Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 19, 1999 08:29am | #1

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   Chuck, the utility of any fire extinguisher is based upon the combustable, proximity of the extinguisher, capability of the personnel, timely detection and extinguishment.
   A 2 1/2 pound type ABC rated 1A5BC is, about, worthless. It will extinguish 1 square foot of combustable material, type A (wood, paper, etc...)
   or in Construction Terms: Squat Diddley.

   Three items are worthwhile on a construction site:
   A 10 pound Type ABC dry-chemical extinguisher.
   a 2 1/2 Gallon Pressurized Water extinguisher, which can be winterized at a competent service center, and either a land-line or cellular telephone to call in the troops.
   I've seen 5 floors burn in an apartment building by a fire that the contractor "put out" before packing up and leaving for the day. Extinguishers must be readily at hand, where needed. Paint strippers, torches, cut off saws, finishing products, calylizing adhesives, sanding operations, etc... all deserve attention. The crew should have familiarity with the actual use of the extinguishers prior to a jobsite incident.

2. 
   Chuck_Bickford | Feb 19, 1999 06:18pm | #2

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   Thanks, George. It sounds like you have experience with fire; are you a firefighter? What do you do to prepare your crew? Where do you see the greatest potential hazards?

3. 
   Guest_ | Feb 20, 1999 12:00am | #3

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   I can't speak for George, but it seems to me that a temporary water supply is very important. A hose bib, maybe near the temporary electrical system, away from the building so that it doesn't interfere with other plumbing work.

   Water (and a long-enough hose) is needed for plaster and concrete work, and testing the waste system anyway, and will work much better for a wood fire than a fire extinguisher.

   The usual fire estinguisher is more handy for vehicle fires that may include oil or gasoline. Also for electrical fires, although these are rare.

   I've heard of plumbers asking an owner when sweating copper on water lines with a torch in an old house, "Now, is this the one you want me to burn down...?"

   I assume when George mentions problems with finishing products, he includes the rags that can spontaneously combust. This should be mentioned in the article.

   Smoking should be mentioned also. Its not realistic to assume it won't happen if its prohibited.

   Welding is another common cause of fires, although its use in residential construction is rare.

   It should also be mentioned that refinishing cabinets with oil-based varnishes can be potentially explosive. People turning-off a switch often set off an explosion or fire. People should know that turning on a switch doesn't necessarily cause a spark, but turning one off one does. Its especially tragic when they were trying to turn off the switch to PREVENT a fire from paint fumes or a natural gas leak.

   Also, many carpenters are notorously casual about electrical. I'm not sure if its because of a macho attitude, or lack of understanding, but they are often likely to be "creative" with temporary electrical set-ups which can cause shock or fire.

   Obiously I've ether got too much time on my hands, avoiding other work, or starved for conversation.... Bye

4. 
   Chuck_Bickford | Feb 20, 1999 09:03am | #4

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   Thanks for the input Gary. The hose idea is a good one; it's low-tech and simple. In all my conversations with fire marshals, the subject of a hose was never discussed. Ditto the explosive fumes scenario.

1. 
   CAP_ | Feb 20, 1999 09:38am | #5

   *Watch the dumpster. I've seen a fire start in a dumpster at a commercial site, and it really got going quick.No one at the site wanted to call the F.D., so things got quite impressive with lots of smoke, then flames shooting out the top of the bin. The attitude on-site was "get another garden hose..." Finally, someone in a neigboring office building called 9-1-1.I've heard that it's not uncommon to have a small fire get out of control because everyone feels 'hey, it's just a little one, who needs the firemen...'

5. 
   Guest_ | Feb 20, 1999 03:25pm | #6

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   When I'm sweating copper pipe joints in an old structure (old dry wood, lots of cobwebs, rough-sawn framing), I mist the area with water from a spray bottle (e.g. old Windex bottle). Doesn't slow down the soldering, but it eliminates those cobwebs flaring up and those splinters that smolder away.

   I'll second the garden hose, especially a full 3/4-inch one. Carries 12-15 gpm while a 5/8 carries 8-10 gpm. In leiu of the hose, a sailor friend pointed out (while comparing different pumps and bailers), "Nothing moves water faster than a motivated sailor with a 5-gallon bucket."-David

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 21, 1999 06:56am | #7

   *OK, a garden hose. Real world, is it where it's needed? Charged? With a nozzle? And are you confident it's going to put the fire out. CAP has hit the problem on the head, "...no one wanted to call the Fire Department..."Who wants the bother? Who wants the responsibility for opening a wall, and checking for extension of the fire, or better... complete extinguishment. What will the home owner/general contractor say about the damage?Now look at the potential for leaving well enough alone, and burning down or substantially damaging the structure. Not to mention, are you or your crew experience in firefighting? If this "minor" fire takes off, who's going to get burned? As contractors, we are not trained or equipped for coping with a rapidly evolving fire situation. I'm sticking with Big Extinguishers, and a cell phone thanks.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 22, 1999 03:07am | #8

   *Thanks all. Okay, granted that extinguishers are handy - they're portable and you can use them to slow down electrical or chemical fires (which hoses won't do), but where's the best place to keep them? Do you have a central location? I've seen them strapped to the back of a truck box, but what about inside the house?

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 22, 1999 05:51am | #9

   *On a similar note, I hope, does anyone ever put some kind of fire detection system -- just a loud alarm, say -- on an unoccupied site? I've heard several stories of construction-in-progress sites that went up at night or on the weekend, from an unnoticed smoldering problem, arson, or, a few blocks from here, a mistake made by an electrician. The fire folks say a few minutes can make a big difference... Though I guess an unsheathed house is like a pile of kindling.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 22, 1999 08:27am | #10

   *I'm not sure you can appreciate a fire extinguisher until someone runs into a build to say "whose ever white truck that is out there, I think it's on fire." It was mine, and a trigger activated torch had been jostled on a bump into the paking lot. Needless to say a torch can easily start a fire. My truck is a large cube van and the limited oxygen supply helped keep things under control, but the heat build up buckled the roof of the truck. I cautiously open the back and it took two fire extinguishers, but I had it out as the fire dept. rolled up. Fortunately this type thing doesn't draw much interest, so the entire office "WASN'T" out there to spare me humiliation.Fire Extinguishers been very, very good to me.

6. 
   simon | Feb 25, 1999 08:59am | #11

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   1. Just a clarification on fire extinguishers in a previous post; a 1A5BC will extinguish 1 cubic foot of class A (normal combustibles, eg. wood, paper etc.) fire; 5 square feet of class B (flammable liquid, eg. gasoline, paint etc) fire, and; the C indicates the contents of the extinguisher are non-conductive and as such are safe to use on electrical fires. Note, they are only "safe to use on electrical fires" and will not extinguish them. The only way to extinguish an electrical fire is to disconnect the power, and then you are left with either an A or B class fire, depending what was adjacent to the source of ignition.

   The rating system is based on it being used by an unexperienced person; in actuality, a trained person can usually (depending on circumstances) extinguish a larger fire than the extinguisher is rated for. GET SOME TRAINING! You local Fire Dept. will most likely be pleased to offer training.

   2. F.E.'s are an excellent idea on the job site and at least some codes mandate them, although they seldom seem to be required by inspectors. I would go with at least a 10
   pounder.

   3. Large loss fires are often related to delayed response by the fire dept., often caused by the phone call not being made in a timely fashion. Fire extinguishers are not a substitute for the fire department; call them first, then try to extinguish or control the fire with the extinguisher. Remember to always have an escape route; don't put yourself in a position where the fire is between you and your exit.

   4. Some general rules for deciding NOT to use a fire extinguisher (especially indoors)are: if the fire is bigger than you ; if the fire is developing a lot of smoke or; if the fire is growing rapidly. One last rule: IF IN DOUBT, GET OUT!

   Cheers

   ps. How many of you wood warriors have extinguishers in your shops?

7. 
   Guest_ | Feb 25, 1999 10:08am | #12

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   Sounds like good advice. Crews should be trained to phone first.

8. 
   simon | Feb 25, 1999 10:58am | #13

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   Not much (in the way of lumber) burns better except a nicely stickered pile of boards!

9. 
   Guest_ | Feb 25, 1999 06:55pm | #14

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   Experience talking?

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 03, 1999 05:56am | #15

   *Only from a Fire Dept. point of view (thank God)

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 04, 1999 08:34am | #16

   *I wonder just how serious a problem fire on a residential construction site is? The only fires I've ever heard of were,rarely, plumbers getting careless with the torches or in idling vehicles. Or, vandals making after hours visits which I don't think can be prevented short of an on-site guard.Now commercial sites; that is another problem. About the most serious there was a welder who blew up a Titan missile site in Arkansas many years ago. Since many sites don't have utility service yet I think it would be really tough to do more than provide fire extinguishers for crew escape and a cell phone to call the fire dept. The big projects that would call for dedicated fire guards etc are probably way beyond the scope of this magazine or board.In the shop: One by every waste container, by the doors and by the furnace. One in each vehicle handy and not locked. Smoke and fire detectors. And a carbon monoxide detector(keeps the fingers attached if you start getting sleepy).

10. 
    DAVE_SPECHT | Mar 06, 1999 07:17am | #17

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    i would think from my own experiance there must be alot of fires at residential job sites.I have witnessed a few fires and acouple of smoldering saw dust piles.One big problem cigarette buts thrown out carelessly .FAULTY ELECTRICAL CORDS LEFT PLUGGED IN.Recently a fire started at a local house under construction for over 3yrs,fortunetly the fire alarms were operating and there was only minor smoke damage.Firefighters said a bad cord left plugged in started the fire. Another was caused by a welder by accident , another by vandels.YES there are fire extinguishers hanging all over the place on the reno. i am currently on. GOOD LUCK

11. 
    Guest_ | Mar 07, 1999 12:23am | #18

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    You can add (to Dave Specht's list) such things as; floor finishers causing fires because they forgot to extinguish sources of ignition, roofers applying torch on membranes, painters who carelessly dispose of rags (resulting in spontaneous combustion), and anyone on the jobsite filling hot internal combustion engines with a new supply of fuel.

    If there is only one fire on the job, there are too many. Fortunately, as in most work place fires, they happen when people are relatively alert. As a result, there are fewer injuries and therefore less publicity, but; they do happen with too high a frequency. Just ask your insurance agent.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 07, 1999 08:34am | #19

   *Guess I've some pretty lucky experience. With the exception of the items in my prior post I've never seen a fire in new residential construction. Remodels and industrial are another matter. So, for any article I would like to see something in the intro that makes me think there is a problem that needs to be addressed; and can be addressed by the hands on the job.Not much can be done about vandals, personal vehicle fires, etc.Now shop fires, falls , electric shock, amputations, ingestion of toxic vapors and dust, hearing damage due to noise, bodily injury due to flying objects/fragments from sanding/grinding: There are some frequent hazards that we could sure use some tips on.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 10, 2000 11:42pm | #22

   *Just as soon as I'd posted the message I realized I'd forgotten to ask if what I've been taught in firefighting classes and practiced is still true. That is: Fire extinguishers are not primarily to put out fires. They are primarily to allow people to escape a fire situation. If the fire is put out all well and good. But that should never get in the way of using the extinguishers to allow people to leave. Too often a person will attempt to put out the fire only to be surrounded with the fire and have an empty extinguisher.An exception is if there are mulitiple people at the site then one person with an extinuisher can fight the fire while being guarded by the others then use their extinguishers for all to escape.Is this still considered valid tactical philosophy?

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 09, 1999 04:57am | #21

   *This is still valid to the extent that fire extinguishers CAN be used that way, but when you consider the ideal location for a fire extinguisher is adjacent to an exit (see NFPA 10), it does not apply. With the extinguisher located near the exit, the occupant has the choice of returning to attempt extinguishment, or to flee. Again, they are not a substitute for calling the Fire Dept., which should be done in conjunction with the extinguishment attempt. If the F.D. is called before (or simultaneous to) your attempt to extinguish the fire, at least there is someone on the way to haul your carcass out if your attempt fails with the worst possible consequences.In single family house there is only likely to be one extinguisher - if that - and the best location is by a door. In commercial shops, the requirement for number of extinguishers varies with the square footage of the shop, the travel distance to an extinguisher, and the hazards in the shop. Mounted adjacent to an exit is still an excellent choice of locations with other extinguishers mounted throughout the shop as required

12. 
    Chuck_Bickford | Mar 09, 1999 04:57am | #20

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    As backround for the upcoming FHB fire-safety article, I was wondering how many of you keep fire extinguishers on the job, and if so, how you store them. (Do you keep them on the truck? With the lock-box? etc.)Thanks in advance.