See the attached pic. It is what the HO calls a “nap bench,” installed in a sunroom’s corner, and the lipped top will get a nice upholstered thick pad with foam core.
Each of the three recessed panels on the long face side is a drawerfront, and 5/8 rock maple dovetailed boxes inside are riding on soft-close full-extension slides.
The front panel “faceframe” and side panel are all of 5/4 material. Everything showing is birch, clearcoated with a primer and two coats of conversion varnish.
Your bill, to build and install this?
I am looking for a sanity check because I know that the owner is thinking of this as something costing maybe a couple hundred dollars.
Replies
$120 matl, 20 hrs labor plus travel
PS: Assuming internal parts drawers other than the face can be nailed up plywood boxes and not dovetailed. The dovetailed part didn't register at first.
Add another $100 matl for the drawers and 5 hrs labor assuming a dovetail jig already set up in the shop.
Edited 11/10/2006 1:11 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 11/10/2006 1:15 pm ET by junkhound
Costing a "couple hundred" dollars.
Yep....had one of them a gew weeks back. Wanted a custom built entertainment/containment center built to accomodate TV/DVD/stereo...and accutrements.
My estimate for a paint grade unit was $1200.....they almost choked.
A quick guestimate for the project you're describing....anywhere from $850 on up.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
I'd be thinking you could multiply his price by ten, and I still wouldn't particularly want the job
John
There is no way around the job. It has to be done. The HO had us do a major remodel last spring and has referred us to others.
I could spend a day in the pickup, running around to get the hardwood, plywood, and miscellaneous. No sources are closer than an hour away.
Plan the cut list and sequencing the rest of the day. Start in the shop the next morning, plane and mill all stock, cut all blanks, machine drawerparts with dovetails and drawerslide cuts and holes, assemble drawerboxes, make the front panel and end panel, sand and seal all to-be-finished surfaces.
Next day, light sand parts, spray conversion varnish coat one, have some coffee, spray conversion varnish finish, take the rest of the day to wonder why I am doing this.
Next day, load it all up, take it over, and assemble in place.
Or, I can buy all the stuff pretty much made, and just put together the kit.
Either way, I think I am looking at a couple grand.
I'd look at getting the boxes from drawer box supplier, panels and fronts from a supplier and do the casework as required. Looks like an easy $1000 any way you slice it. Even if you are set up for the panels and drawers its still a large assembelly, why sweat the details? Sub as much out as cost allows and do whats needed to put the price where its "right" in your application. I'd look for a local guy who can do this stuff and see if anything comes out of it. Might suprise you.
Just caught this thread. This sounds a lot like something I run into sometimes, when a client or business owner feed you jobs, he feels entitled to put the squeeze on you for his personal benefit- meaning you provide free labor as a payback for his referrals. I'd rather donate time to Habitat for Humanity.
Nick C
Housewright Design-Build
I think you are right on. But include the pad in your price, with a basic fabric. If the HO wants some exotic stuff, it should be extra. Dove tailed maple drawers and 5/4 birch carcases? Shouldn't that be the other way around? How are the drawer fronts detailed? Raised Panel, flat, que?
I'm looking at 3 days of shop time for the labor including finish. Plus all material and installation of probably about a half day by time your all said and done.
When I do built-ins it usually comes out to about $500 a running foot. If it's really simple it's less, really complex it's more. I bet yours would cost me $300 to $400 a foot to design, build, finish, and install. $400 x 6.5' = $2600.
I've been buying my doors and drawers from Walzcraft, excellent quality for less than I can make them. Big drawers like those might be $80 each, fronts $35 each, slides $50 a pair. There's $500, plus $300 for birch and poplar. Paint or varnish, $50 material. Material total = $850. Three days labor = $1200. Total = $2050. Markup 20% = $2460.
Twin size captain's beds online sell for $500-1000 and up, plus shipping plus the buyer has to assemble it him/herself. Quality of materials and construction, of course, runs the gamut.
Rebeccah
3 days maybe 4...
materials, P&O...
TT&T.... 2,840$
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Did one like it for about $800 ten years ago when I was making maybe $24/hr. That wws unpainted.
I have another to do this winter. Part of an addition, no estimate on the bench yet. probably two grand
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Couple of hundred for materials, maybe...
Reminds me of the lady who asked about our hourly rate, "Oh, but that is for the whole crew, right?"
LOL
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Our contract with her for the addition and kitchen, finished this past June, had our rates agreed upon at $65 per hour, each "master carpenter," for extra work billed on a time basis.
I think I'll do a McDesign/MikeSmith routine for this thing, showing a step-by-step. Might be instructive for the newbies.
Gene
I had to add on to this window seat, original plan was only on one wall and when I got it all done they added the second/adjacent side!
Basically the same thing that you need, mine has feet but similar.
I figured this at three days, same as a lot of the estimates that you've gotten. That was from start to finish, including install. That time also included building the dovetailed drawers and drawer fronts. No time to order out!
Install went pretty quick, just moved the first one over and add a new deck to accommodate my added piece. probably two/three hours total.
Doug
Edited 11/10/2006 10:07 pm ET by DougU
nice stuff Doug..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You should see some of his good work!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Wow! That's pretty.
Tell me about the leg detail - are they applied to a stepped box?
Forrest
Forrest
Here is a better pic of the foot detail.
Don't blame me for the dentil detail on the base, HO's had a damn interior deco. and she insisted on that!
I tried to talk the HO's out of the toe kick underneath but they thought cleaning would be much better with it so.......
The foot is just applied on to the face of the cabinet. Had to to accommodate that darn dentil mouldings. This foot is a little taller then the feet on the rest of the cabinets in the kitchen and has an applied design. The feet on the rest of the kitchen fit on the under side of the face frame with an applied mouldings running around the perimeter of the cab.
Sorry for the side track Gene!
Doug
that is very nice Doug... how much was the bill on it?
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete
You'll find this story interesting!
I did this job for a couple that was from Shaker Hieghts, OH. now living in Austin, TX. Matter of fact the guys parents were there(from OH) for part of the time that I was working on the house and dad was a staunch republican, never passing the chance to express his views on politics and the state of Ohio in general. This was way back in Feb/March of this year.
I had them take a look at your web site one day and they found it interesting, the dad even made the comment that he "liked this guy" after reading for a while, said that there was some common sense stuff on there. He was born in Germany and then moved to Isreal and then to the US, started a tool and die shop and basiclly lived the American dream, cool guy.
Anyhow back to the subject at hand :)
Without digging through my paper work on the job, which right now I couldnt find if I needed to, I know that I told them T&M for all changes and I billed at $40 an hour, I remember clearly that I told them 3 days work, which was very close so that put the labor right at $1000, I really dont remember the material cost but it had to be in the nieghborhood of $3-500.
My price on this might of have been a little cheaper then if I just built this box as a stand alone job because I was already tooled up to do the whole job anyways.
Aside from the interesting/wonderful people that I worked for on this job the GC went south and the whole thing turned into a big legal battle that is now just coming to and end. I havent been able to post any pictures of the job because of it, plus the story of a GC that took a client list that most would die for and flushed it down the toliet in 3 short years.
I was holding back on telling about it until the whole thing cleared legally, which it now has.
Anyhow more info then you asked for but........
Doug
Thanks for the compliments... and the start of my national noteriety so that when I run for the Oval Office in 08..... just kidding.
That was a very reasonable price for your efforts. It is a fine product. You do nice work.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Edited 11/14/2006 7:45 am ET by PeteDraganic
"I think I'll do a McDesign/MikeSmith routine for this thing, showing a step-by-step. Might be instructive for the newbies."I think that would be a terrific idea to post. Hey, why not write it in to Taunton either FWW or FHB to help suppliment the $ you're going to lose if you give in to this customer?
Seriously, I think it would be really great for the new guys starting out to see how to step out an estimate, and also for the HO customers who haven't a clue on what custom built things take to produce.
That reminds me of the saying about a local eye doc.When ask the price of the glass he would give a price. If they did not flinch we would add, Per Eye. And if they still did not flinch he would add, Plus Frame.
Just looking at it, off the top of my head I guestimated $2400.
I did some b'fast nook benches a couple years ago, similar design. About 54" long, 21"deep, 18" high. Had a drawer on each end(one with a custom cookie sheet rack) and storage on the other half. I installed them primed, painter painted them. Charged $1,050 for each one, installed. If I priced them out today, it would be more along the lines of $1800-$2000 each. I've had to learn that customers sometimes don't know what custom quality is, and you can't go to the furniture store and get that same quality. The key is to educate while selling your product, but sometimes they just don't have the budget.
Sounds to me you need to think real hard on how much business he has given and gotten for you! Then decide how much you can do it for. For me, I had a customer who had me do their 150k remodel. They also gave my name out to friends and family. All together I made about 230k off of their ref. Just think real hard before you give them the estimate.
"Sounds to me you need to think real hard on how much business he has given and gotten for you! Then decide how much you can do it for. For me, I had a customer who had me do their 150k remodel. They also gave my name out to friends and family. All together I made about 230k off of their ref. Just think real hard before you give them the estimate."
FWIW, when I decide to offer a discount, I will often prepare both the estimate and the invoice showing the full retail price, minus a discount, to arrive at the net price. When I've done this, the customers better understand the deal they're getting, as well as the value I attribute to my relationship with them, and they are far more inclined to tell their friends to expect an undiscounted price when they talk about the work I've done.
Itemizing discounts also enables me to quantify gross sales and discounts as separate line items on my financial statements so I remain fully cognizant of the effect of discounts on my bottom line. I categorize discounts on my FS as a forecasting/budgeting tool, i.e., goodwill, promotion, quantity, pre-payment, competition, friends & family, screw-ups/delays... (customers don't always know about these).
I've found that discussing the basis for both the estimate and the discount with customers bolsters my credibility while changing customer expectations about Ikea prices for custom work. The clients who haven't responded favorably to "real world" estimates have been the ones most likely to try to bargain, withhold final payment, get extras for free, etc.
I'm diplomatic but unapologetic about my hourly rates and the fact that I operate a for-profit business, but I don't usually disclose any more details than I have to until I've had an opportunity to assess the client's mindset because PITA prospects seem to view disclosure as an invitation to haggle; when a prospective client has a negative reaction to forthright estimates/proposals, they're likely to be a PITA if I take the job; clients who initially respond favorably to frank discussion and "education" have generally been great to deal with and pay promptly.
YMMV,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 11/12/2006 1:43 pm by jazzdogg
Edited 11/13/2006 10:13 pm by jazzdogg
Jazzdogg,
I have steps that each customer goes through before I decide to do anything "extra". Yes I also run a for profit business.
But customer service, especially to clients that pay in full is usally over and above what is called for. That is part of my reputation. They know ahead of time if you want any extras don't ask untill I offer.
In my 12 yrs of business I have never had a customer stiff me, they know up front what's going on!
Oh by the way, I'm not some kind of dumb hick. I have my MBA in business.
Hi Nailerman,
I'm sorry if you infer that I hold an opinion of you that is anything but admirable. I reprised your earlier post because I agree with what you said; I was trying to affirm what you said by adding my own experience.
No offense intended,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
No offense taken, sorry if it soundes alittle say, abusive. I just get tired of the guys out there who could care less about the client, and worry more about squeezing a couple more bucks out of them.
2 months ago a long time client went to the compitition because of price not quality, now she is calling me to rectify it for little of nothing. I probly will because the jerk bad mouthed me, and tore up some of my previous work.
I don't do this all the time but the client is 72 yrs old, and I have the wiggle room this time.
So please forgive me for my impaitence sometimes.
nailerman
If you can't do it right, then learn how and do it better.
Jazzdog -
"......prepare both the estimate and the invoice showing the full retail price, minus a discount, to arrive at the net price.
Mind if I steal this strategy? It's a great way to give a customer a deal - and make it clear that was a special deal.
I'm doing something similar for a very good customer who works for a well known computer company. I've done quite a bit of work for her over the last two years and she's become as much of a friend as a customer. She recently put me in their company database for referrals and is really praising my work.
She really wants a desk but claims that she can't afford it right now so I told her that I was setting up a credit account for her and would fund it with a percentage of any work I get through her referrals.
Hi Dave,
The idea certainly isn't original to me; it's a tactic anyone can use. One of the things my business experience has taught me is that reviewing "net" numbers can save time during meetings, but it's almost always more productive to make business decisions (budgeting, forecasting, cash-flow analysis...) after a careful examination of the details; in this particular instance, some of the details can also be employed in customer relations.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I'm building a small drawer unit for a kitchen, 18"x24"x36". You can buy a ready made standard kitchen unit for around $300, I'll have $265 just in materials. I think your bench will cost over $300 in materials, not including the top. You are looking at drawers that will be close to 12" on the fronts. Using solid stock will likely mean a glue up. Even if you build screwed together pine board drawer boxes, pocket screws on the frame and MDF bottom and back, there is a fair amount of work in milling the lumber, assembly and finishing.
You made an excellent point and one many seem to overlook. It takes the better part of a day to meet with the customer, plan the piece, acquire the materials and do a layout. If you are not a full time cabinet shop, you will likely have to set up various machines to make the cuts and joinery. There are also the little things like glue, sandpaper, cleaning the spray gun, electricity, tool wear, making or setting up jigs, bookkeeping, etc. One of the issues is that it takes a certain amount of time to set up something like a dovetail jig and make a test cut. When that is spread over 100 drawers it isn't too bad but it takes the same time for just one drawer.
Custom cabinet work is labor intensive. I think you could do the job in three days as long as everything goes well. At $35/hr. you are still talking $1200. $1900 at $65/hr. Good luck selling the piece at either price.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Your probably right, specially if they have been watching too many HGTV/DIY shows.
In case like this, I will ask the client what they want. Dovetails or rabbits with screwed joints. If it the latter, then It's less than a day. if they want the high end, then, depending on the level jointery, I would say 2-3 days.
I am assuming you will be working on other projects for this customer. If this is the only part of your scope of work, then add 100% to the "lower quality" job and 50% to the "high end"
+/- $2,500 -- No Install. Do it every day. Would have some customers wince if this was the only piece on the job, though most customers would not even question it.
a half day to gather up materials
a half day to build the cabinet
a half day to to build the drawers and tinker with the slides
a full day of sanding, finishing, clean up
a half day packing, transport and installation
$300 material, 24 hours labor @ $55 per + incidentals (fuel, shop supplys)
$1,620 for a really good customer, $2,000 for anyone else
$300 material, 24 hours labor @ $55 per + incidentals (fuel, shop supplies)
Glad to see an estimate close to my DIY estimate (#2). Must mean being old and experienced, been there done that etc., can count for something.
I cannot imagine myself trying to do work for a customer though, have lotta mechanical skills, but about zero marketing.
I forgot the incidental part too, so will not go into the trade professionally <G>!.
I never understood this way of thinking...
Why cost yourself $380 just because they are a "really good" customer?
I'm not trying to pick on you, but you're leaving 25% of the money behind for a customer you KNOW Is going to buy from you and cost is no issue?
Neil
I dont get that either, not to diss what Mav does but I have two prices, regular and free.
Most pay regular price!
Doug
for me I would consider it a small job. small jobs lead to bigger jobs, I'll make my money there
another way to look at it is that small jobs interrupt big jobs and can cost in lost profits there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree whole-heartedly. Best case scenario for me in a situation like this is farming it out to a smaller scale operation I trust. I'm very small-scale myself, and I started a few odd years back w/ a beat-up truck and a handfull of tools. I now get calls from those first happy customers time and again. I can explain to them how we're growing and doing well and want to help, but are on to bigger things, and they understand. My customers more often than not become long term friends, and its the letdown of not being able to help that grinds on me most. So, I pitch the work out to my trusted buddies who work as one man bands and occasionally pick up a sub or two with me. I act as the go-between and continue to engender good feelings with old customers and old friends, my sub-in buddies get good jobs that they like (i don't take a piece) and I get the calls for the big ones later on. -dukeDCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC
"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
you can look at it that way if you like. I dont think $55 an hour for 3 days is losing too much money.
personally, I like t&m jobs.
I do too, and personally, this is the sort of job I would rather do myself. but reality being what it is, a guy can't run two bigger jobs and make time for something like thios without giving something up and/or losing money because of it. I was not argueing it either way, just pointing out that there IS another way of viewing it. Each of us has to decide such things based on the skills and tools and setup we have. My setup forces me to learn to think more like a business man and less like a craftsman in love with his work.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Mav
I dont have any argument with the way you or anybody else does their pricing, hell we all have our way of doing things but, if I had all the money that came as a result of "small jobs lead to big jobs" then I'd be sitting down at the beach sipping mi-ties watching the babes walk by.
I'm done falling for that line "I've got some other work for ya after you do this little job for me." Never seams to pan out that way.
Doug
"I've got some other work for ya after you do this little job for me." Never seams to pan out that way.
or too many others...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
or too many others...
And they want that special price on it too!
Doug
LOL, by the time I can afford to sit on some beach and watch babes walk by, I'll probably be too poor of sight to enjoy the sight or too aged in mind to remember why I'm looking.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ballpark, including materials....
1500 - 2000 maybe.
for perspective.... I am builing a scrabble board for a client right now... it'll be quite nice and there is a good deal of intricate work (many game pieces and lettering too)
My price is 750, with materials... which I think is cheap but it should be a fun project.
the board sits on a carcass with a drawer and rotates on a base... It also has an inlaid grid to hold all pieces on the board securely....... I'll attach a pic that gives the general idea.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Are you also supplying the cushion top? I built something similar for my mothers house to fit into a bay window (almost same size, but angled ends - plywood sides and back and cherry front). The cushion was done by a professional to match other furniture - the cushion alone was $380.
Jason
Anyhow, Gene... what was your price?
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I would charge at least $1600.
I just delivered this last week and charged $1400 for it. Just over 8' long, 20" high, and 16" deep. No drawers or shelves - just basic doors.
Even the $1400 was something of a "deal". I built it for a neighbor as a "filler" project and 90% of the material was left over from other jobs. A short walk down the street to get the measurements, and a short drive to deliver it.
nice
http://www.petedraganic.com/