The question is weather or not I hold a double standard. I don’t think I do, but the fired guy says I do.
Background:
While doing a house a friend of the owners comes in and ask me to bid something for her. When I get to the job, it is to little for me, and I defer her to one of my guys who might want to do it. He does the job and all goes well.
The guy who I gave the job to has insurance and charges a good rate, but doesn’t work for himself. He used to but didn’t have enough work. When I get slow he has things “on the shelf” he can do.
Today:
Another one of my guys is talking about needing something for a side job. I inquire who it is that he is working for. His response was, ” You know that lady that comes over here with the owner all the time.”(not the same lady)
I asked how he got her as a customer from my job. His explanition was that since I gave the other guy the lst one, he thought I would naturally give him this one.
I knew nothing of the job. He didnt ask me. He doesn’t have insurance. He, in my opinion, is not capable of working alone.
I fired him at the end of the day, with explanition. I also contacted my customer and asked her to tell me if the “side job” started going bad. I feel he has part of my reputation in his hands right now.
I feel what I did was right and justified, do you agree?
An inch to short. That’s the story of my life !
bstcrpntr — I hope to grow into this name.
Replies
It might have been better that you not alow your employees to ever do sidework from contacts from your job.
You can do anything you want nearly.
Same thing happened here today. I wont go into it.
You dont need a reason as long as you dismissed him correctly.
That said , I can see where its double standard. Since you asked.
Tim
I don't think it's a double standard because he never got the chance to say yes or no on the second job.
JMHO.
Your's is just as good.Corporate business today measures everything by the size of the silver dollar.
It seems you over reacted and showed a double face. Is this guy business savy? He came to you first before doing anything, that should have meant something. You could have simply laid out your terms and gone from there. Sounds like you were in a bitchy mood or looking to fire him. Perhaps you can legally fire an employee for moonlighting but intending to? You'd better hope he's not legally savy either. If he's an indie-contractor what're the terms of your contract? No contract but you treat him as an emp? Good luck there as well. If you have an employee whom you allow to stay with his own insurance and such, as an indipendent contractor, but terminating another for the same behavior that is discriminatory (even if he didn't have all his paperwork in place). I'm not sure he even should consider working for you again. Do you have a document with his signature explicitly expressing his understanding of your company's operating policies? Doesn't sound like it or if you do you'd better hope he can't prove that you violated your own policies with the other worker taking on sidework.
Breakfest went well, and yes i bought. He will be returnign to work on Monday. I explained why I see a difference in the two situations and I think he cought on. He is a very reliable person, and showing up means a bunch to me. He asked about insurance and we discussed cost. The tools part is the major issue, he doesn't really have any. He told me he already realized that he "cut his own throat" because I didnt give him the job, he didnt know the other guy had insurance and didn't realise that was an issue. We set him up a tool wage o his check, so to help him there. He took the day to work on his side job and asked to borrow his company truck, I let him. I think all is good now.
Sorry I didnt opst earlier today while you guys were, BUT I was at work.
thx to all for the humble pie.( I hate the taste, but love how it has made me feel today)
An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Congradulations !
Im very impressed with your decision.
Tim
You know Tim, there's been some serious smarts on this forum the past few days.
Scary.
Nice job and best of luck to bst.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
well done, bstcrpntr... talk about a win-win situation; i think (and hope) you'll be seeing dividends from this for a long time!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
You are. Nicely done... Buic
bstcrpntr,
Have a couple of questions for you first before I post a response.
#1) The lady that was having work done by your fired employee contacted you or the fired employee about having the work done?
#2) WHAT did you explain to him as the reason for firing??
Thanxs,
m2akita
Asked him if I would be interested in such-n-such, and he said, "no, but...."
I explained to him that I feel like he stole work from me. I also explained that if he was hinking about a side job at work his mind wasn't on what I was paying him for.
An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Asked him if I would be interested in such-n-such, and he said, "no, but...."
That part bothers me. He had no business telling her that you didn't wan the job. he should have said "probably not but I'll tell him you asked. And if he says no, I'd like to give you a price".
Like you said, he wasn't sneaking the tool, or the job, so apparently he was ignorant of construction courtesy. You should consider bringing him back.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
We are meeting for breakfest at 6. Didnt want to do sitdown at office, or at our homes. We all have kids to feed, he is a good hand, and he called as I was about to call him.
He is confused, I think you might be right anout not knowing the courtesy thing.
Neutral spot is good right?An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Neutral site is best. make sure you buy breakfast. And then take a box of doughnuts to the jobsite.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Three of the most powerful words I know are "I was wrong".
I read something many years ago that has stuck with me. I'm not sure who said it, but it was something like "as soon as a man starts making excuses in his mind for his behavior, he should stop and think about WHY he has to make excuses to himself" - I always thought that was a pretty good rule to live by.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
bst, I'm impressed. The fact that you fired the guy promptly means you aren't a wishy-washy guy who can't make a decision, and the fact that you're able to admit when you're wrong REALLY impresses me.
How did the breakfast go?
jt8
"Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Mann Jong
the helper shot him in the head and borrowed his trakhoe to bury him
sorry to ruin the ending for yall but stay tuned tomorrowDue to recent budget cuts the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.
Sounds to me like you're not real clear whats what with your guys...Seems a bit harsh to fire someone after you find fault with one thing he does and yet you're not sounding all that clear yourself. You sound really off base to me.
The guy even comes to you asking for something (what by the way?) for this job like nothing he did was wrong? doesn't sound to me like he was trying to do anything underhanded unles she's a total dolt...but you hired him so I'm assuming you must have thought he had some positive qualities.
I think one strike and you're not out unless its very serious and this doesnt sound like he was going to hurt anyone.
Also, he sees you giving away other work to your guys..you set the pace right there. That should have been private business but if you allow that in the open...
I think lessons can only be learned if one has the understanding to reach and as a boss I think you hold some of that responsibilty. Why wouldn't you talk to the guy first...Kinda harsh bro
Edited 2/23/2006 10:51 pm ET by andybuildz
Damit, I think you are right, at least to soem degree. I knew nothing of the job, and this guy has only been around about 6 months. The job I passed along was to a guy that has insurances and pays his taxes, its a real business 3 months a year, whe he isn't working for me. The new guy has no insurance and was charging $15.00 cash. He wanted to use a tool for the job. If you don't have the tools don't take the job.
OTOH
He wasnt trying to be sneeky, he (i believe now) was saving me the hassel of going to look at something he knew I wouldn't mess with. I think I will call him and maybe have a chat.
I might of over reacted, maybe carma made me post here so I could see thatAn inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
YA know what...you call this guy back and have a sit down with him and let him know you felt bad/wrong...you may end up with one of the best helpers you ever had! You might be starting an all star team doing something like that. Its far and few to see a boss admit he's wrong.
We all have a lot to teach one another...its when we don't think so that we start losing control. Ego trippers suck!!If Blodgett says Tipi Tipi Tipi, it must be so!
Apparently the guy didn't know it was wrong, or he would have hid it from you. Not knowing that it was wrong, he got the boot instead of learning something and moving on.
What you did is very common in this industry, so I'm not knocking you personally, but it's a perfect example of being able to trust most GCs as far as you can throw them. Probably the same goes for most employees.
I work and mentor carps of all experience levels and the one thing I constantly remind the younger guys is you never know when you'll do something the boss doesn't like, or the boss is in a bad mood and you'll be looking for work, or the boss just plain goes out of business one day.
The flip side is that I encourage the younger guys to upgrade their skills and stay marketable. There is almost zero/zip/zilch job security or loyalty in construction so if it's possible to learn more, earn more, or simply have better working conditions then working for someone else is a no-brainer--fire your boss.
My personal standard is that the first time an employer can't pay on time or can't drum up 40 hours of work I'm out of there pronto. A past employer said he didn't know I'd walk at 35 hours, so I'm no better for firing him for something he didn't know.
On the other hand if the side-job employee is a knuckle head and this is just one of many examples of his bad judgement, then getting rid of him for that seems well justified. Besides you're the captain of the ship and you should be able to write the rules as you see fit and remove those who don't mesh well with them--written or not.
Cheers,
Don
The more of this I read the worse I feel.
The kid is not stupid, he is just misdirected.
He tries hard and is a good learner, and good worker.
Maybe a sitdown is in order here.
I have never second guessed myself after letting someone go.
An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
The fact that you are second guessing yourself, and seeing there may be other sides to the story, is a very positive sign imho.
Let us know how the sit down goes.
Man u guys can be harsh.... guys who work for me can... use my tools... let me pay for their drug rehab... have me get them out of jail... let me buy them trucks & tools... show up 3 days a week... and I'm just happy they come to work and don't steal my stuff... People you can stand to work around are just so far and few... I put up with alot... I do always work every guy a full 8hrs or pay him for 8 hr min even if there is nothing to do but resweep the floor ... if they show up they get paid a full day period... if i don't have things lined up for em thats my fault and they still have bills to pay so they get paid... maybe things are a little different in the south but everyone who works for anyone also does side work... every fireman does some type construction on his days off... here your guys won't show up if their sidework needs to be finished... that or it's opening day of deer/duck/bird... season... If you hire hispanics... the same guy might not even show up everyday...someone will be there sometimes 2 or 3 with nothing said but... "my cousin he work today too"
as for your guy... yes you were harsh... but it's your rules... just nice to let em know what the rules are first....
pretty sure you'll do the right thing... oh and let him do the side work...
p
Sounds like a good time to sit down and write out what is and isn't acceptable in this area (side jobs), and then communicate that to your guys.
I always did side jobs. Never took a job from the boss'es contacts, unless he gave it to me (whic happened quite a bit). When I ran crews, I let my guys do side jobs, meaning they knew it was OK with me. But they couldn't use company tools on side jobs without permission. And they couldn't solicit work from our customers. And they could take time off to finish a side job if they asked ahead of time, but they usually found that it just wasn't worth the trade-off when they put their side-job income next to their reduced paycheck.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I agree with the guys above about sending mixed signals and the firing being to harsh. After handing the other guy a job there is no way this guy would know what he did was wrong. If you lay out a policy then everyone needs to know what it is. As long as they know they need to adhere to it.
On the other hand I am really impressed at your reaction to everyones view. You are a big man to review a decision that affects a man livelyhood. Congrats! Don't forget to clear up your position with the rest of the crew so everyone understands. DanT
Bst-
I worked with and for one of the world's smartest men - my dad - for years. Despite his encyclopedic knowledge and keen intellect, one thing about him that drove me frikken' crazy was that he absolutely refused to admit when he was wrong. He would debate, discuss, argue, and when his back was absolutely against the wall - he would rely on that old standby, "Because I said so, dammit."
Having now matured a bit myself, I have come to learn that we do make mistakes. from the standpoint of intellectual honesty, sincerity and respect, when that happens, you need to acknowledge it too. Andy summed up the situation pretty well. This was a bit overboard.
Make it work out.
Enjoy your breakfast.
Don K.
EJG Realty Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I give side jobs to my guys often, But I always remind them of the terms of the work:
For Employees-
Only my business cards on jobsites.
Any requests for work are run by me first
If they have more work for that customer, it also gets run by me
Loaning of tools are at my discretion.
I follow up with a Phone call, if the job goes bad for any reason, they will be as accountable as if they were working for me, this means going back and making it right, or don't come back to work for me at all, this keeps them from taking on things they can't do.
For subcontractors
Unless it is directly related to the work you are performing, refer all questions of any nature to me!
Great post PearceServices!
Please explain the last sentence though. I don't understand the "unless it is directly realted to the work" part.
blue
Blue,
It always seems that when a sub get real cozy with my clients, it ends up with some type of problem.
I've had a Plumber that took a complete basement remodel on a job I brought him in on. I had an electrician that spent so much time upselling to my client that he charged me for delays because the homeowner was always "interupting" him. etc etc etc.
I want my clients more comfortable with me and my employees than they are with my subs, so that when oportunities and referrals exist, I am the one who determines whether or not I get a piece of it.
b.c......Your a good man........be kind to yourself.
I see something a bit differently than most of the other responders.
I think your gut instincts were correct in the first place. But I do think you overreacted by firing the guy.
Guy number one is/has been, a professional on his own. As you said, he has the insurance, the tools, etc.
Guy number two just wants some extra work on the side, and doesn't want to foot the responsibility for doing things right. Basically he wants to stay under your wing, but do as he pleases anyway.
When you have breakfast I would explain to the guy that if he wants to do work on the side, he should look to guy number one as an example of the way he himself needs to carry himself, business-wise, and personally, if he expects to be given the leeway guy number one gets.
Absolutely bring him back to work, but make him understand that side-jobs are not just an extension of -your- job. If he wants to do them, he has to have his own tools, his own insurance, and he has to prove that if something goes wrong he can and will handle it himself, instead of running with his tail between his legs and leaving you to clean up for him.
.......
I REALLY like Jim's quote ! I'm making that a part of my quote collection.
=0)
.......
As for the never admitting being wrong, or saying I'm sorry, that is discussed later in this thread...
There are a few old timers in this forum whom I would put in the ring with DonK's dad anytime. Some here will jaw, justify, ignore, color over, and just about any other thing they can find to do to keep from admitting they were wrong. God forbid you ask them to offer an apology to someone. They might melt or something...
It's an awfully fragile ego, that will not say "I'm sorry".
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Good on ya for thinking this through some more. Remember, good help is hard to find and it sounds like he's better than average. It sounds to me like he just doesn't really know the proper etiquette in handling sidework requests in the culture of your company. Maybe he's green, maybe he's not the brightest bulb, or maybe you just didn't clarify it well enough. Regardless, it sounds like you've recognized the problem and are on your way to solving it.
So let him off the hook and then let yourself off the hook too. We all make mistakes. The smart ones have the stones to admit them and fix them. Nice stones dude.