared for by waxing, not too much powere sanding on them till after WW2. The worst places were wheere the house has done some settling and more was taken off the high spots.
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You are correct, the T&G on the end of the board is a looser fit. The reason is the boards expand and contract predominantly in width. Boards only expand and contract incrementaly in length. How much expansion varies, and is dependent upon species and style of cut.
As others have mentioned it is ok to cut the ends from boards to remove flaws or finish a row, but cutting to stagger seams mid row is amateur. It is much better to lay out a row before it is stapled. As you gain competence, staggering seams with full boards by length will become easier.
Also, a tongue removed leaves an empty hollow groove in the next board and can be considered a weak point, Should the end of a chair leg or something heavy drop on that hollow groove it could split.
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Gord
Debbie,
I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with flooring, but I have a suggestion for you based on observation. If you decide to cut off some or all of the endmatching, I'd suggest you locate the butt joints directly over your joists.
The majority of the "old" (75 yrs +) homes I work on have T&G softwood floors. For whatever reason, these softwood floors were not endmatched (meaning they did not have a tongue and groove in the end grain). When the flooring was installed, these butt joints were always laid out directly over a joist.
I have noticed that the butt joints over the joists have stayed relatively tight over the years. However, if the butt joint was NOT over a joist (due to a floor patch, for instance), there is a lot of movement -- you can literally see the two adjacent boards move at least a 1/16" or more as the area is walked over.
I've never heard of such a thing ... cutting them all off.
I think he's trying to sell you screwed up lumber.
U sure you didn't misunderstand? Maybe he was talking about cutting off the T&G of the first board on each run? To make for a staggered pattern ... which is common.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The flooring should be milled in such a way that above the tongue and groove the flooring should fit tight but below there is a gap. This allows the top to always fit tight.
I would never cut off the tongue and groove on the end of each board. It helps to keep the boards from twisting and makes it act as one piece. If you have ever tried to pull up an old floor you would notice how hard it would be because the flooring would fit together and act as one floor.
What is the width of your floor pieces? The T&G ends are of most importance when using wider width flooring boards. Even with narrow widths I would not cut the ends off without good reason.
Like others have said, the ends should be of finish quality and not excessively chipped.
Edited 5/20/2006 9:42 am ET by txlandlord
the t&g is designed to control vetrical movement generally because of where joints of the subfloor will meet the finished floor above but also to aliminate excess nailing. also, depending on your geographic locatiion and the changes in humidity, the t&g allows for correct movement. doing a 90 or a 45 degree to the subfloor seams is always recomended. Is the subfloor t&g? are you over a craw space with dirt below or a dry basement? rembember to leave a space at the walls, covered by the base to allow for movement......in arizona our floors move considerable more then back in NY.....Fredric