I’m a DIY in Ohio and have been soliciting bids on a new house that I would like to build of Rastra (or similar material). Every builder I talk with is reluctant to enter into a conversation about this, which I think is progressive architecture (vermin and fireproof, structurally robust, energy efficient, uses recycled materials and optimizes the use of concrete and steel).
To everyone I’ve called, I’ve told them that I understand this is a relative unknown and that I’m willing to shoulder the risk involved in using the material, to the extent that they only need provide labor and material and a reasonable overhead and get the job done. The opportunity for them to learn this material is obviously available in this setup.
Not one of a dozen has taken me up on even reviewing the plans or meeting me at the jobsite to go over this. Some just say a flat no, others say they are too busy, and some say they are unwilling to undertake the risks.
What the hell has happened to your trade?
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I do not know anything about your particular product, but I'd be interested in learning more if you could post a link or two.
as for the project
you just have to find the right person.
Fear of the un-known and the associated risk is what's keeping them from taking interest in your project.
A lot of guys might look at it and have to ask themselves why they would take on a project they know little to nothing about when they can fill the space with other projects they know they can complete. From both a Financial and "mechanical side" it may not be appealing.
Good luck finding someone.
Finding the right person is obviously the problem.
I'm allowing overhead and profit, and am doing what I can to encourage a perspective that allows consideration of things not normally relevant to a project such as mine (read environmental concerns in a time that is concerned only with the short - and I mean really short - timeframe).
Yes, I can understand those that are truly too busy - but there is not even any curiousity about what I am up to here. I feel like Toyota, someone who offers a high efficiency vehicle and cannot find buyers, in spite of the fact that they offer the vehicle competitively priced.
All I want to do is get a house that's responsibly built, that involves a little imagination and courage.....
Have you lost everything?
Have you lost everything?
Not sure what you mean there.
I'm not even in business or myself so take it for it's worth.
Put yourself in the builders shoes, if they are busy or can stay busy with jobs they are comfortable in, know the risk etc. what is the advantage of taking on your project?
I'm not advocating whether or not this is right or not, but it may be reality.
All I'm saying is that, when confronted with the opportunity to learn something new, at virtually no risk, something that might be of benefit to someone beyond their own little world, what I'm seeing is a turtle's response, to just pull their heads back into the shell they know.
What's up with that? And how did this place get this way?
This looks like a splendid opportunity for you to learn something new.
Go for it, what do you have to lose?
Your time, your money, your wife and kids starve while you learn one more way of losing your assss.
Everybody has to eat, turning down jobs that are guaranteed income to work on an unknown doesn't make sense. (Actually, anyone who is self employed knows there are no guarantees.)
If it turns to sheet half way through, are you gonna say to your Builder "Gee, I hadn't thought of this, guess I'm gonna have to make your truck & house payment for you this month while you figure out how to finish my house?"
Not likely. Rasta sounds great, it's kind of an inside out ICF thingee if I remember right. If you are so set on it, take the chance. Quit your job and learn something new.
Joe H
Edited 10/19/2003 12:16:07 AM ET by JoeH
Edited 10/19/2003 12:17:30 AM ET by JoeH
It may come to that. Obviously asking someone to study and perform, at my expense, is beyond what we are capable of.
I somewhere have or had a Rasta manual. Paid about $25 for it as I recall.
About ¼" photocopied how to with lots of photos. Photos were pretty useless, photocopy didn't do much with black and whites.
Figured I'd been screwed on the book, if they were willing to charge that much for such a low quality book, I wasn't impressed already.
That and the freight made it a no go. It wasn't lack of interest on my end, it was a bad job on their part.
I think they market through individual franchised dealers, but manufacturing facilities (then?) were few.
It is an interesting product, or sounded like it, but the individual I dealt with turned me off on it.
Joe H
So are you saying that the product is better than the people who represent it? And if so, what does that say about who we are?
I have no idea whether or not the product is as good as advertised. I dealt with an individual who left me feeling as if I'd been had. He had $25 of mine, I had a bucks worth of copies.
-------------------------------------------------------
And if so, what does that say about who we are?
As Tonto said to the Long Ranger "What's this we sh*t, Paleface?"
I have no idea who you are, other than someone wwho comes across as rather put out that no one wants to chance their financial well being on your dream.
---------------------------------------------
Another thing to keep in mind is your local Building Inspectors. If they have never seen this product you are going to have to convince them too. Every question they have is going to require an explanation from someone. If they are priicks, you could be in trouble there too. Believe it or not, it happens. Time disappears and no work is done until they are satisfied.
Good luck, lose the attitude.
Joe H
I'm not asking anyone to use their dime. I understand the risks in doing something that they've never done before, so I'll carry that part. The only thing I want is their expertise, and hopefully their enthusiasm for something different that might make a difference someday.
Thanks Joe- you sent me on a funny wild goose chase cause you called it Rasta instead of Rastra..................
After cruising thru the web to find out what the heck this stuff was ???????????
There was Rasta Pasta, Raste reggea,Rasta applejack,Rasta Gear,and finaly
Rastafarians....................
You guys are killin me............:-)
ROTFLMAO
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Edited 10/20/2003 12:27:27 AM ET by Pro-Dek
Aparently, you're supposed to smoke a sacrement as you build this stuff.
I think there may be some risks with even possessing that material!
; )Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
"...when confronted with the opportunity to learn something new, at virtually no risk..."
It's pretty naieve to think that there wouldn't be any risk. No matter what you say (or even put in writing) you can easily change your mind down the road a bit and sue the builder. And the courts will likely find in your favor. The builders know this. You need to keep it in mind.I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to combine marriage and a career. [Gloria Steinem]
All I'm saying is that, when confronted with the opportunity to learn something new, at virtually no risk,
If you don't see the risk a contractor would be underatking, I suggest you take the one fella here up on his offer to do the job. You'll each get what you deserve.
Between you and your contractor, yeah, you've agreed to take the risk. If the job ends up as a disaster, it's his name that going to get sullied.
And the unknown factors lead to unknown risks - just how far are you willing or able to absorb those risks?
Virtually no risk? Not in a pigs eye.
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
Edited 10/19/2003 9:00:22 AM ET by Bob Walker
Maybe Jeff could make it work! We haven't heard what kind of up front payment or profit margin Jeff was thinking about to take the job "with no risk". ; )Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
That's 'cause I don't know anything about the project ...
neither does Keith or Bryan ....
but looks like the guy may have a coupla choices if he really wants to build something. I've only heard the name rastra ... have no idea how the system works ....
but probably thinking along the same lines as Keith and Bryan ....
I can read pretty well .... most of this new stuff is written down somewhere ....
and I'd bet it's kinda/sorta similar to some other method ....
also guessing the prices depend just how similar it is ....
Like any non-typical construction ... you always have options .... they're just gonna cost more..... even with "no risk" ......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff,
I went to the web site posted earlier. It looks similar to the styrofoam forms that are used to build walls which concrete is then poured into. The Rastra forms may use less concrete than most of the styrofoam types out on the market.
Anyway, I requested some information from the company so that I could have a better look at the product, and how it is to work with."Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
No need for you guys to wait for the USPS to deliver the information.
http://www.greendepotinc.com/products/RASTRA/Files.html
I read an article about the stuff a while ago and the users and owners are delighted with it for the most part. I have not heard anything from those who have lived with it for ten years to demonstrate long term satisfaction or to expose potential problems. I am equally intrigued by it.
It is not you typical foam ICF system tho there are similarities. It canbe cut with a hand sawe but I wouldn't use my best one for it. The stuff is a little gritty and abrasive from the portland and silica. The blocks are larger than typical ICFs by far but also stiffer/stronger. You need to glue them together with non-expanding foam.
Some blocks end up with a crown in them from the manufacturing process but they tell you how to correct their errors. That's pretty nice of them.
They also remind you to have plenty of materials on hand to deal with blowouts when or if they happen.
The wall bracing recommendations seem a little crude compared to other systems but anyone who has worked with crete forms and ICFs should be able to handle it, given a little common sense. Don't know if I'd want to do it with a couple of HS students though.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Here are some more interesting links exposing the good, the bad and the ugly of this material
http://www.icfweb.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3225&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=Perform+Wall+Assembly&Forum_Title=Ask+the+Pros
http://www.buildinggreen.com/products/rastra.cfm
http://www.biobuilder.com/AboutRastra.html
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Hell after reading all that stuff I think I'm qualified to do the job, wheres the guy at again?
Anywhere close to Texas.
Doug
That's what I figured you were thinking. Judging from about a thousand past posts you are obviously a practical guy who could handle it just fine (and I'm sure Bob would be glad to support you in any way he could... ; ) Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I would look for a diferent ICF form than that one . how do you know that all of the little tunnels will get filled as the collumns are filling ? will you use watered concrete ? or a lot of super plastisizer? Why not use open ICF forms that let you use regular concrete ? Open forms let you place rebar with ease ,give room to wire it . Lets you see the concrete as it fills the form . most contractors know how to use solid wall forms , no matter what they are made from . Aluminum , steel , wood or foam.
Maybe the contractors already know about these forms with hidden passages. They might not want to have anything to do with them.
My opinion of the Rasta form is that it is a step backwards . So many spaces that are devoid of concrete . Kind of like building with CMUs with the holes horizontal .
I think maybe you meant to address that to someone else.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
"they only need provide labor and material and a reasonable overhead and get the job done. The opportunity for them to learn this material is obviously available in this setup."
You left out the word "profit"
Why would a successful, busy builder want to risk his reputation on a time and materials only job?
Others are aloof to work with DIYs, especially when said same come across as knowing more than the builder himself. I am not implying that this is the case, but it is a possible answer to your question.
Or the major problem is simply that they are too busy.
There is a similar project here, in that a NYC archy came up with a design for a flying wing roof structure and all steel framing in an area where neither have been seen before. Then said archy announced an extremely agressive scedule and a tight budget in a market where every builder is extremely busy doing what they know and making good money at it.
A year after the projected completion date, they have finally begun excavation work. I think they have matured considerably in that time.
Patience is a must in this industry. Learn to cultivate it - or just go ahead and shoot yourself now, and save someone else the trouble later.
Excellence is its own reward!
All of the prospective builders were allowed to propose whatever profit they felt necessary.
I've seen those Rastra blocks and I'd love the chance to give them a try. Keep asking around, maybe try to find the "Green" building guild in your area. You might try poking around at http://www.greenbuildingnews.com (I think that's the address). They should be able to point you in the right direction.
Why are we so conservative? Fair question.
I'm not a builder. I'm just a one man, small time remodler/hack. But I might have a touch of insight here (accidents happen).
I love to try new things! I'm always ready to try something I've not done before. I learn a lot that way. I stay challenged. I've built up a pretty good inventory of skills by doing that.
But what I've not done is make any money. The only time I make money is when I do stuff that I know really well. And I'm pretty much at the point where I don't think I'm going to be looking for new kinds of work so much.
You state that you've allowed the builders to budget in profit, but if the builder isn't familier with the process, then there is always a chance that no matter how it is budgeted, there will be no profit (and maybe a loss). I don't try to not make money when I do something new. Quite the contrary. But something always comes up to bite my budget in the a$$.
Do what I know and make money or do something new and risk no profit and maybe loss?. This is a choice that is becoming easy even for me. Do what I know and make money.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
we're conservative because most of us know someone who has taken it on the neck with the "greatest advance in building ever"
Aluminum wiring ,inner seal lap siding ,EIFS ,fire retardant plywood,
Poly butyl piping ,early foam in place insulation .
Multi billion companys push the stuff -it goes bad they can afford the hit lot of small contractors caught in the middle of the law suits go under.
There is a big difference between what the company sells and the reality of any construction project Murphy was an optimist .
Not trying to discourafe you if I was in ohio I might be interested
But your question was Why are conr=tractors so conservative its survival
Survival. So is that what it's all about? A little meager for the lords of the earth I think.
Never mind I would'nt take on a job for you!
I'm a carpenter I build things I don't claim to be Lord of anything
Your attitude is I got this gret product and I'm going to Let you build my house Ain't I a great guy.
Obviously the contractors in Ohio are smart enough to figure out the equation Perfect product + perfect client = all problems are the contractors fault .
All I was looking for was someone to build this house, and if it takes high school kids over professionals, so be it.
All I was looking for was someone to build this house, and if it takes high school kids over professionals, so be it.
When I started our place I knew little about concrete, that I wanted somebody to pour for me. Sounds simple, but at the time few concrete walls were being poured here. All were block. My engineered plans scared the few cast-in-place contractors there were and I got astronomic bids. "Why?", is not a good question.
My solution was to leave the cabinet shop I was running for a builder, hire a couple of guys who knew less than I did, and have at it. We weren't fast but it's here and been sheltering us admirably for 10 yrs. Since then I've poured quite a few buildings and my proselytizing has gained several converts. The Passive Annual Heat Storage rant, that is, as concrete walls finally became normal in our neck of the woods.
You need to lead by example, not suggestion. If you're anywhere near Carey, I do have a contractor recommendation for you.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Having read this thread through in one sitting-----gotta say it's been months since I had so much fun.
I don't have the slightest idea what Rastra block is, nor do I care.
But---it's pretty clear that the problem isn't conservative builders---or the material in question.
BTW---I loved that line where the guy plaintively wails" but I am willing to shoulder all the risk" Ha Ha Ha,ho ho ho he he he. that's a good one.
>I loved that line where the guy plaintively wails" but I am willing to shoulder all the risk"
That's where my opinion falls, too. Does he know that that really means...all that really entails? I doubt I could enumerate all that entails, and I have a little practice with things unconventional. It's not just switching to time and materials or cost plus since guessing the # of hours is kinda difficult. It's things like, is there any effect on liability insurance, and will your typical subs be interested in the job or do new ones have to be searched for, and do you get paid for research hours, and what happens when the unpredictable happens (let's say, the block gets delayed in shipment for 4 weeks) and the job is on hiatus till they're delivered--gonna pay the contractor for that downtime? In my niche, a lot depends on the delivery of one key material--if the supplier screws that up, you potentially have a crew that's slotted the job into the schedule and has maybe travelled to the location and can't do anything else till it's delivered. Who pays that time while they sit idle? Or something is done wrong and has to be redone....might even be contractor's fault.....gonna pay to have it redone or gonna forget that "shoulder all the risks" line and expect them to correct their mistake? Boy, it can get complicated quickly in ways the prospective owner cannot even begin to guess.
That said, there are plenty of contractors who are drawn to the non-conventional and have the right business model for it. I find 'em all the time. Just gotta find them himself. It starts with an attitude adjustment where he doesn't expect everyone to be as interested in his project as he is without it becoming the other guy's character flaw. If he's not able to sell them on it, then maybe there's a flaw in the product or his sales technique, rather than in the builders' tolerance for risk. As practical advice, whoever mentioned getting referrals from the manufacturer is on the right track. Those who promote alternative products need to help their customers use them.
Where in Ohio?
I'm in Pittsburgh and plenty dumb to try new methods. I'll drive anywhere if I can make a buck. Never worked with rastra ... but willing to learn. I'm booked solid till a bit after the new year.
When do ya want to break ground? Ball park ... sometime around spring might be good for me.
What do ya say?
If yer closer to Indy than Pgh this probably ain't gonna work ..... but I ain't afraid to drive I-70 .....email me ....
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
DB,
I never heard of rastra before, so I went to their site and checked it out. This is what it says on their home page in big green letters:IF YOU WERE ABLE TO PLAY WITH LEGO AS A CHILD,
YOU ARE ABLE NOW TO BUILD A RASTRA¯ HOUSE!
They never had Legos when I was a kid, and most of the GC's I know never played with them either, also being too old.
But I'll bet you could find a bunch of high school kids that could do it for you. And it would be a heii of a lot cheaper than hiring an old fart like me.
Clampman
If it takes high school kids to build this dream, then so be it. The professionals, apparently, are too busy looking out for things other than dreams.
And that says it all, doesn't it?.
I've got your answer for you. Attitude.
After at least three - maybe four - guys here aswered that they would like to give Rastra a try, and others have tried to honestly answer the question in a helpfull, factual way, you seem more determined than ever to carry a chip on your shoulder and do battle against the whole building industry.
You are offering builders a wonderfull "opportunity" to learn something new, and act offended when they tell you "Not interested"
I'll wager that they all sensed that same chip on your shoulder you are displaying here, and smelled a trouble-making customer. Their instincts told them that it was time to be shy.
I would take on a Rastra job, but I'm less sure I would get as far as a first appointment with you..
Excellence is its own reward!
Then perhaps you, like the others you speak of, lack the courage of your convictions. Excellence is its own reward, but it has nothing to do with business.
Don't wate any more electrons trying to bait me. I've got more courage than a matador and don't mind risk. I thrive on a challenge.
What you are looking for is a ground squirrel stupid enough to run out in front of your car to play chicken with the tires. To you it's a dream, to the builders, it's a business. You are not on the same page at all.
Try reading your own posts heere in the morning when you sober up. Maybe we can make headway after you do..
Excellence is its own reward!
To you it's a dream, to the builders, it's a
business. You are not on the same page at all.
Maybe that's the problem - thanks for your excellence!
I wouldn't take on a jib like that unless it were on a cost plus basis. As mentioned before, there are too many unknown variables. But with cost plus basis, the builder is guaranteed a set profit margin or amount (provided you have the money or mortgage approval to back it up). Keep looking, you'll find your guy/gal.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
http://www.lazarobuilders.com
Suggestion: Why don't you go talk to your local Building Dept and see what they think about this material? If anyone has used it, they will know.
Sooner or later, you are going to end up there so you might as well start there.
If they seem willing to work with you on it, why not get a permit for a small garage building and try it yourself?
You'll need to excavate for the footing to whatever the local frost requirement is, maybe contract out the concrete work to the finish grade and then build the rest yourself. By the time you're done you should know whether or not this is what you want for a house and if you can do it yourself
Where is the local supplier for the block? I think when I looked at this product there were only 2 or 3 sources in the US. Freight was gonna be astronomical.
The supplier is no help locating a builder in your area? This stuff has been around for awhile, ask for names and numbers of anyone in Ohio.
Joe H
You should be flattered that you got such a big response. You obviously know how to push buttons. If you are so indelicate with strangers, how do you handle your friends, coworkers, and family?
Email me and let me know where in Ohio you want to build. If it's in NW Ohio, maybe we can talk."Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
I'll be ready for another challange about march. Email me.
SamT
DBERINATI-
Sorry bud, but I'm gonna call it like I see it.........
If you look at most of your posts, they are one or two lines of philosophical crap. If you're so in love with this new age building product, build it yourself. You attempt to berate our industry to motivate us for your gain.....you're sooooo transparent! I've seen customers like you before and there is NO WAY I'd get involved!
I don't think it is a real "unsolved mystery" why no one wants to work for you.....
jocobe
Edited 10/20/2003 6:46:52 AM ET by JOCOBE
I usually chime in on the side of the DIYer during threads like this, but I gotta say that this HO seems to have a real attitude -- "I am extremely cool to be using this wonderful new product, and you guys are SO out if it." I don't blame the contractors for being leery about the prpject.
Perhaps a less combative attitude would lead to greater success.
Hiya DBER,
Could you tell us where in Ohio you are located at?
I just saw a good point above...
If you are a self-professed DIYer, and you probably by now know more about Rastra Blocks than the contractors that you've spoken-with, and are comfortable with the risks inherent of the (relatively) unknown, it may be a great opportunity to do this one yourself. Perhaps you could hire some hourly labor or tradesmen to assist you (assuming you are otherwise engaged 40 hrs/wk).
Another idea; call the manufacturer and find out where you might get willing and experienced installers...you may have to import them from out of town (costly I'm sure, but that is the price of being on the cutting edge).
No sense in hammering our profession...your local contractors apparently have no interest, whatever the reason.
I must also add that you might want to be introspective about your attitude toward your local contractors....seems like there's some bitterness toward them for not doing what you think they should, regardless the fact that they're not obliged to do anything for you that they perceive to be contrary to their own interests. Yes, we are craftsmen, many of us artisans and...thank goodness, we're becoming more and more like businessmen every day!
Best of luck with your project.
The professionals, apparently, are too busy looking out for things other than dreams. And that says it all, doesn't it?.
No it doesn't but you're onto something here, Professionals that is, being professionals they realize they are in business, the business of making money, not the business of dreams, the dreamers go out of business, I've worked for a few.
Now I can understand your frustration, but this really isn't the place to come and rant against contractors, generally speaking it doesn't go well. There is a wealth of experience and information here. Try to utilize it, not alienate it.
Neil, I think the thing this guy missed is that he wants someone to follow his dream and hasn't noticed that they are busy following their own.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
You're not doing much to endear yourself to the pros here on the forum. Could it be that you're one of those PITA customers who run prudent builders away and rationalize that they haven't the balls for the job rather than understanding that they may not be fools (who rush in where angels fear to tread)?
Never had lego when you were a kid????
Just how old are you???
alright Ten Penny. Enough of that.
Clampman
I hope you took that in the spirit intended; I forgot the <G>.....
10d,
What's the <G>?
Clampman
10¢,
I didn't have leggos either, would get a dumptruck load of cutoffs from lumberyard for birthdays. Bet I got socks older than you! (g)
KK
How old are some of you guys, Legos been around since the 60's.
Doug,
We had lincoln logs.
The end is in sight for me.
I am older than Mike Smith and he remembers when the Dead Sea was still alive. (But look younger)
KK
The end is in sight for me.
LOL, man dont write it off yet!
Doug
Legos was when I was starting college. Erector sets. Gilbert, American Flyer and Lincoln Logs.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Lincoln Logs, Erector sets, and real steel Tonka Trucks. Oh Yeah, and playing cards for high rises!
Legos came along in time for the kids.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Ah yes!!! Tonka Trucks you could ride...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I had a great fire truck with telescoping ladder that two of us could ride! It was great..
Excellence is its own reward!
I had all of that including the lego's, I still have a metal, yellow tonka dump truck somewhere in storage and a steel tractor trailor, my grandfather gave me with my initials and his companies name on it from my 1st B-Day that's in my room now
didn't have any highrise cards though.
Lincoln Logs, Erector sets are far better toys then legos anyway.
Edited 10/20/2003 8:11:36 PM ET by CAG
Lionel... All metal.. 3 rail.
Still have my American Flyer S gauge...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Yeah! Those were the days when most sailboat masts were of wood and kids of all ages played ball with Louisville sluggers.....
I'll take the resonance off wood over the "clink" of aluminum anyday.
And don't forget "Tinker Toys"....they were pretty cool, too, when it was too snotty out to be making your own toys.
How could I forget the Tinker toys?
Gotta be a tossup whether it was them or the Lincoln Logs that got the bigger workout. 'course there was a lot of time studying the dynamics of motion with the Slinky on the stairs..
Excellence is its own reward!
Hot dam... we went to the same toy store....
Everything tonka had to offer...
Schwinn bikes.
Americn Flyer sleds and tobbagans
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I just got done playing with some Lincoln logs with my kid, they aren't made as good as they used to be though.
I had the Erector sets, and all the other stuff to, but I do remember Legos. No Schwinn for me, my dad worked at Sears part time and I had the first banana seat, ape handle bar, bike in town.
How many times did you bust your lip open on that American Flyer?
I spent more time on the saucer sleds. There was a big gravel pit nearby with cornices and steep banks.
Ya Hoooooooooooooooo!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Or pinch things..... ROAR!!!!
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
"real steel Tonka Trucks"
The original monster truck!
The Tonka lineup went real well with all the farm implement toys. Back then my Dad owned the local International Harvester dealership. I had an inside track to all the farm toys. Amazing the hours you can spend as a kid playing in the dirt and having the best time of your life. But it is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. - Herman Melville
Move the planet and never get off your knees...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Man, you guys were from money......Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I know we were poor becaus ethe Redball Keds were out of our price range. So I couldn't run faster, jump higher, or make freinds with all the neighborhood dogs..
Excellence is its own reward!
My favorite toy at the time. The flouroscope in stanley's shoe store. We lived above stans. Think maybe it was a buster brown thing.
Any bets my feet fall off b/4 I die.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Man, my grandfather had a shoe store (Shaub's, the oldest one still operating in the US), the flouroscope was a gas. And, now that I think of it, probably why my feet look so weird. Bet mine fall off b4 yers<G> EliphIno!
billy
You too huh? Sure was fun after school. Had to get the plastic "invisible (wo)man" I got so interested in bone structure and stuff. Lately I'm thinking I've noticed them glowing in the dark ever so slightly........
And now there's warning labels on a drywall bucket. Go figger.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 10/26/2003 7:27:31 PM ET by calvin
Hey, my cousin's still got the 'scope, throw yer "invisible woman" in the car, we'll find out what makes her tick<G> EliphIno!
I dunno billy. It's been a long time and well, I don't think time has been good to the woman. I know it hasn't done me many favors.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I can still remember getting a pair of P.F.Flyers.........
a 24" Huffy bike from the local Western Auto...........
my first chemistry set-the first experiment was the stink bomb, didn't score any points with my Mom on that one....................
my brother's American Flyer train set-we made plaster mountains and tunnels, painted streets, built fire stations, factories, then when I was older, added an H.O. slot car set to the set-up. Who cared if the scale didn't match?
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
I never was a train guy, but what really got my time and passion by the time I was twelve or so was plastic model cars. Man could I chop and customize!
And my very earliest memory was of a pair of plastic cap shooting six-guns I got for my second birthday. Came with a felt cowboy hat and real leather holsters. I think I even had chaps to put on when I rode the range on my tricycle down the sidewalk..
Excellence is its own reward!
Revell (sp?) models. Cars, planes, ships and those guide wire controlled balsa wood / paper airplanes.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
My brother was big on the trains. I was big on the model cars. Just like you, I chopped 'em, channeled em, cut and hinged the doors, used the wires from grain-o-wheat bulbs to make spark plug wires, guitar string wire for brake lines, custom paint, super-detailed the interiors.
Revelle and AMT where my favorite brands, but I built a few Monograms also.
I still have a bunch of that stuff somewhere, if I could only remember where.
Remember the Ed Roth, and the Rat Fink series of model kits? They were wild.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Man, you guys were from money......
No not really, at least I don't remember much of it. :) Long story short....he started out as a parts man and eventually bought into the business as partners with another guy. Farm crisis hit and the bottom fell out. He's had to bounce back several times in his work life. Last time about 18 months ago at age 61, his position where he was working was eliminated due to downsizing. Right now he's become the town handyman. Never seem him happier.But it is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. - Herman Melville
Piff... Radio Flyer disks.... Hillside with thorn apple everywhere.
Rugby... I had an uncle that worked at American Flyer trains. Oh the collection...
My dad's bud worked at Tonka.
Still have those trucks and trains...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
And American Bricks: http://www.architoys.net/toys/toypages/ambricks.html
http://www.personal.u-net.com/~lilleker/con-am-bricks.htm
http://www.chem.sunysb.edu/msl/lego/apb.htm
I think legos were a derivative from them
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
I was and still am to a certain degree fascinated by model trains. Loved the big panoramic set-ups that took up some guys whole basements or garages. Mine was pretty limited....an HO scale set up on an old dining room table. What I wanted to do at the time was to replicate the rail yard at North Platte. Didn't get to far on that probably because girls started to divert my attention at the time. Oh well, live and learn.But it is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. - Herman Melville
Well, Good night all,
I guess we've solved the mystery of why contractors are so conservative.
We live in the past!
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
I had some little bricks, but not like Bob linked to. These were just bricks, about an inch by half by maybe a thin quarter inch.
Can't remember any name associated with them, just looked like miniature bricks.
Best gift came from my Grandfather. Hammer and nails. I was about 6 or 7, Man, was I a building guy.
Built my mother a garage for her Pontiac. Nailed it right to the body. This did not go over too well.
That was fun, that hammer and nails was as good as any gift I ever had. Sure beat the hell out of pajamas & underwear for Christmas.
Joe H
You might find the following to your liking:
http://www.gardentrains.com
Last month I saw a garden railway exhibit in Columbus that recreated several historical stages in honor of Ohio's bicentennial. Absolutely marvelous. I could have spent hours exploring all the details.
http://www.fpconservatory.org/calendar.html
I love the idea of garden railways, but what I would have loved to try is a scale model of the Ohio canal system running through my garden. There's just enough change of elevation to make a handy dandy series of locks."Our whole American way of life is a great war of ideas, and librarians are the arms dealers selling weapons to both sides."-James Quinn
Theodora - thank you for that link to Franklin Park. I go to Columbus fairly frequently to visit the S.O., and he'd never mentioned this. I will be sure to visit there when I go in November.If you can't play a sport, be one.
Don't wait too late--I think it finishes in early November. And a lovely Dale Chihuly glass exhibition just opened there. Not to be missed!"Our whole American way of life is a great war of ideas, and librarians are the arms dealers selling weapons to both sides."-James Quinn
The Chihuly really caught my attention. The S.O. just caught heck for not telling me about Franklin Park before. He'll be doing a bit more research before my next trip to Mud Sock.If you can't play a sport, be one.
I still got the first HO train that came on the market. Saw it this summer still in the boxes up in the attic.
Clampman
I've built in Ohio. Every house is built pretty much the same.........vary too far to the right or left of status quo and you have buucuu problems with local township/city inspectors. Most builders know this and realize in Ohio it's price and square footage that matters to the buyer. The money is in high priced cookie cutters.
Move to New Mexico or Arizona......and get an attitude adjustment. A guy would need to form a working relationship with a home owner wanting to do what you propose. Get off your high horse or your dream home will always remain just that...........a dream.
Where in Ohio? Ever think of running the job yourself? We are a company that helps you run your own project. UBuildit if you want more info please post. We have build ICF Insulate Concrete Forms houses and steel framed houses a lot of homeowners have the same problem. Contractors don't want to try something new. $$$$$ I think you need to think outside of the box!
Tim
DBERINATI,
Have you contacted the people that manufacture RASTRA? Or the supplier? Maybe they could supply you with a list of contractors that have worked with it.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Okay, I'll say it slow..Where at in OHIO?Buckster volunteered, I'm in Canton, Shazlett is Akron..ish, others are all around. I have a crew that can do it bottom to top less the mechanicals (in areas where licensed mechs are required) The idea of laying blocks of rasta is tempting(are they lighter than the Haydites I soooo love?)
If you drive 3 miles north of me, you are in a very hard county inspector wise, mine is fair, and one south, they don't have inspectors at all, so we run the gambit of building law. So where are you planning on building this? We are booked solid till spring, and are filling that currently. We are feasting at the moment, next year we could starve...who knows. Keith
Edited 10/19/2003 12:40:47 PM ET by Keith C
Kieth, you're either shouting or far sited :-)"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
I think the best way to get a bid on a new product like this is go to the supplier and ask them for known builders/installers of this super new product.
If they have none in your area, get all the information on the product that you can and then share that information with your builder when he comes out to meet you and your architect.
Here is a site for the product http://www.rastra.com/wi_ra.htm
We are all trying to learn from new products and techniques and are always willing to level with a client on whether we are confident enough to tackle these new avenues. Usually when we do it is not always in your favor.
If you are really sold on a concept or idea then try to find someone as eager as yourself to pursue this avenue. It sounds like you may be better off putting an add in the newspaper.................Great building potential for aggressive Firm............
Maybe you should start your own distributorship...................
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Bob
I'm only part way through this thread but the quote on the product's web site seems to say it all
IF YOU WERE ABLE TO PLAY WITH LEGO AS A CHILD, YOU ARE ABLE NOW TO BUILD A RASTRA¯ HOUSE!
looks like a DIY's dream product
PS really liked the deck you posted
what?---you guys had toys growing up?
I am with Calvin----you guys must have been rich.
We may have only had a hole in the road to live in (yeah, I know sheer luxury compared to some) but the bits that fell off the cars made great toys
You had a road? Lucky bastahd.
but the hole leaked when it rained
It's a cake-walk to build with and you're willing to take ALL the risk. Been there, doing that. All of my spare time and then some is presently being spent becoming the only qualified SIP builder in my area. Of course I won't really be interested in "building" with SIPs after my house is finished so it's probably ultimately a toss up as to how smart I am for building with the smartest form of construction out there.
The builders you've talked to probably have a pretty good handle on the same reality. Why learn something new when the chance to build with it again is pretty much fully dependant on selling the new form of construction to clients who have never heard of it? Most of them aren't hurting for a shot at your dream right now.
You are among some excellent contractors here. They are doing their best to communicate realistic answers to what appears to have been nothing more than a rhetorical question on your part designed to give you grounds to deride the profession most of them are very proud to be a part of.
You have two or three leads from interested contractors and honest answers from the rest of them. I don't know what else you were looking for but I'd go ahead and tip your hat, cash your chips and follow up on the leads.
Probably the best place to discuss the merits of this system further is in a new thread in the construction techniques category. Best of luck to ya!
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I do also sense a bit of an attitude here, but in the spirit of BT and the free exchange of information that would further the trade, I'll try to answer your question to your satisfaction.
I am a custom builder who specializes in what you might characterize as "green building" and have tried pretty much every "alternative" material and method you can think of.
In that mix, along with straw bale and many other really kooky ideas, I have built four ICF houses.
I'm getting to where I kinda know what I'm doing, and I guarantee you it is not as simple as they make it sound.
In the first place, I would encourage you to find a reputable builder (not a one-time owner-builder) who has actually built with Rastra and would do it a second time.
Then talk to a conctete pumper who has done more than one and ask him what happens when the forms blow.
Then ask a framer how they like installing interior walls when the bracing was inadequate.
Then check with the window installer and ask him how his first time out went.
Then find an electrician and a plumber who want to work with it.
Then find a trim carpenter who wants to install trim over it.
Then ask for some chain of custody documentation for these "recycled" materials.
Then find an engineer who specializes in thermal performance and ask him if there is any way this material can actually meet the performance claims.
Then, if you do decide to build this yourself, check the weight of those "Legos".
There is a lot more here than meets the eye.
OK. Next.
In this industry, according to Robert Morris and Associates (financial analysts)we are all working for a profit of right around 3% of gross.
We are conservative for the same reason as farmers -- if what we do doesn't work, someone starves. (So to speak.)
We are also conservative because we pretty much tend to learn the hard way and we can only afford to learn so much in any given year.
In answer to what has happened to our trade, well, it's a long sad story, but suffice it for now to say that the economics of industrial production had driven enough of the industry down to a self-regulated lowest common denominator that we can only be competitive if we are both highly efficient and effective.
If all you have ever worked with is wood and someone brings you bricks there could be trouble.
As a community, I think most of us here take a great deal of pride in our work and avail ourselves of every opportunity to better ourselves. Throwing an attitude isn't going to get you much farther around here.
If you really do want to build something durable, energy efficient, environmentally responsible, and beautiful, I'm sure you can get this done and I'm sure that there are people here who will help in whatever way they can.
Best Of Luck,
DRC
Well said!
Just wondering if you are still interested in trying to get your project done. Let us know.
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Looks like DBERINATI jumped in, but couldn't swim. : )
Maybe he's off pouting on some other forum.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Maybe he'll come back and start a new thread...........
Y are buidlers so mean to me.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Or simply entitled: WAAAAA!!!!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I just finished a new home that was a comboog Rastra and timber framing here in the NW. The house came to @$250,000 which is expensive for this area. As far as rastra goes, Stay Away!!!!
Rastra is a poor, poor product. It is expensive. It is heavy. It is brittle. It is not as strong as a standard ICF. ( there is talk in thie area of 'banning' this type of product because it gives a post or colum of concrete instead of a solid wall.) You'll need a crane to set the blocks, Plan on using a few cases of spray foam. Don't worry about breaking the blocks, you can't stop that. Don't let them get rained on. Don't try to find someone to do it unless they've done it before, even then be careful. The outfit we subbed to used Rastra before and still made many mistakes. Just because they say you can stucco and plaster directly to the product, Don't count on finding a sub to do it. Do Not tile directly to the walls far a shower or anything else. Moisture seems good a penetrating through that wonderfully porous block. None of your subs will like it with good reason. Don't plan on hanging heavy pictures from it. Be sure to put sleepers everywhere you want to hang cabinets etc.
I could go on but you should get the picture.
Do I like anything about it?? If you need to punch in a water line or whatever all you need to do is find a cell and drive a rod through the wall anytime. As a first timer you'll do great with it, Just have lots and lots of foam and a pruning saw.
But first, look at other ICF (arrx)
Jonathan
aw, Shucks - are you saying that even after getting past the lawsuits and re-organizing, the company still doesn't make the perfect building material?????????.
Excellence is its own reward!
I think I hear the voice of experience. <g>
DRC
Oh yeah, plan on a blow out or two, most likely in a corner. You'll need an engineer for a special concrete inspoection. Plan on spending a few days bracing eveything possible before you pour.
The good news when you break or miscut a block, just glue it back together.
Building inspectors seem to really really dislike, for good reason.
Stay away, Or call me Fly me down there and I'll consult for you and run the boom while you are setting blocks ;)