I was just wondering what method the majority of framers prefer. Either California framing as I call it (nailing through the plates, then applying the top plates after the walls are standing), or production framing as I call it (laying all three plates out on the floor and toenailing all of the studs). Personally I prefer production framing, as it seems much faster, with no going back to nail top plates, and/or lay out the ceiling.
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Replies
I don/t really understand your question...basically every framer 've ever seen around here ( the n.w.)iframes walls the same with very suttle differences due mostly to personal preferences. We plate the walls, do the lay out, nail the studs through the plates, top plate, sheet it if it 's sheer, add any hardware such as staps, stand up, plumb the corners as you go, string and line...where toe nailing comes in I don't get it
Here is how the toenailing comes in...
Once all the lines are snapped on the deck you go through and nail your bottom plates to the floor. Next you come through and tack a second plate to the bottom plate with toenails. Once you have all the second plates tacked you go through and nail all your top plates to the second plate, leaving all the joints and corners loose so that you can pull it apart when the time comes. After all three plates are on the floor it will look like you are looking at the walls standing from up above. Then you simply lay out the plates, marking them on the sides and across the top plate. Then you just pull the top two plates off the bottom plate, toenail your studs to the top plate, stand the wall, and then toenail the studs to the bottom plate. It goes a little easier to stand, plumb, and brace the corners first. Then as you go around the house everything should just fit together like a big puzzle, and you simply nail the joints and corners in the top plates that you left loose on the floor. Once the walls are up then go through with string lines and braces. But remember I said to lay out the top of the plate on the floor. Now you already have a layout for your ceiling joists, barring doubles or anything like that.
I know it sounds strange to people that have never done it this way, but it works great, and it is very fast.
I've puzzled over this description and still not sure that I understand you. It sounds like you are describing platform framing as opposed to balloon framing but that you use toenails to attach the plates instead of through nailing and that you wait until the wall is standing to nail the studs to the bottom plate with those toenails. It also seems like you are nailing the studs to the top plate while it is all on the deck like with through nailing but that you use toenails.
Why?
The only thing I see that is different is that the nailing is a whole lot harder and more time consuming. Never heard of doing it that way before and I've worked all over the country but never in California..
Excellence is its own reward!
You have to toenail because the two top plates are already nailed together and the bottom plate is already nailed to the deck, so it would be impossible to nail through the plates. No sheathing the walls before they go up either.
I figured this was pretty common practice because all of the well known framers where I came from frame this way. Actually the reason I asked is because I just relocated, and the company I satarted working for gives me just about these same responses when I tell them how we framed back home. It's kind of funny to see the looks on their faces. The guys I work for now nail through the plates. Then someone has to go back and attach top plates, while two other guys sheath the walls once they are up. Then after that, someone has to mark all the plates again for joists. I really hate it to be honest. Mainly because it is so slow and takes so much extra work.
Shtick,
I don't no where your from but in New Jersey that's how everyone frames, the way you do.
I lay everthing out on the top plates for the plumbing/ floor/ceilings/rafters. We snap lines from front to back and from side to side for all the 16 centers so everything is nice and straight. Those lines mark all the intereior walls.
Around here we frame everything and call in sheathers that can sheath a 4000 sf house in one day.
I framed the other way your talking about in Cape Cod. I like it that way also especially if your sheathing yourself. I will build gable ends and sheath them on the floor first and nail the rakes on then raise them and use them as scafolding. It makes it alot eassier setting the ridges.
When I first moved to Cape Cod I snapped all my lines nailed the shoe in tacked in my second plate and nailed in my third plate, layed everything out and the formen came over and thought I was nuts.
Joe Carola
I'm not sure I still understand this way of framing. Here near Seattle everyone (and a lot of the framers come from California) lay out their plates and then nail their walls together through the plates into the studs, then nail the top plate on, square the wall and sheathe it.
I've seen where guys nail their bottom plate to the studs, but already nailed their top plates together and then toenail the studs to the plates, but I don't see how thats faster.
I don't think here the code will allow us to toenail everything like that. I think the code says 3 16d sinkers through the plate into the stud on 2x6 walls and 2 16ds through the plates on 2x4 walls.
There was an article in JLC I think (it might be reprinted in the "Residential Structure and Framing book http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3e7c9f4f0038e79a271a401e1d29064a/Export/products/SF499) where they talked about the wall having to be sheathed if you toenail the tops and bottoms of the studs to the plate. There isn't enough uplift strength in the toenail, the sheathing would then be what prevents the uplift. I'm not sure and I'll have to find that article or the book to double check myself.
Interesting method though.
Sorry but that has to be the most inefficient way of framing a house that I've ever heard of.
Why on earth would you not want to sheath your wall while it is laying on the ground just begging for someone to lay plywood on it.
If you toenail you have to use more nails than if you nailed straight thru the plates.
Maybe I just don't get it, but can I ask how long it takes you to frame a house this way?
If it is quicker in total then maybe I've been doing it all wrong , but I just don't see it.
on an average size house (2500-3500 sq ft) it takes about a day a per story to stand, plumb, and brace all the walls. then about a half day per story to sheath. figure in a couple more days for bigger homes. the last one I framed back home was about 12,000 sq ft and the walls for each story were done in about 2 1/2 days each.
Those sound like good hours.
It takes me and my two guys a day and a half to frame , sheet, paper , and brace the 1st level of the 2998 sf model of our best seller.
The second floor takes one day with the same crew. These are after we had done several of this model and we are moving the whole day.
What size crew do you run?
To Shtick and Benny,
Shtick's estimate for the time for wall framing is about the same as my crew's: one full day with four guys. Keep in mind that is a no-BS pace. As far as our framing method goes, we cut and detail the bottom and top plate, nail the wall together. Then as soon as the top plate is nailed, we lay the double plate across the wall and cut and detail it. Then we nail it on and lift the wall. The only times we leave dbl plates off are when it would interfwere with lifting the wall, if it has an angle on one end (like on a bay window), or if it has tall windows (like on a gable end).
most of the time there were 6 of us, going at a good pace
We frame and sheath on the deck, end nailing(I thought this connection was under compression, not tension,and sheathing keeps the package together) top plates on exterior walls are added after it is sheathed on the floor, with slots left out to tie intersecting walls through. Interior walls are doubled after the entire walls are up ,to cross tie everything.
We frame everything, we have no sheathing crews, tyvek crews, cornice crews, blah, blah, blah......when we're done framing, we set all the exterior windows and doors and paper the roof, and apply drip edge. If it's for one of our own homes we shingle and side, if it's a subbed out job we leave for them.
I make up all my headers, with jacks and kings attached while the crew is finishing up the subfloor sheathing. That way, when I layout, I mark what number headers goes in, and all they have to do is drop that header in, and the rest are precuts.
We use a router to cut window and door sheathing out...fast and easy, and very clean look.
Keith,
We do things the same way you do. We do all framing, sheathing, siding, hang and flash the windows, and stick frame all of our roofs. We have a three man crew to build the same size houses (1800sq-4000sq), but one guy is always sick and we see him about once a week (long story). It takes us a hair over 1 day to frame and sheath the outside walls and that's 2 guys. I go home tired after a day like that. Here's a link to the house we just finished http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=26823.3
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=28492.1
Tomorrow we have 2 more guys joining our crew. I am very much looking forward to that. Often times I layout, detail and frame all the interior walls myself. My goal is always to do it in less than 8 hours and have it be the cleanest framing job. Plumb and line the next day when I'm fresh and inclined to make everything plumb and straight.
What do you guys use to plumb your walls. We bought the Stabila Plate level (6' to 10' model) about a year ago and that is one of the first tools I would buy if everything we had was stolen. You can do a perfect job plumbing walls. It's well worth the money.
I bought a "Plumb-it" 5'-13' expandable level in 1994. It truly is a great thing! I think it's in the same ballpark as the one you have. Between that and a string line, and we go after it.
I just looked at your ouse in progress and was very impressed. I've done very few all stick roofs as most everything I do has mostly trusses with perhaps a hip living rm. voulted with 2x12's and while i'm sure Bos would quickly point out the effecientcy and cost saving aspects of said trusses, there is still nothing cooler than cutting in a roof! I frame in KING CO. and would love to see that house, starting a 5500 sf in kirkland next week, out in Snoqualmie doing a "cottage" at the moment, been kind of windy and rainy of late, eh ? Any way, nice pics
Thanks for the compliments. The weather has been horrible that last 2 weeks. Fortunately we were inside 2 weeks ago when I did that cove ceiling, but not last week. We just started a custom in Allyn, near Belfair, that is quite ugly, but it's the customer's plan. Here's a link to the elevation and roof plan for that one. http://www.josephfusco.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=11&sid=6a751f267e143cfc8250f97df37d7bf1
That house in the picks was in McCormick Woods in Port Orchard. Not sure if you play golf (I don't), but a great course.
Hope you guys stay dry this week. Looks like tomorrow will be nice at least.
Tim,
How are the roof lines?
Anything interesting?
Joe Carola
Joe,
Go to Joe Fusco's new forum. I posted my plans for that roof. Hopefully they'll work. The roof plan and the elevation plans are there. Nothing hard about that roof. It's a 5-12
It's hard to complain about the weather as it seemed so mild early on, but I was so spoiled with the mostly dry days I didn't even miss the snow, thus snow boarding...that said, it was a bit of a shock when seattle started living up to its name with the new year. Any way, how do i find your elevations at fusco"s? Do I need to log on? Your coved ceiling looked very nice, read the replies and i also build everything I can on the ground as you did, don't personally like building overhead. I'll have to go down town and see if I can still get some photos of a cool apartments we did on queen anne...the corner exterior wall was set at a 45 to the others and they stood plumb for about 6 feet where they leaned in at a 24/12 or something for the next 8 feet. we built these "studs" from 2x6 bases to 2x12's sitting atop those that were at the 24/12. we built allthese in a yard south of town where we built all the walls for the building, but shipped all the leaning studs to be sticked in place, but I built that 45 wall in the yard on a temp floor. I snaped lines and cut all the "hips" and tested them (that being just the upper 2x12 parts)Any ways, I've probably lost you by now(a picture really is worth a thousand words)but the fun part was building the 45, about 12' wide with an arched window over sliding doors to a deck and where the wallsleaned in, the door/window continued up plumb to a live arch. This arch then tied back to the leaning part in a funky elliptical of sorts. Plus the curved fascia surrounding the arch met with the facia line where the leaning part caontinued past the plumbwalls to form a soffit all the way along these walls...damn, this doesn't even make sense to me. Anyway, iwas quite stoked when we brought it to the job two months later, as it was on the forth floor, and it fit...as i said I best be lookin' for some pictures...lol...scott
I'll just post the elevations here. That'll make it easy. Remember, this is one ugly house. I'm wearing the glasses, nose and mustache mask over my face so no one will recognize me.
Any of you guys do work in the Ocean Shores area? Let me Know, I'd like to pick your brains. I have a home going up within the next 2-6 months. Need some referals of locals or subs willing to commute. Email me directly at [email protected]
Just curious, how do the sheathing subs reach the high stuff ? Pumpjacks? Ladders? Maybe a pettybone?
Stossel1,
The sheathers reach the high stuff with ladders.
Joe Carola
Wow, so they drag a sheet up a ladder , then hold it in place with one hand and nail it off with the other. those guys must be animals! Do they get paid by the sheet?
Stossel,
You said, "Wow, so they drag a sheet up a ladder , then hold it in place with one hand and nail it off with the other. those guys must be animals! Do they get paid by the sheet?"
Yes, they carry the sheet with one hand up the ladder.
They tack a 10 penny nail on top of the row below at each end of the sheat(required spacing between sheats) and lay the plywood on the two nails and hold in place with one hand and nail off with a gun in the other hand.
Yes, they are animals, they do it every day, I guess just like a guy who sheetrocks once in a while going against guys who sheetrock everyday.
Yes, they do get paid by the sheet.
They can do two too three houses a day.
Joe Carola
I'm sorry, but I don't work in the Ocean Shores area. I don't know anyone that direction either. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
"I'm sure Boss would quickly point out the effecientcy and cost saving aspects of said trusses"
From the tone of your post, I think you're kidding. But just in case you aren't -
I've jokingly said trusses were "the answer to all problems" a time or 2. But I'm mostly poking fun. I think there are times where trusses are far better and other times where stick framing is the answer.
Of course - Trusses are the answer MOST of the time................(-:You get a canoe later and I'll paddle you.
Piff...
That was the basic method my father use in the 50's and 60's. His argument was no end grain nailing. End grain nailing made for a weak joint.
Toe nail [4 - 8ds or 3 10 cc's] studs to top and bottom plates. Install 1st base plate. Stand. Anchor. Add 2nd top plate. Sheath.
Sub flooring was 1 by set diagonal to the joist. 30#felt for VP. Long corner to long corner set the angle of the decking. The 1 by's were 6's and / or 8's.
The double plating top and bottom was automatic blocking for base and crown. Non LB walls were built the same way.
Usally it was just him and I.
Pro Deck - I still have That same framing hammer. It's an Eswing. I think. [Spring '56] 16 oz straight w/ left deflection. Also have my Miller Falls 22 oz.
Edited 3/22/2003 2:49:07 PM ET by IMERC
It seems like there is a mix of methods and at least two different things being considered here.
One is the layout method. On new work, I am just as likely to do all my layout of the three plates on the floor like shtick to avoid errors and extra work but I still end nail to put together.
Since most of my work is remodel, I sometimes stick nail too, toenailing one stud at a time when I need to. Lot's of times, I use a double bottom plate also on remodel work. That way, I can set the bottom plate to layout lines and laser level to set the top plate. Then I build the wall on the floor when there's enough room and I can swing it up and in. For non bearing, It is a quarter inch short and I use shims to snug it in.
The other thing under discussion is toenailing vs end nailing. I agree that end nailing is less of a joint but that doesn't matter for vertical walls if it is non-bearing or sheathed. It does torque me off to see someone building the deck that way with no toenails though.
For me, sometimes working alone, the end nailing platform frame is the fastest way and I can stand the wall up. With all the studs toenailed to the top plate, I don't know who would stand there holding the wall up while I toenailed all the stud bottoms to the bottom plate. Seems kind of shaky quaky to me.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
im just a toe nailing junkie. i think it makes a stronger joint and keeps the wood from warping
Hmmmm.....
Toenailing stronger than face nailing? My experience from doing a bunch of demo is the opposite. Very often blocking is face nailed from one end and toe nailed on the other. I find that the vast majority of the time when I hit them in the middle with a hammer, it's the toenailed end that shatters and fails. Also, pulling studs out If I get the bottom end loose, the top is easier to pull down if it's toenailed.
As for "California" framing, this is earthquake country, so we probably use more Simpson hardware than most other places.
-- J.S.
John,
Do you face nail or toenail rafters?
I've experimented both ways. If you face nail a rafter to the ridge and then pull the rafter up and down from the top plate it will pop right off the ridge in seconds. If you do same thing toenailing it's a lot harder to take off and takes alot longer.
I was taught and told from many architects and engineers that toenailing rafters is stronger. Now I'm sure someone will come up and say the opposite.
If you face nail the top of a stud from what I've seen you can pop the stud right off alot quicker then toenailing.
I've framed both ways and like both ways. This is just my opinion.
Joe Carola
> Do you face nail or toenail rafters?
Neither -- they get Simpson straps.
-- J.S.
John,
You put straps on all your rafters and not one nail from the rafter into the ridge? Why?
You see what I mean, everybody has a different way of doing things. I never put straps on rafters befor or have ever seen it done. The only thing we do is put joist hangers on doubles for skylights and headers for supporting valleys.
Joe Carola
Here from the Simpson web site is the stuff about the straps -- more than you ever wanted to know about them. (I just meant to copy the pictures, but this is what I got.) They go from the rafters to the top plates of the walls, the ridge is just toe or face nailed, whichever is more convenient at the time. That's for the typical non-structural ridge, which is a piece of one-by that's just there mainly to keep the rafters from falling over and to keep rafters for the opposite sides of the roof pushing against each other. The ridge mostly just gets compression, the real structural problem is the outward spreading force at the tops of the walls. Take a fairly heavy roof like Spanish style clay tile, add a good shake from an earthquake, and that's the connection that tends to fail first in our older buildings. That or the tile breaks loose and all slides off.
-- J.S.
HS24 Installation
View Image
H15 (H15-2 similar)
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H16 and H16SPresloped at 5:12Pitch of 3:12 to 7:12is acceptable
Pitch 0:12 to 7:12
H15 Installation
Depending on heel height, strap maywrap to back of plate.
H16(Install 4-10dx1 1/2 to edge of 2xand 6-10dx1 1/2 to face of 2x)
View Image
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H16-2and H16-2S
Presloped at 5:12. Pitch of 3:12 to 7:12 is acceptable
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Depending on heel height, strap may wrap to back of plate.
View Image H16-2
The H16-2 series has a presloped seat of 5/12, for double trusses.The presloped 5/12 seat of the H16 provides for a tight fit and reduced deflection. The strap length provides for various truss height up to a maximum of 13-1/2" (H16 series). Minimum heel height for H16 series is 4".
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Considerations for Hurricane Tie Selection
What is the uplift load?
What is the parallel-to-plate load?
What is the perpendicular-to-plate load?
What is the species of wood used for the rafter and the top plates?(Select the load table based on the lowest performing species of wood.)
Will the hurricane tie be nailed into both top plates or the upper top plate only?
What load or loads will the hurricane tie be taking?
Allowable loads for more than one direction for a single connection cannot be added together. A design load which can be divided into components in the directions given must be evaluated as follows: Design Uplift/Allowable Uplift + Design Lateral Parallel to Plate / Allowable Lateral Parallel to Plate + Design Lateral Perpendicular to Plate / Allowable Lateral Perpendicular to Plate < 1.0.
Select hurricane tie based on performance, application, installed cost and ease of installation.
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Loads have been increased 33% and 60% for earthquake or wind loading with no further increase allowed; reduce where other loads govern.
Allowable loads are for one anchor. A minimum rafter thickness of 2-1/2" must be used when framing anchors are installed on each side of the joist and on the same side of the plate.
Allowable uplift load for stud to bottom plate installation is 400 lbs (H2.5); 390 lbs (H2.5A); 360 lbs (H4) and 310 lbs (H8).
The H9KT is sold in 20 piece packs with screws.
When cross-grain bending or cross-grain tension cannot be avoided, mechanical reinforcement to resist such forces should be considered.
Hurricane Ties are shown installed on the outside of the wall for clarity. Installation on the inside of the wall is acceptable. For a Continuous Load Path, connections must be on same side of the wall.
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Loads have been increased 33% and 60% for earthquake or wind loading with no further increase allowed; reduce where other loads govern.
When cross-grain bending or cross-grain tension cannot be avoided, mechanical reinforcement to resist such forces should be considered.
HS24 allowable loads without slant nailing are 625 lbs (uplift), 590 lbs (F1), 640 lbs (F2).
For H16-2S, S = short.
john, Your style of abusing the joints in demo is different from what it endures in normnal stresses. IE how often do joist blocking pieces have to endure little explosions?
.
Excellence is its own reward!
You're right, demo methods aren't an accurate simulation of seismic loads. Maybe we should start a new thread on toenailing vs face nailing and testing methods to see which is stronger. Maybe it could even develop into an article for the magazine.
-- J.S.
We (2) did the lay out on the two intermediate plates. Whole wall lay out and then built / assembled laying on the deck. Then raised [in sections if need be] and set on the bottom plate already in place. If everything was framed in advance my cousins would help with the raising. [Labor trade.] The top, top plate was used for tie in and straightening.
Jacks and trimmers were thru nailed into the ends of the double bottom plates when ever possible. [16cc's]
A rip of rock or more often plywood took up the added wall hieght when it exsisted. This went behind the base moulding unfinished. 5/8 rock on the cieling and walls.
All roofs stick framed. All sill plates sealed. [40's, 50's and 60's]
All foundations were 8x10x24 4 cell cinder block. Post cast tie beams and lintals.
My father never used or needed to use caulk other than as a sealent. The boy was good.... Very, very good.
?????????????????
Shtick,
You might have answered this question already but do you ever sub out the sheathing?
Here in New Jersey we frame just like you do. People who never framed this way will never understand unless they've tried it just like when I framed in cape cod and framed "California Style".
I liked it. It was different but it worked. both ways. The way we frame we don't worry about the sheathing because like I said in my first post we sub it out and a sheathing crew can sheath a 4000sf house in one day. You wont believe until you see it. That's all they do every day and there fast.
I myself frame the gable ends on the deck and sheath them, put the rakes on and use the gable end as a scaffold.
Both ways obviously work because they've been doing it both ways for along time now.
Joe Carola
Edited 3/24/2003 7:59:17 PM ET by Framer
no, we never hired sheathers. back home the company i worked for did everything from start to finish, except for the roofing and mechanical work. so one day you could be raking concrete for a driveway, and the next day you could be nailing baseboards. i know not too many companies work that way anymore, but i loved it. kept things interesting.
Joe,
You should post some pics of what you are doing over at Joe Fusco's new site. What you been up to lately?
I'm curious about the sheathers. They sheathe the walls in one day? That is fast. How many guys? Do they do the roof too? How do they charge for that kind of work?
On a related note, we have the Max coil nailer. We bought it a couple of months ago. I highly recommend that gun. It is one sweet nailer. It's not light, but it is the nicest coil nailer I've used. Here is the link. http://wis.max-ltd.co.jp/int/na/pshow.php3?productcode=CN98810
Tim,
I'm finishing up the addition with the tower roof and Zeluck windows. The roofer just finished the Tower. He made each shingle out of Copper all interlocking. You have to see it. I'll will take pictures tomorrow.
As far as the sheathers, they sheathed entire 4000sf house for me in 3 hrs with 13 guys at $4.50 a sheat.
It would cost me twice as much money and time to do what they do in 3 hrs. That's why we don't worry about sheathing our walls on the deck. These guys have a system that you can't beat.
Try to picture framing all your walls without sheathing how much faster you would be and how much lighter the walls are to lift up. There's no way you can sheath a roof as fast as these guys can. Why, because they do it every day.
Each guy has a task. Speading sheats around the house, carrying sheats up the roof, nailing off the sheats, cutting the sheats. They look like ants crawling up the walls and on the roof.
Not to sound like a GOON but I was always told that I had Freak strength and I probably do until I met this sheather one day about 5' 4" tall 130 pounds wet. Ran up the ladder to the roof with 2 sheats of 5/8" plywood with one hand. I thought I was seeing things.
I couldn't do it, and I'm only 175 pounds right now, then he showed me how he did it. He had no choice because I wouldn't let him up the ladder until he showd me his technique. It was just simply balancing the sheats in the middle. Try it tomorrow you'll like it. ;-)
I'm starting a 5000sf house in a couple weeks and after that a 3000sf house.
Joe Fusco's a GOON, he doesn't even no how to use a computer not to mention having a website. ;-)
He's actually doing a gothic door for this addition that I'm on right now. He'll probably screw that up and make me look bad for recommending him and then I'll have to go to his house and smack him around a little bit. ;-)
I have 5 paslode Power Master Plus, 1 Dewalt clipped head and Hitachi framing coil nailer. Love all of them but I think I'm going to buy this Max coil nailer because you and everyone who owns one says that tey're good so I'll jump in with the big boys too.
Joe Carola
Joe,
It's been tool long since I've heard from you. You still crack me up! How did you figure Joe Fusco out so soon? :-) You don't think he is like those method actors that have to live their part do you? He's probably wearing all black and painting his fingernails!!! :-) (Just kidding Joe F.)
3hrs? That is very fast. I agree with you about how fast a framing crew is if they don't have to sheath the walls. It's easier to control the quality (at least how plumb the outside wall are) if you can plumb the walls after they are up instead of squaring them on the deck. I've carried 3/4" plywood up a ladder before and tried 2 1/2" sheets but couldn't keep them balanced. They always want to split and each sheet goes a different direction. I'm not into the macho stuff. Everyonce in awhile if someone is lipping off to me I'll challenge them to chinups wearing my nailbags. I cheat though. I either make them go first so I can beat them by one or else do it at the same time and refuse to lose no matter how hard it hurts :-)
I would say the advantage I have right now is that I have a forklift, so it's pretty fast to sheath the roof. The roof we'll start Friday is only a 5-12, so it's going to go real fast.
You will be very happy with the Max. It seems to me that the Senco coil nails are the best quality that I've seen sofar. We've tried Bostich and Grip rite, but they seem thinner.
How do you like your laser? We just bought the PLS 5x and used it today to layout the floor. It went pretty fast.
In the spirit of full disclosure: I am not a construction pro so be gentle with this bit of input (please)
Doesn't properly laid sheathing help tie it all together? (including the studs to the plates)Steelkilt Lives!
Sometimes, when you hang the sheathing to the wall first, you leave the plates un-nailed until it is up, plumbed, and settled in.
If the plates are slightly loose, you don't want to make it permanent..
Excellence is its own reward!
Tim,
Joe's building that Gothic Door with his Pink G-String on. I think he's going to post a picture of himself with the G-String on laying on top of the door when he's finished. Kind of reminds me of that episode on Sienfeld when Goerge had those pictures taken with him in his underwear. ;-)
Your not trying to visualize that now are you Tim?
Joe, Who loves you Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The sheather tacked the two sheats together first and then went up the ladder. Take Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM. Start now at 25 your still young. I started taking it about 2 years ago. It's good for your joints but I'm sure you know that already and probaly have something better being that you used to be a body builder.
Everyone who I talk to in the construction buisness no matter what trade in their 50's or 60's says they wish they starting taking this stuff years ago.
The house that I'm starting is 5000sf and is on a slab. I'll use the laser on that. Should be interesting to see how level this slab is.
Stay out of trouble and stop picking on Joe. ;-)
Joe Carola
Dang! Two sheets of 5/8's from a 130 lb. guy up a roof?!? I'm 5' 7"/125 wet and 2 sheets of 7/16" OSB is all for me on the ground. And I'm considered "strong" on my crew. Wow!
It's true. I've heard so much BS over the years, I can do this, this one guy is a strong as Bull, this one guy can carry 15 sheats on his back, this one guy can kick anybodys a##. I don't believe anybody until I see it.
When I saw this sheather, I was impressed. Watch out for the little guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remenber carry a notebook on the job and write down everything especially about Rafters. Be a pain in the A## to your boss and ask a million questions. Also print out all the imformation you get from everyone around here that answers your questions or someone elses questions that you find interesting.
Watch your back with that plywood. ;-)
Joe Carola
I've been carrying plywood to roofs like that all my life. I hate it when somebody tries to "help" me take it off at the top of the ladder. messes my hair up.
;)
I'm in agreement today at least on no sheathing on the walls to stand. I built a twenty two foot long wall and sheathed it with OSB.
Should I run home to get those wall jacks?
No way man, I'm feeling tough today and besides, the road is so muddy i might get stuck and ruin my day.
So I used the farmers jack to put it up to four feet and then heaved 'r up. Felt a little POP right in the middle of my spine - no pain but right now, I'm wondering about tomarrow morning.
next time, I'll remember the wall jacks.
good to see you back..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
How are you?
I never left, I've been here. I guess some of the things I post or say aren't to interesting to many people.
This thread is an interesting one though because of the different styles of framing. I understand them both because I've done it both ways luckily.
When I moved back from the Cape way back when I did an add-a-level on my friends house and framed all the walls and sheathed them first. It worked out great until I raised the walls over the garage.
I stood back and looked at the studs with all the sheathing on already and realized that they were way out of plumb. I couldn't understand it because when I framed the walls, befor I nailed the sheathing on I checked everything for square and it was perfect.
Then I checked his floor for level and it was 2" out on 26'.
Sheathing the walls on the floor first and then raising them is great but if the floor isn't level your wall will not be plumb after you raise them.
Quick lesson. I should have checked the floor for level first. I just cut the outside corners out and made them plumb and left all the other studs out of plumb. It was my friends house and he didn't care. I was young and stupid. If it were a customers house I would have ripped the whole wall down .
You would be amazed if you ever seen these sheathers work and they do a nice neat job too.
I just sub out the sheathing on houses. All my additions I do myself.
You would be interested in the turret roof I framed with the way the roofer did the roof. He made his own shingles out of copper and interlocked every piece 9" to the weather 21/12 pitched roof. He just finished it yesterday. The homeowner wants him to make a Dragon out of wood and then he's going to wrap it with copper and put it on the peak.
Joe Fusco is doing a Gothic Door in the back entrance. I'm sure he'll mess it up some how. ;-) I gave him a test in my last post, we'll see if he can handle it.
Nice to here from you.
Joe Carola
Edited 3/25/2003 11:00:22 PM ET by Framer
Yeah, pictures of the copper turret would be great! I guess I have just missed the threads you are in.
Tough guys - I read an article about training once by an Army Ranger who said he would rather have guys about 145# - 150# in his command instead of the big boys. He said the bigger guys wore out too quick but that the wiry ones could go all day and still fight all night. They don't wear themselves out carrying flesh around.
Still, if I had to take one good blow to the ribs, I'd much rather it came from a 150pounder than from a 220!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Oscar De La Hoya is about 150, not sure I would take a hit from just any 150 lb. guy or any 220. pound guyView ImageGo Jayhawks
Piffin,
It all depends on who and how the person is hitting. I trained with this guy Jimmy for years 6' 4" 290 lbs, broke my ribs twice but but that was with his feet (It's tough to block those big feet) He used to tell me that I kicked like a mull back then I was 165lbs. I guess all these years framing and carrying beams up and down ladders gives you strong legs.
I train in Jujitsu and you'll be surprised how alot of these 220 pounders and up can fight for 30 minutes straight. It's all conditioning.
Now my friend Mike and I are the same height and weight and he hits like he has a 100lb weight attached to his hands.
I think they used to say something like that about Roberto Duran. (Hands of Steel).
Stay out of trouble today and watch out for us little guys. ;-)
Joe Carola
Goon Boy,
You are never going to see them there doors if I don’t get the damn HINGES. So it’s been almost 3 weeks now. I put those babies back on the rack and started these vanities.
Oh, you know where I live so anytime you what to come by and start smackin’ I’ll be a waitin’ ;-).
View Image
Construction Forums Online!
There goes another good thread shot all to h*!! 'cause somebody can't stay on topic! LOL
You are gonna show us the finished product someday, aren't you?
That is if you can get hinges for those cabs..
Excellence is its own reward!
For you piffin. . . anytime ;-).View Image
Construction Forums Online!
Joe Smack Down Fusco,
Here's a picture of Karen's house of the wall where your Gothic Door is supposed to be.
If you can use your magic with your Toy Computer and fill a picture of that Gothic Door right where it's supposed to go, I wont come to your house and give you a Smack. ;-)
Joe Carola
This was a pretty cool thread, kind of an eye opener...frankly, I thought you were crazy when you first started this thread, but with yours and others explanation it makes a lot of sense. It's wild how different techniques are regionally, along with tool preferences. I wouldn't even be exposed to these diferent styles if it were not for this site and mag. The last nail gun test was full of names I never even heard! I've never even seen a framing crew use anything other than hitachi guns with few exceptions, and it would seem on the east coast almost no one does. Makes me real curious of thi Max I'm hearing about. Any ways, Frame on!
Sounds like a bunch of loose studs waving in the breeze to me. Sure can't sheath that wall on the deck.
Joe H
With four plates, does the sheetrock gap at the bottom wind up an 1 1/2" taller?
Do they use stretch rock and cut it off or shorter studs or just have a bigger gap????
Interesting, never thought of it that way.
I'll believe it when I see it. The production toenail method as you say. First of all, you're fireing two extra nails per stud( 4 8d, right?). Now what do you do when a common layout stud falls 2" next too a door or window jack? no room, o.k., you do three, two on the one side and one edge ways. Then you have too remebr to fire another nail in when the wall is up. And this business someone said about end nailing withdrawel. Get ring shank nails. And coming back again layout the top plate for cieling , a simple job may just have the cieling menbers line up with the 16" o.c. studs in the wall. I'll stick with what you call the california method. Works for me.
I can't believe that anyone still frames like this..........I thought I was a true dinosaur!
This is it.....the 'real' way to frame!!!!!! I was taught this way almost thirty years ago and have never looked back. Tried the 'other' way and just couldn't like it.
And it's true about what some might think seeing this method; like you were aliens on crack or something.
I was taught and still believe that there are several advantages;
Sheathing extends down to the sole plate on the foundation and spans the box beam and carries up to the wall; VERY strong if you nail the crap out of it!
You can actually plumb and straighten the walls even if the foundation is not 100% true.
Toe nailing IS stronger and it is possible to fine tune the face of the stud flush with the plate with a toenail to start instead of trying to smash a spike into the end grain.
A mechanic or two can run around a framed story with the helpers and tack all the sheating in place and then lose them for the day.........nail all the plywood and nail it good damnit!!!!!!
I have framed, sheathed, fascia and sophitt, roofed, windowed and doored 3000sq. ft. in ten days flat; two mechanics, three helpers, long 8 hour days and had fun doing it. Dam I miss that!
I have been on jobs where they framed up to the roof with out sheathing. Even with GOOD bracing it was a little scary to be around. We alway (almost) sheathed what we framed.
Eric
Edited 3/27/2003 7:59:32 PM ET by firebird