Curious, I’m in a moral dilemma myself for a change. What would you guys do with this client?
Client is an extremely talkative elder female with varying degrees of multiple illnesses. Up to 1 hour or more will be taken up by client for talking purposes as they are that talkative, preventing me from getting a lot done. I’m working on her job part time, initially declined the job due to lack of time required, but I felt guilty not helping out an old woman in need, so I agreed to work on her job part time.
I contract with her to do a tub installation only for her theraputic needs. Once onsite she starts divying out scope creep quicker than I can handle. Next thing you know the entire freaking bathroom is being remodelled.
Client has been quite indecisive on varying things in the remodel. The most significant indecisiveness is on floor covering. At one point she wanted a patched floor (tile), then said rip the whole floor up, put down hardwood, then back to tile, backto wood, now back to tile again
Client gets upset with contractor (myself) several times since Aug 20 when this job began sometimes bawling because they see no end in sight, sometimes demanding that I spend more time on their project, and oft complaining that I work too slow and not enough hours for the time I am there.
Mind you I committed to part time work, which for me is 2-3hrs night. Client began demanding I put in some weekend time also. About 3 or 4 quite tense arguments ensued between client and myself over how her spur of the moment changes causes me grief on my schedule putting me behind on other jobs I already committed to just so I can please her. Client is currently without an upstairs toilet/sink and is upset at this despite it was THEY who changed plans midway to to a full bath remodel.
During one tense dispute, Client stated they will not recommend me to anyone for work. I was infuriated and ready to walk out when I opted instead to argue back (big mistake).
so my question is, having never been in this situation before, trying to do a good deed and getting overrun with expectations I never conceded to, would you walk off the job, leave it unfinished and forfeit what is still owed and chalk it up to a learning experience (Clients husband is a Prosecuting Atty for the state of PA). If your client told you they will not recommmend you to anyone would you end the relationship right there?
I opted to finish the tile installation and drywall finish and then quit. I’m not doing another filthy project for her. She can’t respect that I am taking time from my family in order to “fit her in” as I can and be thankful for the time i can give. She’s taken advantage of my good deeds by asking for more. I gave into a few more requests then she took a mile. Yeah I know, my bad. But if you were told by your client they won’t recommend you what would you do? I almost walked off the job, yet still felt so sorry for her that I”m finishing what I have started at least. Am I being a fool, or am I bettering the view of others about me for looking past her and ensuring I quit with a job well done regardless?
Oh incidentally, I opted to do this job half price since they’re in financial straits due to her big medical bills and the like. She can’t even appreciate she’s getting an $8K makeover for $4K. Geesh.
Replies
Pardon me if I laugh...or cry....
Now you know why I don't remodel!
You are such a sucker! If you charge full price for all your time, they wouldn't be doing whole bathroom makeovers.
Finish what you started, don't add anything and don't worry about her recomending you...she won't no matter what. She most likely talks down about everybody to everybody.
Start writing full price change orders.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Would you walk off this job?
quite awhile ago, I'd say...
your good nature is being abused...you are getting neither profit or satisfaction for your efforts, and are shortchanging your own family besides...
if there is true need here (no money and a genuinely needed facility), an honorable way out might be to arrange for a 'tornado' (volenteers from church or maybe habitat) to complete the project in short order and get on with your life - get the plumbing working and get out -
dunno - sure is a lousy situation...good luck...
free advice...remember what you paid for it....
Customers like contractors can be crazy.
Some contractors are real good at this sort of thing and some like me aren't, so I don't know if any advice I can give you is worth anything.
First of all, the Contractors who are good at this sort of thing are always losing money. They have never made a decent profit on any job they have ever worked on so working for ½ price is not an option. They may even have to charge a little extra because the building supply fired the guy who gave the original quote and are now charging more.
Second of all Contractors who are good at this sort of thing don't have time to listen to the health complaints of clients because they are reminded of all of their own health problems, heart, kidney stones, bad knees, intestinal problems..ouch etc.
Thirdly, Contractors who are good at this sort of thing are always losing work to immigrants, unskilled tradesmen, etc..etc.. and it being this close to Xmas and tied into a losing contract don't know what they are going to do....
Personally I couldn't do it it, too much pride, but I know several old guys I worked for who are living a healthy retirement...
pyro.. do you have a regular day job.... other than your part -time remodeling work ?
i mean , what are you doing when you're not working for this client?
apparently you have nothing in writing.. so she is free to change her mind at will..
first mistake... not having a written scope of work
commit to writing what you think the scope was .. and what it is now...
2d mistake... there is no free lunch.. you can't do an $8K job for $4K.. i can't . neither can you.. the result is there is not enough money to do the job .. as you are finding out..
see..... you made her a gift of $4,000...
you would have been better off.... IF.... when you first met her, you said..
" I really like you... and here's a check for $4,000.. use it to hire a real contractor who will remodel your bath the way you need it"
you would be done with her.. she'd be done with her bath.. you'd feel good about yourself.. she'd feel good about you..
now get in there and finish the f*cking job.... either you're a pro or you're a schmo
either finish it , or hand her a letter outlining what you think the facts are and why you are terminating your relationship
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I wonder what motivates her to behave as she does: perhaps a see-saw combination of unmet social needs, and the need to be in control. Bet you her husband stopped paying her any attention years ago.
The solution may lie in finding a way to meet her private unspoken needs, while ensuring your needs are met as well.
For example, suggest to her that you both sit down together over a leisurely cuppa and go over what's been done so far, and how much that's worth, so that she can settle with you to that point. Invite her to walk through the project with you, so that you can both reach agreement - in writing - on what needs doing to completion. Her husband is a lawyer, she'll understand that it's best to put things in writing.
Agree on a realistic completion date that works for you. If she wants completion sooner, explain that you'll need to bring in another qualified tradesman, who she would pay directly of course. Someone suggested having a cheap decoy at the door to jaw with her - that might work, or it might drive you crazy. Or put up some sort of 2x2/black plastic partition - a 'construction zone' if you will - that 'keeps her house clean', and her out of your hair. Describe the intended results - including materials quality, colour, etc. - then agree on a fixed labour price for the balance of work. Do not itemize your job time/task time components. Discreetly build in something for your 'management', 'set up', 'shopping', and 'clean-up' time.
Make sure everything is in writing, including that: 1. you can not be interrupted during work as that only delays the end result and will add $x/hour to her costs; 2. that 15 minutes will be set aside at the end of each work 'day' to review progress; 3. that she will cut you a cheque for completion at each critical stage, once a week if possible; 4. that future changes must be by change order; and 5. that you will purchase all materials against her account at the local supplier - you should not be carrying materials for this dangerous client.
Another advantage of the written agreement is that it will make it much harder for her to diss your work, to stiff you on money, or for her husband to take you to court. Take pictures at the beginning and end of each day, and keep notes on how you're using your time. Remain friendly and calm, but be systematic that you're doing what you've agreed to do. Be ruthless on the change orders.
Pay yourself well, you and your family deserve it.
Edited 11/21/2004 1:31 am ET by Pierre1
"$4000 for the job.
If you want to watch, $6000.
If you want to help, $8000". Or tell her that you're going to have to send yourself home for talking on the job. It's tempting to just quit this kind of job, but after detailing to her what you will do for her and at what price, she needs to sign off on it and accept that any changes or extra time she wastes for you by talking your ear off will cost her more money.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks, Mike for that frank advice :) What can I say, I was trying to do a good deed to help out a woman who was obviously in need. Wasn't trying to be a schmo. I've been in the position a few times myself where I was strapped financially and needed someone to help me out. Difference here is I never would've abused ones generosity as mine has been. That is if I needed a new water heater I'd have asked just for that and not to have all my pipes replaced.
I know I got myself into this mess, my problem is I've reached the end of the rope. I allowed a few changes because t hose changes were a change from the original contract but weren't very significant overall. But learn from me a few generous exceptions snowballed and before you knew it I was over my head.
I wasn't trying to cheat anyone out of money. If this were anyone else the bill would estimate out to be around $8K. I agreed to make it $4K because I fell for the sob story that the other contractor ripped them off $4K they had saved up for to do this and then walked out on the job leaving their bath in shambles.
Was just trying to do a good thing while recalling times when I needed a break myself. Unfortunately I wasn't expecting to be taken advantage of. Not only that, I allowed myself to go down that road. One of those t hings that snowballed before you knew it.
pyro..
if you can committ your positions to writing it will serve as a talking point to go over in your meeting with the clients..
you need this meeting. resolve all of the issues.. then get it done..
in hind site..
1) you should have an "arbitration clause" in your contracts.. so your fall-back position is to wind up in arbitration with unreasonable clients.. instead of winding up in court
2) the alarm bells should always go off when you go on a site and the previous contractor is being criticised.. even if it LOOKS like the previous contractor was incompetent or a crook.. be very cautious.. it may NOT have been the contractor.. it might have been the client
3) i was serious about offering to GIVE her $4K...upfront.. that is what you wound up doing... isn't it.. if you had .. you would be better off right now.. so would she
this is under the heading of "no good deed goes unpunished".. really.. anytime you are tempted to reduce your price because of the fianncial circumstances of the customer.. think about it... any time you conciously reduce your price this is EXACTLY what you are doing.. you are making a gift to the customer..... WHY ?
if that is your inclination.. then do it.. make her a gift .. but never reduce your price... it means you will not have the resources to do the job properly...
this is pretty easy for me to say.. not because i am not there and you are.. but rather .. because i've been ther and done that... ain't gonna do it again..
anyways.. get it behind you...
hey... i got one for you..
i took over a job, the other contractor was "incompetent".... and my ego said i could make this guy happy..
three months later , when we were done...he handed me a list of 20 items he wanted redone... i said ... what ?... he wanted them redone..
i said ....no... there is nothing wrong with these things.. ( skylight construction, flashing, deck balusters, roofing exposure , yada , yada yada)... " what do you really want?" " money ? "
i want you to do these things over...
"no." ....... (luckily , i had a arbitration clause )
i said we're going to arbitration.. well , he showed up with a rep. from the shingle company, who proceeded to tell the arbitrator that we had missed the exposure line on the roof shingles on some courses by about a 1/4 " too much...
the arbitrator took the money owed me ( $3K) gave half to him , made him pay the balance.... told him the other 19 things had no merit.. and i walked away..happy to be gone and only cost me $1500
10 years later, the guy wants me to be an expert witness against the shingle company , because some of the shingles had delaminated....
some people just don't get it ...
now , finish up ... and get out... chalk it up to your "continuing education"
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This is by no means a sloution to the problem here, but: When a HO talks alot when you're trying to work, and kills your effincy. Here is what works for me. Act busy'er than you are, look as if you're totally engrosed in the task at hand. Instead of reaching into the case for the drill, rifle through it. Write math down(that you could do in your head) and look calculative. This lets the HO know that they are getting in the way, you dont havto say anything, and they think: "wow, this guy is taking my job very seriusly" and "I better get out of the way". --If they just keep talking, then start interrupting them with outloud thinking, then apologize, or get up all of a sudden to get somthing out of your car. apologize, let them start talking, and then do it again.
Sky that's is soooo funny, yet I can see how it'd work. My technique so far has been to say nothing to her when I arrive, I just bolt to the worksite and immeidately get involved. It's worked 50/50, that is 50% never and 50% barely. I'll try yours next.
I used to work with a guy that if you asked him the time, he would start with a history of time keeping and then get into a history of where he got his watch from, when it was last calibrated etc .... 30 minutes later, if you where lucky, you would get the time.He would call me for some information that he needed for a project that we where working on. And it went the same way. I was stuck for 1/2 hr or more.But then I realized that he would always start out are you busy and I would stay no, then it started.So I learned that when it called I would say use I was busy, but did he have something quick. I was able to get busy handled in a couple of minutes.After a few months of that he would start the calls with "I know that you are busy ....." and usually the calls would only last a couple of minutes. You are just as responsible as the lady for the talking problem. You need to learn to control the situation.Things like "I need to concentrate on this part so that I can do a good job" and when you do talk to her things like "I have spread some adhesive and I have to wait 5 minutes for it to tack off, but then I need to get back to it or it will be ruined."
ROAR!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
well, now you know why the first guy split.
I dont like doing clean-up work for other contractors. The homeowner almost always blames us as a group. Its an uphill battle for the second guy. Sort of like killing the messenger
Yeah, Maverick, ok I learned this lesson the hard way. I"m sorry I criticized the other guy. I should be like a firefighter, all us stick together looking out for one another. I was arrogant and foolish to think there wasn't a reason teh other guy split. Moreover I was wrong to be critical, my pride got in the way of that one, so I"ll take the lumps.
Pyro, in the end you have to be able to sleep well at night. Sounds like you're a good guy that tried to do a good thing. I hope you can get yourself out of it without incurring the wrath of an attorney...there's nothing like it.
Happy Thanksgiving. - Rob
is this truley a woman in need? her husband is att. for the state, what do you suppose he makes 50-75k? never heard of a state job that didn't have health bennies. he may even maybe retired,doesn't change the pic.that much.don't know if your full time self employed but i am and health care paid for by a employer sounds pretty sweet.i do bodywork and i found out early that a customer that pays 4k for a 8k job thinks they got a 3k job and paid to much. if you would of charged 8k they would still think they paid to much.no doubt i've been in deals like this and the only good thing is,is how you will feel when your finally done and this is off your back.any chance you could get someone to help you on a full sat. sun. and get done,even if the 2nd guy does nothing but stand at the bathroom door bs with client jut keeping her out of your hair. do you think ther is any chance of not getting paid? if so i'd try and see if i could at least even at this point,this is the kinda job that shortens your life and then when it's time to get paid it gets worse.nothing to do but finish and learn from it. larry
Pyro
Your in a tough spot, only you can figure out what to do.
Clients husband is a Prosecuting Atty for the state of PA
I think Larry said it, how can they be in need. I would guess his salary is far better than yours, and he definitely has a benefit package that you could only dream of.
I have two prices for my work, "free", only a select few qualify for that, and the "going rate" that's the one that most have to pay. There is no in-between.
I did a reroof for a woman that sounds like the one you are dealing with, could even be a twin sister. I wanted so bad to pick up my gear and just walk away. But, as Mike Smith said, be a professional and finish the job. Do what you contracted for, if she wants something different charge full price for it.
Good luck
Doug
Pyro,
Ninety days is quite awhile for a bath remodel even doing only 3 hours a day. I have been in the same scenario only I was doing it by the hour...so when they talked...I was on the clock.
It was a design-build thing that I figured out along the way with the clients input/approval. Agreed to do it in between other jobs and some weekends. It drug on forever as the client was furnishing all the materials I spec'd and would always buy the wrong stuff.
Tell him to get 60 sheets of type X 5/8ths drywall, he comes back with 60 sheets of 1/2" greenboard! I think you could send this guy to the store for a head of lettuce, and he would come back with a loaf of bread!!!LOL And argue with you that it is was the only thing under the lettuce sign!
The job was building a utility room, full bath, living room/office, and a sleeping room for overflow houseguests, in an outbuilding.
I had to ask the HO to get a finisher for the drywall because he wanted everything buttoned up in 7 days, and I had other commitments. There was a wiring problem that needed a hole cut and patched in finished drywall.
When I saw the texture job he got on the DW, I said that it really looked heavy, HO said it was standard light orangepeel. I knew I would have problems trying to get that heavy look from a spray can for my patch, and made mention of it. Yup, when done, he walked in and said that it would never fly!
Now I can patch drywall all day long, and once finished, not a soul here could find said patch. I told the HO that I thought it would paint out just fine and nobody would ever see it. NOPE!
He was going to hire the taper to match the tex and backcharge me for it, and ordered me off the property.
I emailed him a request to allow me to fix it to his satisfaction, at no additional cost. He accepted. Re-shot the tex with my gun. Job got finished. And I can gauranty you that he would bad mouth me in a heartbeat. It was a nightmare...and a repeat client to boot! Not any more! But I have a clean conscious.
Finish the job the best you can, walk away knowing you finished what you started, and did your best work. I'm still living and learning.
Geez, I wrote a stinkin book...sorry!
Peace
Why is it that I get the feeling that youre not liscensed or insured or have a contract?
The husband is a high profile lawyer?
What does this say to you?
They DO have money and they DO have insurance for one.
And you are a sucker sorry to say.
You STILL feel sorry for her?
I'd feel sorry for your family that youre giving money away that could be better spend on them, as well as your time.
Yes, chaulk it up to a learning experiance.
How can you get out of there without a lawsuit?
See if they'll sign a release form and if they won't and you pull off the job be prepared for this lil sickly old lady from hell to start fuming and suing you for no insurance liscense or real contract and pulling off a job that you ripped out and didt finish.
Be livin' and learnin'
andy..Good luck bro
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ok, before you reply go back to Mike Smiths post and read it again, now read Andy C's post again. Follow those guidelines. I have been there (not at half price) but can ad little else to what is said above.
One thing you said that is incorrect, they should not be happy that you took time away from your family, because you agreed to do it and they are paying you for it. DanT
Andy, I am insured and my company is incorporated and I have no problems with any of my customers. I still do this part time and am finally making the switch to full time beginning this year because the work is coming at the pace to alllow it.
I just didn't forsee what was happening til it as too late and I saw this snowball coming. I'm not that dense it's just that I didn't know what to do when all these changes started coming. I am a "softee" in the heart,the world would be better if more people were, yet I realize it can be taken advantage of as was in this case and I never quite had to deal with an abuse of my generosity like this before. It made me feel awkward and unsure and I reacted by allowing the changes.
This proj started Aug 20 but for 3 wks I was off it due to another job scheduled and I have not been over on this job every single night.
Yes her hub is an atty. Do t hey have money? Hell I dunno, if you look at their house you may think not. The wife has the same illness as my wife and while I make good money now I have to tell you that my wifes illness is financially debilitating and a huge drain on things back home because insurance won't fully cover these illnesses. So that also is partly why I felt sorry for the lady, knowing what she's gong thru having seen my wife suffer with it as well and knowing how the financial drain is excessive.
It'sa tough one, but still I feel I was taken advantage of.
I'm not going to offer any advice on whether to get out or not, but I am going to say that I've met (and worked for) people like that, and I think I know how you feel. There is something wrong with people like that, they can't help it. It doesn't matter how much you do for them, it's never enough. Your time is meaningless to them, and they can't grasp the concept of fairness.
Perhaps I am going to offer some advice after all. Have a sitdown with them, and have it in the back of your mind that if they don't start acting reasonably then you will get up and walk out. It will be up to them to convince you to stay. If you don't get a satisfactory agreement then leave them a letter setting out your position and what you want from them in order to continue, then walk out and get on with your life.
John
Just wanted to add that I hope you'll let us know how this all turns out. Hopefully we can learn from someone else's mistakes - We don't have time to make 'em all ouselves.(-:
Experience is what you got by not having it when you need it.
Thanks, Boss, that's encouraging.
There is a new development. Today I found a sub that had the free time to help me out. He's gonna lay the floor on Wednesday and Friday grout it for me. Long story how this came to be today, but I'm thankful for it and it frees up a lot of time I need this week to work on a basement upgrade where I"m making REAL money and not loosing anything on it.
Once the floor is laid by this person I can then finish the DW that remains and install her fixtures on Saturday for her. I thnk by Saturday or Mon the latest I'll beout of ther for good much to her dismay.
I'm going to cite as reasons for my quitting that I'm expected to talk for about an hour each night I work for her, that she's changed her mind on this date and that date for a total of x times. That on this date and that date she didn't have the tile there for me when it was supposed to be, that she pulled me off onto x number of "hey while you're here I need you to do this" projects, etc, etc. I feel I have the justfication. I woin't be rude aboiut it, but I will be diplomatic in reminding her that this was supposed to only be a whirlpool installation and nothing more, then I'll walk her up to her million dollar bathroom and remark "Some new whirlpool you got there, eh?"
This job is supposed to have additional addons that I"m not going to do. The tub skirt is to be made out of glass tiles with an aqua backing to give it aqua color. She wants the tiles mounted onto plexiglass, grouted, and the colored backing thinned down so much that it keeps the color but become more translucent. Why translucent? Because she intends for me to mount rope lighting arouind the tub decking so that she can light up her whirlpool skirt from behind. I'm not kidding you.
She plans to scrape about 50 tiles with paint thinner to thin out the backing for this reason. NOT ONLY THAT, she plans on taking nail polish (clear) to paint all the little mosaic tiles to protect them. That alone is enough to drive me insane, there's prob a thousandof them.
Tough situation. Not sure if you've gotten a lot of useful advise or not.
I'm curious about something - You said the woman was the talkative one, right? Is the Husband more reasonable? Could you maybe meet with him privately and reason with him about what's going on?
Or maybe have a serious talk with both of them. Tell them (politely as possible)that things have gotten out of hand and you think she/they are being unreasonable.
Sounds like the job is a serious thorn in your side. I wouldn't suggest continuing unless they're willing to make some changes.
But if you don't change anything, nothing will change.
I'm curious about something - You said the woman was the talkative one, right? Is the Husband more reasonable? Could you maybe meet with him privately and reason with him about what's going on?
Boss,I read this line above and about fell off my seat laughing. Seroiusly. Yeah, man, I tried what you suggest. Only to be called by HER the following day and got my royal butt reamed out. She gave me this story that her hubby is verbaly abusive to her and has a short fuse, and that since they're so financially strapped his fuse is just short due to being so stressed out. When I discussed a simple financial issue with him the first time he was calm to me but she called next day and said he reamed her arse out because of a decision she made that costs more money. She told me I am not to discuss anything with her husband again, only her and that she'll take care of her husband.
No joking, really, that's what happened. Can you believe it? Geesh
With or without a written contract and/or written change orders, every relationship is built on trust. Is the trust still there?
When she said she wouldn't recommend you to anyone else, maybe you should have asked if she would recommend you to herself. Because if she wouldn't, then there is no trust and no point in continuing.
Maybe basing the decision on whether of not trust exists is overly simplistic, but it's where I would start.
I have done things to damage trust and it usually it's in what I say rather than what I do. I need to try harder to just say "I can do that", then do it, then charge for it.
-Don
Pyro,
You're in tight spot, no doubt. I'm not the one who has to work there every night after putting in a full time shift elsewhere, but I would say that I probably wouldn't walk. It'll be in the back of your head for the rest of your construction career and seriously puts your reputation on the line. It sounds like she's gonna trash talk you to the neighbors regardless of the outcome, so why justify it for her by walking? If you finish the job and it comes out professionally, your work will speak for itself and the neighbors will have something to form their own opinions on.
BUT.... you promised something you can't deliver. An $8000 bath for $4000. That's your problem. She laid the guilt trip on you and you bit. Your fault. Regarding the lost time in conversation..... takes two to have a conversation. You own at least half of that one too.
As far as the rest of the problems.... never would have happened with the proper paper work.
You haven't answered the question (I believe) regarding what your "normal" job is. That's got me curious. I'm betting you're not a professional... so to speak. I'm not saying your work isn't in line with Pro calibur work...just that your operation isn't. And now you're finding out what seperates the pro's from the weekend warriors. Change orders, contracts, normal operating hours, and experience. At least you're getting the experience out of this and will probably consider changing a few other things after the smoke clears on this job.
Whaddya want? If this stuff was as easy as everyone thinks it is.... everyone'd be doing it, right? This is your bed, you made it, now lie down in it and do what you gotta do.
Most importantly of all...... learn from this. Tuition payments are outrageous....but worth every penny in the long run.
I get them past the talking stage by reminding them they ar paying my for my time. Sometimes i do this discreetly and sometimes by asking bluntly, "Do you want to pay me to talk, or to get somethng done here?"
If they say talk, I take off my pouch, pull up a chair, and roll my watch around on my wrist where it is visible to emphasize the point, and say, "My time is all yours"Hey Pyro, did you post sometimng about this situation a couple of months ago?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<If they say talk, I take off my pouch, pull up a chair, and roll my watch around on my wrist where it is visible to emphasize the point, and say, "My time is all yours">>>>Paul
That'd be fine if he had a contract for time and material but my guess as I said before....I dont think he has a legal written contract if any at all.
She also sounds like lots of clients I dealt with in the past.
I've worked for some seriously wealthy people that took an hour every morning of mine to let me know what DH and DW discussed about the project after I left every fuggin' night....oiy!!!HAppened every single day sooooo....for the rest of my proposals to them I added one and "a half" extra hours into my time assuming this would always happen again and again. No problem....I'm happy to talk as long as I get paid for it.They also put in clauses that if I didnt finsih by say Jan 1, I owed them $100 each extra day....I had no problem with that as long as I got $100 extra each day I finished earlier. Makes sense in all honesty doesnt it....I mean if time is of the essence?
Be older n wiser
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Right, they have to know they are paying for the talk time for this discipline method to work.I don't know what the solution is for this case, or if there is one, because it has already been allowed to get too far out of hand.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul
I agree with Mike....finish what you started because you did start.
Be proffessional... liscense, insurance or not... at this point.Its a no brainer..thats what has to be done unless they are willing to sign a release form....god willing!!!!!!!!One customer that won't recommend me is by no means the end of my world and I'm sure most people know this womans personality...so...don't give her more reason to disqualify you.Its important to live by your word and if your word is discombobulated than you have to re combobulate it...lol....seriously.You stupified (I think I made that word up) yourself by getting sucked in.Here's a tip for Pyro that took me forever to learn.DO NOT talk more than you have to,
Do NOT get too friendly.
Do NOT have your guys talk to customers other than being polite with yes or no, or thank you.
Do NOT talk more than you have to (did I already say that?)
Work smart NOT hard....meaning do your job and the above.
Be well
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I agree on the professional finish, but I don't know that is the right 'solution'
Pyro may still not get paid. Who knowsPyro, one thing I noticed is how you seemed focused on her saying that she will not recommend you to anyone. That is an aside that should not effect how you proceed unless you have a contract stating that you will do this 8K job for 4K if she will also give tyou four good referals. or something that makes the referals part of the agreement and remuneration package.If she is becoming such an emotional stubbling block, you should probably take things up with her husband present. But it sounds to me like he has her written off, and her emotional lacks that he does not provide are the reasopn she is taking things out on you. She is lonely, maybe bitter, possibly in pain, and she is using you as an emotional crutch. She thinks up ways to add to the work in order to keep you around so she won't be so lonely anymore. If she is on pain meds or other meds, she may be somewhat conused herself as to what she is doing.If all that sounds true, try shifting her focus to the end point with something to look forward to like proposing a "Celebration dinner" with her family and yours when you finish and get paid. Talk about the positives of enjoying that meal and the positives of "I know how much you will love this floor when we get it done." Get her focused on the end game and not the process. She may be as discouraged as you are with this job and not realize what she is doing.And keep your own emotions in check. Anytime you need to raise your voicec with a customer, you have lost control of the game.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For any one interested, this is the "Rest of the Story".http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=46242.1"Another fly by night contractor story"
Thanks Bill, there was something about the triangle of bathrooms, invalid lady, and prosecuting atty in PA that tweaked my memory on this.
Wonmder what happened to pyro's old helper.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wonmder what happened to pyro's old helper.
You mean the one that caused a serious electrical short cuz he didn't know what he was doing and i believed his story that he did until I found out the hard way?
As to his status, its' still not employed by me anymore. I let him go back in June and there he's stayed since god knows where.
Believe me, her complaints were very reasonable. None of us on here would dare do the work this guy did so she wasn't a PITA HO, she just was asking for things to be done so they looked right. She's a sweet darlin little old lady who jus didn't know any better with a husband on the road a lot.
Seems like Pyro has done a 180 on his thinking!
Sometimes too, when a person goes through major medical stuff, their disposition can change. Sure thing stands out, either she changed, or he got to know the real her.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Believe me, her complaints were very reasonable. None of us on here would dare do the work this guy did so she wasn't a PITA HO, she just was asking for things to be done so they looked right. She's a sweet darlin little old lady who jus didn't know any better with a husband on the road a lot.
Seems like Pyro has done a 180 on his thinking!
Ah yes, you recalled my words and reminded us allof what I said. :) LOL How pitiful and ugly to see my pride and arrogance thrown back at me like that, yet well deserved :)
Yeah, I've done a 180 and honestly ashamed of myself. I judged when I should not have judged. I gave too much the benefit of the doubt to her and not the prior contractor. I'm embarassed and humbled. I just need to do the right thing and move on and not fall into that trap again. I was wrong and at least THAT I'm not ashamed to admit.
....honestly ashamed of myself. I judged when I should not have judged. I gave too much the benefit of the doubt to her and not the prior contractor. I'm embarassed and humbled. I just need to do the right thing and move on and not fall into that trap again. I was wrong...
don't beat on yourself - I doubt that anyone here would try to claim themselves free of error - - you'll get out of this bad dream, get on with your life little worse for wear and a lot wiser...small potatoes in the big picture -
good luck -
"there's enough for everyone"
Thanks, Dave, everyones encouragement so far has been a huge blessing. I appreciate it and yours as well.
I have been at this for 5 years and here are a few of the lessons I have learned:
If they had problems with previous contractors there is usually something wrong with them. Now I am not talking about poor quality work. I mean when they say they fought with the contractor and couldn't get what they wanted, or the guy didn't work like they thought etc. etc. etc.
Any job where I tried to save someone money I got burned on it. Not when I offered different price range solutions to the problem but when I cut the price "to get the job" in order to fill a time slot or make payroll or what ever I got screwed.
Some "couples" don't communicate between themselves and so one doesn't really know what the other is doing, or care. But that does not mean that since they are not on the same team that you are a member of either team.
You don't have to re-write the contract every time. Make up a simple on page change order. You can fill it out at the site and have a signed document to cover your butt.
You keep bringing up the fact you are doing all these things and she doesn't appreciate your efforts. While I as well as most want our work to be appreciated there is no obligation for the customer to appreciate any of your efforts. They are paying a price for your efforts, an amount you also agreed to and that is all they owe you.
If you feel the way you do about the computer industry you won't like this industry any better. They don't ship jobs overseas to lower bidders, they just give it to the guy down the street. Usually using your specs and after claiming to only want a "good quality contractor". Just the way it is.
Buck is right. Money issues, health care issues, probably not the game for you. You might just stick with smaller jobs and do it as a sideline. While I admire guys who can GC and have a stay at home wife I can't imagine trying to start up without a working wife, especially without her carrying the health care. Just my thoughts. DanT
Thanks, Dan for the good advice, I appreciate it. While you or others may feel I'll learn to hate this industry the same as I do computer programming I have to say that that will never be true. Sure I recognize some will take my ideas and go find a cheaper price, and the like, it's business, a gamble but no more of a gamble than my present employer who's gambling on the same risk, albeit in a different industry of course.
But I like this home improvement/constructin industry. i love it, it's a motivator for me. For example today I worked my "regular" job, got off work and changed clothes and out the door again to install some plumbing fixtures, then to another jobsite to install a light , then to another job to do some DW finishing. I worked form 5pm til Midnight tonight and I was pumped, thoroughly enjoying myself and enjoying the success achieved thus far and in knowing I deliver a great product in the end. Chit chatted with the customers a bit, learned a little more about them, solidified a repoire with them, and off I went. THAT makes me thrive. THAT gives me the sense of accomplishment I never had donig anything else. I been doing this solid over 5yrs and it has not worn off at all, I"m just as enthused as ever. I'm ready to succeed even in failure, I will find a way to succeed. I love it too much to fail. Will I make some bad decisoins along the way? Sure, looks like with this woman of the topic here that I made a bunch of mistakes. But with encouragement and help from o thers I"ll learn from this. Better that I learn now when I can absorb financial hits than when my family is solely dependeint upon me.
I am not saying that it is a bad industry. It's simply not for everyone and has its pitfalls.
I was in midlevel management for 20 years. Office job, people issues, little physical work. I worked in the evening just like you describe rehabbing rental properties. Great stress reliever. Looked forward to every project.
Then I started teaching at a vocational high school. Hated it so I started this. Worked evenings and weekends the first year an a half in business.
I had all the experience I would think is generally needed to do business on your own. Management experience, people experience, wife with a good job and health care, good reputation etc.
But once you are into business on your own you find you are.........on your own. Need to buy a tool or equipment? Your decision. Need health care plan? Your decision. Need a cell phone plan? Your decision. Cranky customer and they want money back? Your decision.
Its hard to describe but you are everything and sometimes you have to be a number of things at one time. And the physical side of it on some jobs will pound you into the ground. Then you need to go home and order material and do billing. Payroll is tommorow night.
All I am saying is do as you wish but it doesn't sound like you are really focused on reality. I can't imagine being in your shoes and trying to start up and cover a wife that is already got medical issues. Without a job, steady cash flow and good health care it is a tough deal when things get slow, and they will. A good health care plan will run 700-1000 buck with someone on it that has pre conditions. That is 20 hours labor alone.
Passion and love and feel goods are nice but this business is work from top to bottom. All the guys you read about here that have done this for years are tough, smart men (or women) that grind work out daily and still have business sense of a college grad. Not a lot of those around. But hey, give it a shot. You can always get a job if it doesn't work out. DanT
So it's been another week or so.... how's all this working out? Have you got her to chill a bit or did you have to pull out until they get current on the coin?
Hmmmm, Diesel, well since you're interested here's the scoop...
I hired a tile sub to take the flooring issue off my back so that I can go work some jobs that are paying me real dollars I need. I had the tile guy scheduled and the night before he was to arrive the next day she called, said cancel the installation they wanted to order special tile for a new border. Ok, this is like the 1000th time she's changed her friggin mind on the tile and here we go again. I call tile sub to cancel. He said no prob, call for a resched.
She orders tile, I go over to install her sink so she has it in the mean time. Meanwhile I do NOT work Thanksgiving day, she expected me to install her sink Turkey Day. So she tries to brush her teeth in the tub, slips and falls and blames it on me for not having hte sink installed. I coiuldn't install it the Wed before turkey day because I ran out of parts and HD was closed turkey day. She lays into me the next day when I arrive. it's a literal raised voice argument. I walked thru the door and she says, "Richard, come here." proceeds to take 30 mins to tell me how in 3 mins she fell and injured herself and how I can't leave things go undone like that. I"m pissed, so I yell back after being assaulted verbally and walk out the door and say I'm not returning ever. She begged me to still do the floor, I said NO, thens he said she'll pay me all the money owed me by Christmas, that caught my attention. I'm not greedy, but I need that money from her, it's been outstanding for 2 friggin months due to her indecisions.
I tell her I am finishing the tile floor, and DW, then it's the end of our relatoinship and that I cannot and refuse to work for her any more. After some more ballyhooing I do my job and tell her I want to leave now to spend time with my kids. she asked where I was gonig, told her to DC, well that started a litany of talk from her. 45 mins worth about the WWII memorial, how her husbands father fought in the war. I POLITELY told her at least 5 times I needed to go and will talk later. She'd always say "and I know you need to go but let me tell you this one last thing." That happened about 5 timees. My anger is rising, my BP escalating, my kids called my phone 3x to ask where I was.
So, this past Tues she calles and said she has my money for me. Then she attached all these prereqs on it for me to get it. I have to install a light first (not in the contract as part of the $1200 owed) I have to install a screen door cuz her $1000 dog ran away (not in the contract either, she just called and left a msg today about that that said something like "Rich also before we give you the $1200 I need a screen door because my dog ran away"). She filled up my answering machine talking about it. On Tues she also said if the tile floor cannot be installed by Christmas that she'll give me $1200 lesss the tile floor install, which is smart for her cuz then she knows how much I"m paying the sub and marking up to make $$ on the sub. Never mind rthat this is all different from what she said to get me to turn around and come back. Now I got to do a bunch of stuff not even in the contract for the balance of $1200.
And the final tidbit here which is making me scream.....she said that now that she's planning on giving me the $1200 she expects the DW be finished and primed by Christmas AND she expects that I will not let anyone else on the schedule that they now have priority over anyone else. I blew up at her. I told her that those people that are on my schedule are people who I committed to having done weeks and months ago and couldn't due to her shenanigans and endless indecisiveness. And that I told those people I'd be working their jobs over the next two weeks cuz I was waiting on a tile order and a tile sub to finish so I could finish the rest. hell no, didn't matter to her, she expects to be priority 1 now that she's paying me "in advance." So during this 2 wks she expects me to hang the screen door, install a light and some other electrical work that I didn't mention she threw in.
At this point I"m ready to friggin sue, but ain't got nothing to sue for. She's brought out ever evil bone in my body that I so easily keep under control for anyone else.
So long answer to your question, I have no friggin idea where my money stands now because I"m not doing that extra work in order to get the $1200 when it's not in the contract for that $1200. I'm ready to blow my brains out. This woman is either insane (probably), mentally challenged (likely) or thinking she owns me (probability) or all 3 (that's it).
Once again you have lost control over this deal. In my opinion, time to pack it in. Forget the money get your stuff and give her the name of the tile sub and a drywaller and go home.
This will not end and will continue and frankly you, due to anger and frustration, will continue to get in deeper and mishandle the situation.
Next time get the damn thing in writing!! Don't do change orders without written change orders!! I know you have heard all this but you are still handling this thing the same way you did in the beginning and you are in the same sorry position.
Time to get out and call it an expensive learning experience. No matter what happens you will not get money out of this broad without doing 3 times the work for the money due. Go elsewhere and make the money. DanT
What a freakshow. Time to cut your losses and get the puck out of there bro. Sorry to hear that it's not getting any better. Tough time of year to get beat for $1200 too. Live and learn I guess, huh? Hold your head high, pack your crap, and move on out.
Your hospital bill will far exceed $1200.
Get out now and cut your loses.
I've walked on one or two jobs and lost money but gained an education.
One thing I did on a job was to take a builders lean out on the customers house for an additional $300.....trust me, that gets their attention.
Be sure to get photos before you walk!!!
You will never get paid and she has you held hostage and will continue to do so as long as "you" allow this behavior.ALWAYS get EVERYTHING in writing from here on in or I may have to come there and kill you....lol.Be walkin' with the sun in yer face and hot wind to yer back ;)
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
...I'm ready to blow my brains out...
well, then do the world a favor and take her with you...but don't - - you are too close to the situation and that makes it a bigger deal (in the large picture) than it is - -
I don't know if you are still soliciting advice, but from the info presented, IMO, there are two good choices - -
1. pack up and get out of there, don't talk to 'em, don't return phone call, put it behind you, let go of the outrage and frustration, place the incident in the basement of your memories, to be dredged up only when you are tempted to do a job without a contract -
2. finish the job 'gratis' - get the minimum done and get out of there, and don't take any of their tainted money - - they are undeserving, unlovable, and unworthy - act like the Christ - (give them the number of the (forewarned)tile sub ("I'll be back for the next step when the tile is done") and don't hang any screen doors - Christ had a way of teaching lessons...)
anything else is just fighting more of the battle that is eating you alive - -
free advice, remember what you paid for it...
good luck, peace be with you...
"there's enough for everyone"
There are people like this all over. Basically she is insane. One of the things people who are insane want to do is to draw you into their own nastly little insane world. There is only one thing to do, and that is to get away as quickly and as cleanly as you can. Leave a letter setting out your position, not too detailed, keep the personal stuff out of it, just a list of what you've done and how much money you require from her, and leave.
If, as seems unlikely, she sends you all the money she owes you then you may choose to start again in a more formal way, everything in writing, stage payments as work is requested and completed.
Best of luck
John
Pyro-
I wrote a reply to you, but sent it to Bucksnort Billy.
Please read it anyway.
I've got a cold and am enjoying a lot of drugs, but they are interfering with my thinking.
BTW ... you still realize this is your fault?
All could have been prevented ...
anyways ....
Me ... I'd go back. Pick a time when both are home.
3 little words ... "GIVE ME MY MONEY" ...
ok ... maybe that's 4?
and I'd not shout ... or yell ... just firmly state ...
"GIVE ME MY MONEY" ...
then sit ... and wait.
They say No ....
calmly walk out and head right to the magistrates. You've got all this doccumented ..... Right?
Right?
OK ... by now U do ....
U don't need a signed and written contract to file a lawsuit.
All a contract does is show intent.
Tell the truth ... break it down ... have it doccumented.
The fact U are suing some big time attorney on your own will tell the magistrate yer pretty serious ....
I'd want paid the entire $1,200 for the work and time I've already done and wasted.
BTW ... now ya know to never bad mouth/think another guy unless U were there to see what kinda sh!t he had to walk thru first ....
Plus ... don't give them any tile or drywallers numbers ...
I'd tell them I'm telling everyone I know to run from their phones if their number shows on caller ID .... I'd certainly not give anyone I consider a friend to them ...
I'da called the whole show off when the tile floor install fell thru again ...
On the positive side ...
It's "only" $1,200 ....
Coulda been worse ... I'd still visit the magistrates ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I cant add anything that hasn't been said.
One thing that I might rehash is what Buck said, don't give your tile guy/dw guy the job, hell you want these guys to remain your friends?
For $1200 (I know its not chump change) I would move on down the road. It cant possible be worth it.
Doug
Edited 12/4/2004 12:48 pm ET by Doug@es
Never proactively sue an attorney if you don't have all your "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed (and it sounds like you don't). They are relentless tigers and 99% of them actually enjoy these petty disputes. Legal messes can entangle you for a long, long time and suck up gobs of money and effort. It's much better to do what you can to extricate yourself from this mess asap.
- Rob
stroke
Going to small claims isnt the same as going into a courtroom for a full blown law suit.
Doug
Given that judges and sheriffs are elected - maybe even prosecutors - I'd do my homework careful like before heading to small claims court. There may be power relationships at play that our unfortunate friend is unaware of.
I've been to both and they're both unpleasant and still suck up boatloads of time - more than the average person thinks before they get into it. Besides, the homeowner is an ATTORNEY for pete's sake!!! You don't think he could quickly elevate this to a status where it's beyond small claims court (typically $2k-$5k limit)? Then you're talking about hiring an attorney at $100-$200/hour, legal research, depositions, court time, etc., etc. Much better to wrap things up nicely and walk away to live another day.
"Much better to wrap things up nicely and walk away to live another day."I think so too.But first he needs to TAKE CONTROL of the project.I hinted at this way back when in the thread when I mentioned about the associate that would call me and it would take 30 minutes to get to the problem that he called about.What needs to be done is that Pyrotechie needs to work up a list of what needs to be done to get the job FINISHED. The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM!Then give then that statement. From then on he is deaf, dumb, and blind.Any problem, any change in tile, any change in direction, etc, etc, he just hands her a copy of the statement and keeps on working ignoring anything and every thing that she says.It will HARD to do, but it is really the only way.
Never proactively sue an attorney if
screw that. I've been to the magistrates 3 times ... won 3 times.
each time ... the other side had a lawyer
magistrates don't tend to like lawyers making a simple case complicated.
Watched it happen all three times ....
the day I'd let an attorney intimidate me when I know I'm right is the day I stop directly charging customers money and go work as an employee somewhere where it's safe ...
magistrates and small claims are to level the playing field.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff is correct. Go to court and get your money, if need be. There is a similar system in the UK, and the people who run the courts hate it when one side tries to complicate the issues.
The mere fact that you are there asking for your money will impress the court. Genuinely bad tradesmen tend to stay away from courts if they can
If it goes to court, keep it simple. Detail the work you did, tell them how much you have been paid, tell them how much is owing. Read a copy of the letter you sent to the clients telling them the same thing, in other words, how much money they owe you.
If you show determination, I doubt the clients will let it go so far.
John
I suggest you contact your own lawyer and put him/her on a retainer for this. Don't go directly at the client through your lawyer, but don't even speak with the client until you've gotten advice on strategy. Be very wary of the husband. He may be just as frustrated with her as you, but loyalty lies with family.
Write a letter presenting your options and have it reviewed:
1) You can pay me what you owe me. It is carefully itemized here with an explanation of what I originally quoted and the actual costs. You may now hire your own people to finish. I will not recommend names.
2) You can pay me what you owe me now and the materials now for the below-detailed work that I will finish. I will finish work X, using helpers A and B. All workers will be paid hourly at the end of each shift. Husband must agree to be in the home whenever work is being done and the workers must be left undisturbed except for when they ask HOs to come and inspect work.
3) If you reject (1) and (2), you will next see me in court.
Then ask them to sign one of two prepared statements. The first is a contract to continue, on your terms. The other is a statement of refusal to pay.
caveat reader: I am NOT a lawyer.
Congrats to you. However I stand by my advice. The best way to win a war is to avoid one in the first place (leaving aside his admitted mistake of getting involved w/this client in the first place; now it's time to get out asap).
I have some rental property. In the 'old days' I'd fight them tooth and nail and win my small court cases, then spend - sometimes - years chasing them down to collect the money (oops, no one told me back then that winning means virtually nothing...collecting on a person that moves and changes jobs frequently is a whole other matter!). Nowadays I calculate the cost of my time (at least $100/hour I figure - spending time w/my kids is important these days), resources, legal costs, court time, etc. and take appropriate action. 99% of the time I avoid it like the plague.
- Rob
For any one interested, this is the "Rest of the Story".
Uggh, Bill, you how I eat my words, how my arrogance and inhumility made me speak judgementally without knowing all the facts. I ASSUMED.
At least give me the credit that the guys work was shoddier than hell, I mean it's true, none ofus would do that kind of work. In the face of all my issues with this HO everything I've done to date is of utmost quality, so I reclaim some pride there.
But oh, taht post, rereading it just hurts. Hey I'm not out to belittle anyone, so I was off the cuff it seems. AS time went on I feel like I got more the wiser why he left. I was able to deal with it for a while but man, I learned you can only take so much and I couldn't take it anymore.
Thanks for keeping me in check and humble. Even if that was not your intent in posting my orig message it certainly made me reel back in and regret what i said.
Piffin, yeah...I was focused on the "no longer referring me part." It ticks me off, ya know, that I was making time for her, busting my jewels to help her, backing up work for others so that I could help her, and then when she said that I had a "all this and for what, not even a referral, she's so unappreciative" moment. It really eats at me, still does despite all the encouraging words form others.
She is on meds, painkillers, etc which all works together to make me feel bad for her. I mean maybe it's not all her fault and I just need to deal with it, ya know?
You were the second to suggest she's just trying to keep me arouind due to her lonely needs. Maybe so, I have to wonder if you're right, and suspect you prob are on this one for sure.
You stupified (I think I made that word up) yourself by getting sucked in.
Andy, uh....that other word you used....discombobulated or however you spelled it. You didn't happen to make that one up, too, uh....did...you?
Andy, uh....that other word you used....discombobulated or however you spelled it. You didn't happen to make that one up, too, uh....did...you?>>>>>Uhhhh....I don't think I did make that up....I donno, maybe I did...lol...if nothing else I'm sure I spelled it wrong....unless I made it upThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Heyya Pyro...
I'm late getting to this party, but as many others have said "TDT in spades" My first "big" job for hire was an absolute horror show, similar in many ways to yours. But...I stuck it out, was proud of my results, and learned a ton (tuition indeed!). You'll be glad you saw it through! Always feels nice to know you took the high road. If it helps, I'm coming up on the end of another, largish job, and due in no small part to the school of hard knocks, I seem to have nailed it on both time and costs and will be making some very nice money while enjoying myself, and having a thrilled client.
Hang in there!
Paul
You didnt make that word dicombobulated up!!! Well, maybe you did make it up and then told it to my mother ( I thinks thats where I first heard it)...... do you know my mother?? how do you know my mother???
-m2akita
be in Nelson, Nelson Cnty that is!
Moms are always right:
Canadian Oxford: "discombobulate", v.tr., to disturb.
Again, thanks, Andy for the good words and encouragement. Maybe I'm too nice a guy for this biz, I dunno. Geesh, allI wanted to do was help someone and do what I felt was the right thing. I never envisioned this.
I'll confess that with the first change she dealt me I thought "Cool, I can make some extra greenbacks than I bargained for." Then with the second I dittoed that same feeling. That's why I allowed those two changes with ease. NEVER imagined it'd have gotten to this level. I discovered that there is a limit to how much money you want to make vs. what amount of effort is involved to make it which could nullify the value of the profit quickly.
Your points were well taken, so thanks, I'll take your advice.
Andy-
Years ago I had a customer who wanted a penalty clause in the contract- so much per day if I didn't finish on schedule. It was a big 3 story addition.
I told him sure, if I can have a clause saying I get a bonus for each day I finish early.
Neither clause went into the contract.
Hey Pyro, did you post sometimng about this situation a couple of months ago?
Backin late Aug, before this turned sour on me.
First, ask Mike Smith about "Beltloops" ....
Second ... what's with basing business decisions on whether or not this lasy is going to give referals? What's up with that ... they're earned ... not expected.
Third ... sick wife, money problems, health insurance issuse ... and you're thinking of becoming a FT GC?
Forth ... no way ANY $8K job can be done for $4K!
Either the 8 or the 4 is 100% wrong ... rethink #3 based on that alone.
now ... my little bit of "help" ... yor're stuch and screwed .. don't matter much at this point who's to blame ...
when I find myself similar stuck .... I just deal with the fact I do indeed have to finish what I promised. As my promises are actual written/signed contracts.With going back, keeping y mouth shut ... and doing what ever it takes to get the job done ... and done nicely .... I reevaluate my schedule. Then I mentally lock myself into it.
And bust a$$ to get it done. I don't think about the money already lost. I think of the money ahead. I forget about all the materials I paid for out of pocket .... or the long hours I've already overworked ... I focus on the end.
Forget how much into the hole you are ... let's say $6K outta that "supposed to be $8K" ... that leaves $2K ...
sure $2K ain't gonna dig you out of the financial hole ... but it's all ya got.
Then play mental games ... 3 weks of work left ... great ... $2K for 3 weeks ain't "that" bad ...
Now we're doen to 2 weeks ... hell ... 2 weeks for $2K ... that's $1K per ... I can almost live on that ... these 2 weeks won't be so bad ...
Down to the final week ... $2K for 5 days work ... that's pretty good. I might actually not throw up on the drive in to work now ...
Down to that last day ... $2K for one day! Fantastic ...
get your mind set right ... downright lie to yourself.
Do the work that U promissed ... ignore the hell out of the lady ... nice or not ...
Then proudly and loudly stand up and yell ... "DONE!"
then ask for the check, say cash money is fine ... and I'll drive ya to the bank if U like.
Here's the final invoice ... I am not leaving your house without payment ....
I'll make myself comfy here on the couch in front of the TV while you find the checkbook ... Thank You very much.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, that was funny, yet I know you're serious also.
As to the $8K and $4K thing.....I'm basing thta figure on charging half my labor rate that I'd estimate if I were doing this from the get go on another bathroom. Bathrooms are profit makers, for a similar bath remodel such as this I'd be in the $7K to $8K range.
In comparison to my competition, my neighbor just settled on a contractor who charged $6900 to do a complete bath gut and remodel for a bathroom half the size of this one I"m stuck on right now.
I'm curious about something - You said the woman was the talkative one, right? Is the Husband more reasonable? Could you maybe meet with him privately and reason with him about what's going on?
Sorry diesel, for not answering. Most on here know from prior topics that I am a computer programmer. I built a career out of it only to have the computer industry betray me and send all the jobs overseas for dirt cheap labor. REsult is lots of us computer guys are seeing the umemp line. I was camping on the unemp line 2x between 2001 and 2002, and the threat has been around my present employer the last few months that cuts are coming where 22,000 employees will get massacred in yet another "downsizing" bloodbath.
But for the last 5yrs I been slowly building my own HI biz. this year it's finally started to take off to where I finally feel it's time to start transitioning to it FT. As evidenced from my post, I have a lot yet to learn, but am determined in every important way to succeed. While this experience has been a pain in my side, I have to concede to being thankful because I still am getting a salary from my career job where I can absorb something like this. Better to learn this lesson now than when I have the risk of going hungry for a week or two.
I dont care how big a remodeling job, you can usually keep a crapper operating with little down time for an old woman.
I think you need to have a serious talk with your client. You were contracted (verbally) to do "X" amount of work for "X" amount of money and your working schedule was approved.
Now the scope of work has changed from a simple tub install to a greater amount of work and your working hours have become unsatisfactory for her.
Your dilemma also sounds like someone is going to be unhappy at the end when it comes time to settle up
Give her a choice. You can offer to let her contract elsewhere to have the project completed or you can finally put everything in writing including a completion date and a cost association for change orders at full price.
Since you like to use the word "opted" ,why not just "opt " out of it?
Would I WALK off this job,heck no, I'd RUN off.!!
Oh Man!
I was on a job like this. GC left me incharge with the client and I was only the finish carpenter. There was tiling and other stuff that I had no control or knowledge over.
HO was nice at first then a hysteric. Called out a factory rep 3 times to sign off a 2x french door I hung perfectly as she didn't beleive the weatherstrip needed to seat itself so the door poked out 1/16" in the middle. Said I was colluding with the rep. She was in tears several times and me once( just kidding about me.. but almost!)
Gives me chills to thingk about it. Bottom line it never got better only worse. Once I was done GC walked off the job leaving behind $3000 of materials and money owed him. And he was lucky! We ended up doing an internet search of her name and she was a constant pain at city cousel meetings demanding this and that, threatening to sue (and did initiate legal actions against the city twice!)
Certified letter outlioning the breaking of contract and terms was refused by her and we've heard nothing in 15 months.
I gotta say It could be good business practice to do a background search on prospective clients if they cause even minor concerns before contracts are signer or promises made. Sneaky I know but we never would've gotten involved with this one if we spent 5 minutes on line.
I just turned down a lucrative side job that gave me concern. Friend actually but he and his wife couldn't decide on anything and would argue in front of me, then quickly come to a conclution. I bid $600 for cleaning and putting a layer of PU on old cabinets(about 4 hours work!) and when they acceptted I BS's my way out as it was a nightmare waiting to happen.
Cr.
the best responce was from Mike Smith, about the 4th person to respond I think.
It's curious Pyro, hasn't been back...must be workin' weekends<G>Me, I wouldn't be dealing with this lady of the house. I would be talking with her husband. This couple is in their late sixties, yet refered to as elderly. Geeze, my dad's in his eighties, and no one would ever confuse him with some elderly geezer. Maybe something else is going on. There's a lot of medical conditions that make people indecisive, and some become more pronounced as one gets older. I don't think I've heard of any contracts here. The first GC walked off, allegedly with 1900 beans above his work completed. And, the husband is a lawyer, hmmmm, think he's any good?I'd have a sit down, get paid what was owed, and take it from there. I can understand doing a good deed, and I commend that, but, I can't understand complaining about doing it. Hope you do work it out, though. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
It's nice to be nice, if ya know what I mean, but most of us here have been in a similar situation at one time in our lives and we mostly got burned for our troubles. "Tuition Payments", yes?
Mike Smith hit the nail right on the head here! Nothing I can add except live and learn, my friend.
Blue...this was not meant for you!
Edited 11/21/2004 7:55 pm ET by ikor
Buck, tried talking to husband, BIG MISTAKE!!!!!! see post elsewhere where I elaborated.
I had a signed contract for the initial work to finish the demolition the other guy left undone, and install the whirlpool. the contract specifically stated that due to lack of my time only the tub would be installed and in working condition and that finish repairs such as floor patching, DW patching, etc, woiuld occur as needed. It spelled out what was to be done and payment schedule in 3 phases.
I ammended the contract 2 or 3x, I forget which now, due to changes. Changes just kept coming so I let future ammendments go or I'd be rewriting the contract a few times. Stupid decision.
Hubby is a PA state prosecutor. He said he did a run on the prior contractor and found he had a criminal record and that he had no assets, so he made a decision to not sue, he'd be throwing good money after bad with an unlikely chance to colllect a penny.
Contracting ain't easy, every job can develop into more than you anticipated. Sounds like you've gotten lost. Either the job got over your head or you've lost focus. You don't like the client and they don't like you. You have to ignore all the stuff you spoke about that has no bearing on the job. It doesn't matter who you're working for, old, young, rich or poor. You were hired as the man who could get it done and your focus should not get clouded beyond the task.
At this point you have likely lost your motivation. You don't want to deal with the customer and you think you're taking a beating money wise. You're probably beating yourself up too. Unfortunately you made the deal, half price or not. You may only be showing up every now and then, but they are living with it 24/7. There's really only one thing to do and you know it. Go work on it all night, all weekend or whatever it takes starting now. Once you get back on track, it won't take long. You will get the money and they will get the bathroom.
We can all empathize with you, we've probably been in a similar situation. Hopefully, you feel a little better after venting. I'm sure you feel overloaded. Usually when this happens, everything else seems to follow. The days are short now, crazy stuff is on TV, holidays are creeping up, before you know it we'll be shoveling snow. Don't look at everything, it will make you nuts. Start one step at a time but keep making those steps. Pretty soon you will catch up and you might just have a couple extra bucks come Christmas. Not to mention that your blues will change to the satisfaction of accomplishment.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You think right and write well.
Is a 'Hammer' a carpenter's therapist?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hammer I have to tell you, while everyone else has been encouraging, and I don't mean to diminish what the others have said, but that was the most encouraging post I've read so far.
You're right my motivation was gone, oh, about 2 weeks ago when she said I'd not be recommended by her to anyone. that was such an incredible slap in my face, felt like a bloody nose or a black eye, I dunno which. But that just hit me. Never felt so unmappreciated in my life.
Yeah, I guess in my orig post Iwas venting, yes I feel better but that is due to your encouragement and that of others. I mean I don't want to be chastised for trying to be a good guy and so far I've not. Instead all seem to understand and give good advice. That has returned my motivation to see this baby thru to birth.
Wow. Does this bring up a lot of bad memories for me?
I think you need to have a sit down with them. You need to explain to them what you need to finish the job: A clear and final plan, no interuptions in your work time, an agreed price for the work, and whatever other conditions you require. Explain why you need to have these conditions met in order to finish the work to their satisfaction. After you have finished your explanation, ask them if they would like you to continue with the work. Be as apologetic as you want and blame it on your lack of experience but be firm.
Maybe this is unprofessional but I think as long as you are calm and reasonable and willing to face the client directly, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Some people are impossible to satisfy and it is best to get them to admit this.
Pyro, given that the husband is an attorney you definitely need to get a release in writing from both of them. I agree w/the gent that said you should sit down with both of them and hand them something in writing that politely details all the work/changes (leave out the petty arguing stuff) you've gone through. Give them a full/realistic price to finish the job and if they don't like that then tell them - in writing - that you'll provide them with the name of three contractors they can call (perhaps your enemies???) to finish up.
- Rob
I've read most of the posts so forgive me if I restate something. First I highly recommend written contracts ( no matter how "small" the job) as well as change orders for every single change (even if no cost is incurred ) signed by the HO.I used to live in good old PA. This was so common it nearly drove me from the business. I was always working for the low bid. This leads ( as others have stated) to frustration, disillusionment, and heartache. I would recommend the Means guide even if all you do is point out that the "Average" bath Remodel is $8,000.00.
I just finished up a large remodel for a friend. We were in the same situation even with a clear contract. It is all that saved me from unbelievable disappointment and financial woe! We had the heated discussions, etc. One day I said we all need to meet and sit down and calmly discuss this. We sat down and I said, "what do you think is the cause of this situation degenerating like it has"? The wife just ranted and raved for 20 minutes or so ( I sat quietly and took notes) and cried and accused me of overspending etc. I then asked the husband, " do you agree with all that she asserts"? He said that he could see most of her points but stated that he believed that I would be doing what I was currently doing. The Father in law ( who the addition was for) had other opinions agreeing with neither of the first two. At this point I pulled out the contract and line by line read it back to them and said at the end of each sentence, " Have I done this?"the answer was yes at every point. Now I looked at all three of them as well as my copious notes and said, " I need for the three of you to decide who is in charge...Which one of you has the final say in changes?" They argued about this for about ten minutes at which point I broke in and said, " Is it any wonder that we don't see eye to eye even with a clear contract? You are a house divided against itself." " We are friends at a difficult impasse...right?" agreement. "how can we work together to solve this problem?" We wrote down points of contention or concern and then agreed how each would be handled. I know this was not in the contract and technically I didn't have to do any of it, and yet I can not tell you how much work I get from former "problem" customers because I kept my ego in check and really tried to meet their needs. People will forgive nearly anything if you truly strive to be true to your word. I do not put customers in their place though there are times I certainly could. We all have to follow the bottomfeeders who screw up the reputations of our noble calling; to create order from chaos. The best way I have found to do this is to be true to your word NO MATTER WHAT THE COST! Learn the painful lessons as quickly as possible and move on. If your reputation is so frail that the word of one dissatisfied customer will crush it, perhaps you need to seriously question what you are doing. If on the other hand your reputation is so stellar that a dissatisfied customer seems like such an anomaly, people will dismiss it outright. Please post the end results; I look forward to seeing what happened. I wish you the best! CONTRACTS with SIGNED CHANGE-ORDERS NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!
Miami
Edited 12/2/2004 12:00 am ET by miami
Here's what I'd do:
Hope you get out of this quick, Neil
neil.... lawyers are people too....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, thats all right if he dont work for lawyers, hell I dont work for guys named Neil!
We all got standards.
Doug
He's a prosecuting attorney and they're in financial trouble? That's odd isn't it?
Pizza, no, not odd at all. My wife has same medical issue as his wife, and it's financially devastating to us AT TIMES. Not always. In this womans case she has additional complicatoins from her illness that necessitates very frequent therapy and doctor visits. I can see how it will drain them when it drains us. Fortunately for us we are not in debt up to our ears as they apparently are with their home, autos, etc. My family adn I are pretty forunately in that we're clear on all financial fronts as far as major debts. We have one major debt and tha'ts it..our home. My wife just got disability awarded, this will offset the sporadic increase in medical costs that prior to disability compensation were devastating to us.
Edited 12/3/2004 2:26 am ET by Pyrotechie
...Finish the work and then....
ya, but...this case has no intention of allowing him to 'finish' - it's dangerous to psychoanalyse from this distance, but from the information offered, there's deeper problems here than an unfinished bathroom...
cut your losses? sure but I would try to learn more from the situation first.no offence but it sounds like you could use some improvement where it comes to setting boundries.. why not think about this situation like a class in a subject where you could really benefit from learning more about.Cut off your expectations and just think.. "what would ..*some a$$ hole in your past* say.." and then SAY IT! see what happens. I'm a huge wimp, i cried alot in school, got picked on alot. my parent encouraged me to be sensative, etc.. So I can relate to having trouble setting boundries. But all it takes is to disconnect your emotions from the situation. In a situation like that, think about her pulling that #### to try to get a loan from a bank, or some other hard-#### buisness. They have a bottom like and wont let a peon like that disturb their buisness. And then remember that you too have a bottom line.. Dont be flexible.At least try some things(ways of communicating without taking a loss on every conversation) talking more assertively, whatever.. writing on a message board is not a sufficient medeum to express everything that I want to say but I REALLY reccomend getting all the skills out of the situation as you possibly can, even if your throwing money away. in the long run you may be saving much more $$ than your loosing here because you'll gain more tools at dealing with the occasional wingnut like this.
-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
I admire your integrity...once in a while, everybody gets in a bad spot because of it.
If I were you right now, I would walk off. I would tell Mrs. that I came to work, get paid for that service, and not play games. Outta there.
I'd cut my losses now.
I have a feeling she'll call me back. If she wanted to pay what was owed, I might talk, but I wouldn't waste a second more of my time unless I had a good check in my hand that made things square.
I'm not getting in any deeper.
Dude, do we have to come out there and boing your brain into working again?<G>
Pyro-
I agree with a lot of the others; walk away before you get in deeper.
I had a similar situation years ago- the clients kept promising to pay once I did one more "little job" for them. I finally found my backbone and told them that I'm not doing any more work until I was paid to date.
They then started saying that my work was inadequate and refused to pay unless I corrected it.
I left anyway, and about a year later, got a check form them. I never called them back.
Edited- 'Snort, I meant this for Pyro.
Edited 12/3/2004 8:05 pm ET by Shep
I don't know if anyone has suggested that you talk to the husband and explain your situation to him. Sometimes the husband does not know what is going on and would fully understand the situation. I would talk to him and maybe chat with your own lawyer for 1/2 hour, you might be surprised at how much advice they can give and sometimes for free.
Just try to get clear of this the best way you can otherwise you get sucked into conflict and stress, anxiety and all those other things you want to avoid. It will probably cost you, that is too bad, we all need to get paid for our work but unfortunately our business has these risks.
This just gave me an idea for a new topic, RIP OFFS I HAVE KNOWN.