I’ve sanded and cleaned the two wooden storm windows for primer.
Built in 1870’s. Through tenon constructon.
I have a broken mortise. The long grained wood that covers the tenon is just a loose flap. That flap is in poor condition, is brittle, and has a large vertical crack.
So the tennon gets wet and stays wet. It shows signs of regular water absorption, but is still strong.
I lack the woodworking skills to do a proper repair on it. I can’t remove wood and install new wood over the tenon.
Any ideas? I’d like to keep it from further water damage.
I have here Min wax wood hardener and the epoxy putty. Also have some of the two part liquid epoxy for soaking into wood fibers.
Replies
Any ideas?
If you won't do it (very uncomplicated), take it to someone willing and able to remove enough wood on the mortised piece to give you a good joint with structural water-proof glue. I like resourcinol.
Which is what I'll use on a neighbor's teak table that requires recutting 60 mortise and tenon joints, then shimming the tenons. He really likes the table, which lives outside all year.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've never used the wood hardner or the epoxy putty to do what your doing but usually there isnt any easy way around a proper fix.
Like Tom said, take it to someone that can do the woodwork part of the job.
Doug
ed - i going to suggest something here . i think you should try to to dissassemble the one side rebuild the tenon and fill-in and glue the mortise with a solid blank . Then remortise for the mortise. Now you just told me under your breathe to go to hell. Because you lack woodworking skills , (B** S***) but what better time to expand those skills, whether your 20 or 80 . a router w/ mortising bit and a SHARP 1/2" long chisel and have at it. Do a search on the forum here and the info will spill right into your lap. arguement number 2) i dont have the time this time around. well find some time, well perhaps find another window that goes quicker as far as repair work that one on the job, and bring the terminal home and take a fewer hours to make this work. It'll be worth it in the end. all the way around. And the repertoire of skills becomes larger.
Now i've pretty much felt like i have overstep my bounds with self righteous, and sanctimonious attitude. But i hate the idea of someone handicapping himself with the idea ........ "I'm not good enough"......B*** S*** .............
.." No matter how flat the pancake , there are always two sides"
Edited 10/21/2007 11:15 am ET by alias
Looks like every answer here is consistent: Do it the right way.
Alias, I'm going to come back later to try and digest the specifics in your post. I know it cross referenced out to others as far as techniques go. I don't think you realize that by day I am a pencil pusher, but that isn't a problem. Thanks
Ed - Something tells me you knew what had to be done , take your time ,ask more questions . post a pic and some basic dimensions, of the window frame , mortise and tenon. some and including myself come across scenarios in restoraton work that tweak my self confidence , and skills. Failure is part and parcel of this kind of work , and more often than not, success is achieved. heres is a jumping off point where you can start , know how the piece is joined together (you know this) if it is pinned or doweled together, identify the wood and use if possible the same or try to keep it as close as possible (know your woods) density and cell structure , get real aquainted with epoxy glue and two part wood filler, stay away from mechanical fastners with joinery especially with exterior applications. on the other hand do not depend on epoxies where wood and rebuilding the components of the joinery for a tight fit, even after all the structual repair is done you may to revitalize the wood with mixtures of penetrol or cut (diluted) boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits,.This helps immensely with absorption of an OIL-BASED primer and paint. This has been a buzz phrase i've been using in the last week in my work . If at all possible treat the problem not the symptom..." No matter how flat the pancake , there are always two sides"
Edited 10/21/2007 1:22 pm ET by alias
Maybe I mis-understand what he is describing, but to my thinking, the penetrating git-rot epoxy IS that right way to deal with this. By drilling and inserting the epoxy, the wood is consolidated where poor, and the joint is renewed, and it becomes impervious to the effects of water which he describes.
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Sounded to me as if the Epoxy and this problem were tailor made for each other. But then I am no purist either.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
paul- point taken. my thought was if the"flap" is not connected the tenon was open to rot also being openend end grain . the mortise is shot the tenon could be also, hard say without pic's . dismantaling would be the way i would go. perhaps drastic, and opening more yourself to more problems. i would toy with that approach, being 1870, and first growth lumber, dont know the species. maybe the epoxie and a clamp, west systems has a 405 silica based (i think) mixed with the epoxie would fill any voids. i'm not familiar with Git-Rot products, i have injected abatron consolidant which worked but is very thick and was concerned with the voids it didnt permeate. i have a door that coming up and the drilling approach would work better than a dismanteling. also another concern would be trapped moisture, but i could be over thinking it . regards /....k
Epoxy and clamp
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Piffin,
I'm back to ask you to please expand a little on the "epoxy and clamp."
Epoxy - - The epoxy I think I understand. There's always the maybe not. The two part I have is like some super low viscosity and should saturate this tenon well. I don't think I will need drilling. Nor do I have missing wood that needs gap filling.
Clamp - It's the "clamp" part that confuses me. Glue and clamp, right? My gluing experiences are 100% with yellow or hide glues and porous wood surfaces that mate well. Yet here I will have an epoxy impregnated tenon, and maybe epoxied morise flap as well.
----resourcinol glue?
----- poor mating surfaces - the tenon and flap surfaces aren't going to match each other well. I can slice some of the swolen tenon down with a chisel. Can use some epoxy putty in there if i end up with a gap. Still, I'm not going to be able to plane the surfaces down into a matching set.
Ed
You will get better penetration of all the wood fibres if you do drill a few small holes in the area. That epoxy will flow into the joint seams as well.But it ccan also cause some slight swelling of the wood fibres to expand the joint and since this is a poor joint now, htere mau be gaps in it. so drill and fill until it quits accepting any more fluid epoxy, then wrap with plastic and lightly lamp it enough to assure full contact of all parts but not enough to squeeze the Epoxy out of the wood and the joint.After it all cures, it will be as one, but there will be some ooze to sand smooth.There may be some need for epxoxy putty/filler after that is done to make for a smooth surface and even possibly to fill the holes you had drilled. But filler is not a glue as a general rule
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Should that be a sun lamp or a black light lamp?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
hnuh?
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He said to "wrap in plastic and lightly lamp it".
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
ccccccccccccccccHave a few extra Cs to save for when you are reading my postings from laptop. The C key keeps hanging up on me and leaving them out.Now you have plenty, CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCcccccccccccccccbut you'll have to remember where you put them next time you need one to read my messages;)
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Thank you for the reply.
Replacing the wood with wood (a "dutchman") is really the way to go, and not necessarily as difficult as it seems. Several times I've just whittled pieces to fit, without any tools other than a sharp pocket knife. Remember, you can make the piece oversize and then plane it down after it's in place. Do try to fine a piece of wood of the same species and roughly the same age, though.
I'll second resorcinol as the glue to use -- kind of expensive and a bit troublesome to mix, plus fairly slow setting (especially in cool weather), but it really bonds with the wood and will last forever. The other good option is urethane (Gorilla) glue -- it's better at gap filling if your pieces don't fit perfectly but it's easy to put on too much and have a mess.
I'd use the Minwax wood hardener on it. It penetrates into the wood, displacing the air so it is wood with a resin in it keeping water out and gluing the fibers together.
Minwax¯ High Performance Wood Hardener's extra hard resin is dissolved in a solution of solvents. These solvents carry the resin deep into the pores of the wood where they quickly evaporate leaving behind the hardened resin resulting in hardened wood.
You could follow that up with the epoxy glue. But fortifying the surrounding area is the first step imo.
When wood is relatively new it has resin in it that is somewhat flexible. It keeps the fibers glued together and keep water out. But over the years it dries up and becomes brittle. This stuff is a step in that direction.
Piffin makes the same point. The epoxy he's using is thin and will penetrate. I pictured epoxy that was thicker and would srand on top of the wood.
Edited 10/28/2007 1:29 am ET by popawheelie
Edited 10/28/2007 10:34 am ET by popawheelie
My main need now is to get this thing done. I do the work outdoors and it's getting cold quickly.
Epoxy is very temperature sensitive. I had some that went off in a couple hours one summer that I tried using in a cold garage one winter with it around 30°F plus some heat from lamps on the work. It took three days to cure up
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Resorcinol is similar. Glued up some screen frames with it in 40ish weather and ended up having to (after 12 hours) tent them with a milkhouse heater underneath to get the glue to set.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yes, the expoxies that are made for rot repair like this act to consolidate the wood fibres the same way the Minwax wood hardener does, but better, though not as fast.I would use the wood hardener if I were taking all the parts of the assemnbly apart to rebuild it, but for doing one corner like this where the parts remain in contact, I don't thing the hardener is as good as the epoxy. Wen I am glueing after wood hardener I like to sand the glue surfaces a bit too, because the hardener can leaved to much sheen.
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It is better to preserve than repair
It is better to repair than restore
It is better to restore than replace
Repair with epoxy. It is easier, faster and you are saving most of the original building fabric.