Anyone watch nightline last night?
RW Grace had a mine in Libby, Montana where they mined vermiculite since the 1960’s. Everyone that worked at the mine has asbestosos. 20% of the people that live in that town have signs of asbestosos just from what’s been laying on the ground there.
They have been shipping the asbestos contaminated vermiculite out by the millions of tons all over the nation for decades now.
That fluffy stuff we’ve been crawing around in up in peoples attics is most likely zonolite, one of many products made from the asbestos contaminated vermiculite.
RW Grace, and our current U.S. government, have been trying to keep this information on the “down low”.
Don’t mean to panic anyone… I’ve pulled cable for 15 years in the stuff and I’m still here, not coughing yet, but this is interesting information that needs to be passed on.
Nightline is doing part 2 of their report on this subject tonight. Yaw might want set your tivo’s to record this one.
Replies
Ah, the Industrial Age
Grace funded a shyster who claimed he could recycle mine tailings in Idaho...thus relieving Grace of the disposal costs & the shyster would make his money on the .01 5 silver he got...
they sent a kid to clean a cyanide tank out w/no breathing apparatus, turned him into a vegetable...the lawsuit between the shyster & the EPA went on for years, & Grace never got involved...I wish I could remember the name of the book...an object lesson in some of the good work the EPA can do, and in the sorry nature of the adversarial, litigation based US legal system
Recently read in the NYT story about an entrepreneur who bought a small (100 employees) metal shop from the Tyco empire (does the name Dennis Koslowski ring a bell. Turns out Tyco had falsifying the trichloroetheylene figures for years, & the new owner is on the hook, never mind the contract language in her purchase agreement that flatly protects her...
Ain't Greed grand (sigh)
here on the north side of the Big Line the Canadian government has been in deep p%&p recently for using zonolite with asbestos contamination in military housing and reservation housing and then not 'fessing up about it when it became clear what all's in there.
apparently lots of people renovating are now calling abatement contractors to get rid of it before new work progresses, although i haven't been in that boat myself yet. tyvek suits and respirators for installing a new pot light might add a few cents to the bill.
Anyone watch nightline last night?
Yup. Pretty distressing to hear them report that years ago...EPA was all set to go after W.R. Grace for the Libby Montana mess...and that Prez G. W. Bush's Office of Management and Budget somehow put the halt on EPAs progressing the issue.
Got the VCR set to record the 2nd half tonite.
Will definitely pay attn to what the program sez but do all I can to get further information as I have too much experience with watching the media bias information it presents and or simply - get it wrong.
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Not all vermiculite has asbestos in it. Must be tested by scanning under high power microscopes. Its turning into a bonanza for some. I call it the new "Fear Factor": Scare the hell out of 'em and then pick their pockets. If you're not up in the attic disturbing it daily so the fiber becomes airborne and it's not falling down through your ceiling, is it hurting you. Health and Welfare Canada appear to have weakened their stand on this. But it's not to say that it's safe but if its dormant and not entering the air, maybe it's best to leave it where it is. By the way, there are up to 20 or so potential sources of asbestos fiber in any house from tile floors to drywall joint compound/plaster, ceiling tiles, popcorn /textured ceiling spray, heating pipe and duct insulation, etc.
To get asbestosis or cancer from it, you generally must be exposed to it in very high concentrations for many years as were the mine workers and townspeople in Libby. Some have been saying that only one fiber is all it takes to get the special cancer associated with it- mesothelioma. There are very low probabilities, if not infinitesimal, that ingesting one fiber will cause the cancer. It's not impossible; there is a chance of it happening but I would stop crossing the street or even going out doors first if I was afraid of dying. Avoid the sun. Don't ever breathe in any diesel exhaust.
By checking gov't studies about the #'s of asbestos fibers just floating around in the air of Montreal and Toronto from brake linings/other sources and using the 1 fiber = 1 cancer, everyone in these cities (and every other city in the world) are going to die from this cancer. Some people would be breathing up to 7-14,000,000 fibers per year; so maybe staying in the house is the place to be.
I'm no expert but this is my understanding as well, i.e. that asbestos related cancer is the result of years of repeated exposure. What I was told was that it showed up for installers and factory workers who made disc brakes, things like that.Which isn't to say it's not slimy for Grace to cover it up and pass on their responsibility to other parties.
Not all vermiculite has asbestos in it.
You're absolutely correct. I have no argument with anything in your post. I AM, however, watching the issue with the vermiculite from the ORE taken from Libby Montana as it has been tested and found to contain asbestos...DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
You must be a republican.
I don't think breathing in 1 fiber is going to hurt anyone, but for those of us who are routinely crawling around up in attics, stirring up clouds of the stuff, this is something to get on top of.
Sure all the vermiculite didn't come from Libby, but do you know where the insulation in your house came from?.. neither does anybody else.
Just saying, when I go up into an attic with that grey mess in it from now on, at a minimum I'll be using an asbestos rated respirator.
Also, worth repeating, if anyone is thinking of using a shop vac or paper dust mask... bad idea. You need a very expensive vacuum with a special hepa filter. Paper mask vrs. asbestos... that's the old analogy of BB's thru a chain link fence.
No!!!!! Never!!!!! I'm actually from Canada where we actually have what is considered a fairly socialist political party (the New Democratic Party or NDP) that I vote for fairly regularly. This party is quite left of your Democrats!!!
I actually work part time in the Healthy Housing field as part of my home inspection/consulting practice and am recommended by the only environmental clinic in eastern Canada ( by the way, it's modelled on the first in the field in Dallas)
Any one who climbs in an attic without a mask may be putting their health in jeopardy even without asbestos in the attic. What about bat and rodent droppings that may carry histoplasmosis and hantavirus?
experienced - I have a prospective client whose house is sided with thin brittle asbestos fibre panels. Some of these panels are inside his garage (unpainted and damaged), a few line the inside of cupboards in the kitchen...
You get the picture.
Told the guy I wasn't interested in his kitchen reno unless he first had a pro asbestos abatement firm swab his place so that I could see the report. If there's fibres in the house, the firm would have to remove them, or I'm out of there.
What you say?http://www.costofwar.com/
Aahh!! Asbestos cement shingles. I used to run a retrofit insulation company for 10 years and had to remove/replace thousands of them when gaining access to the wall cavities.
These usually don't become crumbly and friable as does duct/pipe insulation when damaged. As such they are not considered too dangerous when being removed as they don't disintegrate when touched. But check with the local authorities. In the past, I have talked to health authorities in 2 provinces about removal and they said "Be careful" and that they had to be disposed by double bagging with heavy duty bags. The stuff that is loose and friable and removed by workers in space suits must be disposed of in sealed metal drums.
I may get run over by saying this but here goes. I feel that small quanities can be disoposed of safely by a homeowner taking the proper precautions. One gov't web site goes like this:
"It is a complex and expensive matter to remove asbestos, and should be done by an experienced contractor." My comment: Residential asbestos removal by pros starts at about $400 per hour!!!
In the next paragraphs, they essentially tell you what you have to do:
"It is essential to take adequate precautions. Everybody who works with asbestos should always wear an approved face mask and gloves, along with protective clothing. Be sure to tape sleeve and trouser cuffs, and wash clothes separately after use. Keep the work area moist to keep dust and fibre particles from floating into the air. Isolate the work space.
Reduce the air pressure to prevent asbestos fibres from escaping from the work area, and filter the exhaust air. Dispose of all waste appropriately, according to the guidelines of your provincial department of the environment. Other removal methods may be warranted for special conditions — consult an expert."
Know what you're dealing with!!!!
"Asbestos has been used in hundreds of applications and products over the past 4,500 years. The ancient Greeks wove it into oil lamp wicks, funeral shrouds and ceremonial tablecloths. During the 1800s, it insulated the hot engines, boilers and piping that powered the Industrial Revolution.
For half a century, until the 1980s, asbestos was used in office buildings, public buildings and schools. It insulated hot water heating systems, and was put into walls and ceilings as insulation against fire and sound.
Asbestos has also been widely used in transportation and electrical appliances, frequently mixed with, and encased in, other materials.
Asbestos has also been found in many products around the house. It has been used in clapboard; shingles and felt for roofing; exterior siding; pipe and boiler covering; compounds and cement, such as caulk, putty, roof patching, furnace cement and driveway coating; wallboard; textured and latex paints; acoustical ceiling tiles and plaster; vinyl floor tiles; appliance wiring; hair dryers; irons and ironing board pads; flame-resistant aprons and electric blankets; and clay pottery. Loose-fill vermiculite insulation may contain traces of “amphibole” asbestos."
Sometimes people are overreacting to new messages about safety!!I Had a case in house about 14 years ago with my wife. She had heard on the radio about the dangers of the levelor type custom fit blinds having lead in them. Our children at the time were 3 & 8, so she immediately went to their bedrooms, stripped out the blinds and put them in the garbage to be picked up that day!! When I got home and explained that to be dangerous to kids they would have to be putting them in their mouths for a long time. The alarm was put out as some infants in cribs could grab the blinds and suck on them if the crib was next to the windows. That was not the situation in our house but the blinds were gone!!!
The sky always seems to be falling these days and we're all going to be hypochondriacs soon or turn our children into them!!
That leaves it up to me then. I'll take a pass on that job.
Thanks for the technical info.http://www.costofwar.com/
If you're working on you own house, and you are the only person involved, I suppose it is up to your own discretion as to what kind of materials you are comfortable in dealing with. But in my opinion, a cavalier attitude towards environmental safety has no place in a professional setting, especially if you are responsible for employees. Young or inexperienced workers may not understand all the risks involved, and may not feel confident enough to opt out of a potentially hazardous job. A homeowner may benefit from your cowboy attitude, and in some cases maybe you, as a contractor might, but an employee has nothing to gain by dealing with hazardous materials. Besides being unethical, you could very easily end up with a lawsuit on your hands. It just isn't worth it.
Well, Doc, It's a vexing problem!!!
When asbestos is in stuff such as plaster, textured/popcorn ceilings, tile fooring, etc. etc, etc., you soon won't soon be able to demolish a house without building a 3-4 storey plastic cocoon around it to stop the release of fibers/lead/mold spores into the local environment. In older houses, the $400+ per hour people will be involved in every renovation. If you're afraid of asbestos, wear a properly fitted mask in any of our larger towns and all cities!
Safety yes but paranoia no!!!
I run an extended home inspection/consulting/ litigation assistance business (expert witness). Last summer I had someone call me about a quote from a large engineering firm to clean up the mold in their parents house. Both elderly parents had been in the hospital for the larger part of a more humid than average summer here. So with no one home to manage the situation, a bit of mold developed in one corner of the finished basement. The garage had the original wood door from the mid 70's and it had been rotting slowly at one sectionj oint for 2-4 years.
I was called to have a look at the situation by their sons. The mould on the garage door was a white filamentous type similar to what you see decaying fallen softwoods in the forest. I have slides of some cut up firewood with this stuff. The engineering co. recommendation: "Stay out of the garage, it's hazardous to your health!" By extension "Stay out of the woods, it's hazardous to your health." We looked at the little bit of mold in the basement corner- way less than 10 sq ft of mold. We crawled into a dry partial crawlspace with lights and found no mold.
I gave them a couple of info sheets from Canada's national housing agency- Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp- saying that this amount of mold could/should be cleaned up by the homeowner. The eng. co. estimate for clean-up: $8-10,000. My cost of consulting: less than $100- I had just finished a regular home inspection about 2 blocks away.
My view of the larger situation:
There's a new "FEAR FACTOR" being played by some of the professionals: "Scare the S&^t out of them, then pick their pockets!!!"
On my website I have described another episode of FEAR FACTOR dealing with mold on the inside of roof sheathing from winter condensation. See the bottom of this page: http://www.ahi-ns.ca/Healthy.htm
Heard of this four or five years ago. WR Grace's Zonolite was a popular product in Western Canada.
Health Canada calculates maximum occupational exposure levels on the basis of 40 hours' exposure per week, 52 weeks a year. They determine - using lab animals and statistical analysis - the exposure level at which the occurence rate of a disease among workers rises above the background rate for the general population. That level - or just below it - becomes the max under OSHA regs.
Of course, as others have stated, asbestos fibres are everywhere, which skews the results in ways that are favourable to the asbestos industry.
Good luck.
http://www.costofwar.com/
And look what happened to all of them - they're all dead!!!
"Asbestos has been used in hundreds of applications and products over the past 4,500 years. The ancient Greeks wove it into oil lamp wicks, funeral shrouds and ceremonial tablecloths. During the 1800s, it insulated the hot engines, boilers and piping that powered the Industrial Revolution."
I enjoyed reading this thread. It's a good and intelligent discussion of the risks.
Far better than what I read anywhere when I was trying to determine the risk of pulling down those stapled ceiling tiles. Anyway, my understanding of asbestos is that if you don't bother it, it won't bother you.