Framing square to lay out stair stringer
brucemch
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’m getting ready to layout some stair stringers for a stair case and everything I’ve read says to to place one gauge on the tongue (narrow part) of the framing square for the risers and place the other gauge on the blade (wider part) for the treads.
My question is does it make a difference if it was reversed and the tongue was used for the treads and the blade was used for the risers and if so, what would be the outcome.
Thanks,
Bruce
Replies
bruce... youu can do it any way you want .. so long as you get a right angle.. and your run and rise comes out the way you intend
also don't forget to shorten for the bottom riser
you can also calculate the digonal points and lay the points out on the edge of the stringer
Mike, I'm surprised at you! His stairs will run to the basement<G> Outside of the gates the trucks were unloadin',
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
Shorten the bottom riser? Ok, for the thickness of the tread. But also remember to lengthen the bottom riser to account for the finish floor thickness.
If you want you can simply cut out a triangle of cardboard of the appropriate size -- it's the triangle that's important, not the legs of the square.
However, I prefer to calculate the pitch of the and work it out numerically, to avoid the cumulative error inherent in the framing square technique.
There is no cumulative error if you have an eagle eye like mine!;)
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Bruce,
Mike's advice is on. This is probably obvious, but make sure you use either the outside of the square or the inside for your measurements. If you transpose it will not be pretty.
The diagonal point is a very good one. If I want my stairs to be dead on, I always use a calculator and plot every point where the tread intersects with the riser. You can eliminate accumulation of error this way (see attached .pdf file).
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm surprised how many of us do the calculate-the-points method. Whenever I show it to other carpenters they look at me like I have two heads.
"This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig
"Whenever I show it to other carpenters they look at me like I have two heads."Maybe you do?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Now we know what those twin nines are on his name!
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You guys are on to me....
"This is a process, not an event."--Sphere
And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig
I use a computer:
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I use my cell phone.
So - you call for a pizza delivery and let them build the stairs in order to collet the tip?
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Is it long enough?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I think it is the cord! He ties a knot every so often for the vector points.
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That's great, but while I may use a computer for a lot of things, I typically do not have one handy when I'm laying out stringers.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Maybe you should.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
jon... i would be using a CMIII +trig to run the calcs and my framing square & guages to do the layoutMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You aren't the Dan H and His Hot Licks, are you? lol
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Cooled considerably, I'm afraid.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Using the inside of the square is far mor likely to leave you with cumulative error.This is because you have to cover your previously made line /step to set in place for the next one. Leaves you working half in the blind, IMO
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Maybe,I would make the argument that an experienced carpenter can use both sides with equal accuracy, because they know how to project the end their mark out into space, as need be.I still like a calculator.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If you move the square from the previous mark, you won't have to worry about missing it. Just make sure the pencil is really sharp. Or, use a knife, like marking for dovetails.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I like using a mechanical pencil: 0.7mm lead is constant width.
As to creep, that sure is a problem made worse by the lumber's radiused corners.
Checking the points against each other is how I detect whether creep has occured. Next ones, I'll lay one stringer out, then transfer the points to the other, then use square with gauges to mark my cutlines. Helps when the lumber has minimal crowning, and both crowns are up. lol.
Fellow here a few months ago said that his dad or FIL had taught him to clamp his framing square in a kerfed piece of wood, maybe 30" long. This acts as a fence, and negates much of the crown error which is amplified by the relatively short span of the stair gauges.
By calculating the points, do you mean you calculate the length of your diagonal? In your drawing you show 13.89. If you do this you still need to be sure that your square is consistantly square to your intended rise and run. Right? I guess you can easily do this by knowing that (in your case rise of 7 and run of 12) square will line up with the 7 for rise and 12 for run. Right?
Yes, you still need to use a framing square (or piece of ply with nails in it) to layout your marks but the benefit of marking the points of each intersection (13.89, 27.78, 41.67, 55.56, etc.) is that your not likely to be more than an eighth off at each step no matter how sloppy your marking is.The trick doesn't help you with the actual marking, just making sure your marks are in the right place.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Actually, you don't need the framing square. Make your marks, make the top and bottom cuts and place the stringer in position. Then use a level to draw level and plumb lines from each mark.If you're not using cut stringers but cleats instead (my preference for deck stairs), you level the cleats as you install them.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Sure you could do that (although you still need to mark the top & bottom cuts) but you can get results that are just as accurate by employing production techniques like cutting your stringers on sawhorses and using your first cut stringer as a template for the others.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Good point. Thanks.
It all depends whether you want the steps to go up or down. <g>
_______________________________________________________________
It ain't what you make, it's what you don't spend
However you do the layout, mark the intersecting points on both edges of the first stringer, the inside edge and the front face. When you've cut that stringer and made sure it fits, lay it on the second stringer, transfer all the intersecting points as well as the top and bottom cuts. Then, even if there's a small error or two, cumulative or otherwise, both stringers will be exactly the same and the errors won't effect the fit of any piece.
Forget the stair gauges entirely.
Lay out one rise/run with your square on a 2X block of wood or piece of 1 1/8 plywood.
Cut it accurately, screw a 1 x 3 that is about 1" shorter than the diagonal measurement on the diagonal edge.
Now you have a pattern block, use a sharp knife blade to trace the rise/ runs using the math to find the frequency to lay the pattern block out on . No worries about your gauges slipping, knife marks prevent creep that happens from trying to see pencil lines centers
Edited 4/2/2007 9:16 pm by dovetail97128
Gosh, the kid at HD said they sell stair stringers so you don't have to do any of the work! *chuckle*
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"Gosh, the kid at HD said they sell stair stringers so you don't have to do any of the work! *chuckle* "
There is a photo of some of these precuts in the BI office here, with a caption explaining that it is not ok to have the top rise of your stairs 9" when the rest of the precut stringer is 7". or something to that effect.
Yeah, there're great. You just have to change all the floor elevations to make the rise work!!
Looks like you are getting lots of good advice and humor here. I hope you enjoy both.
Since you have not done this before, I will make one suggestion. The easiest way to mess up the layout, IMO, even when you have the right numbers, such as 7.625" and 10" on the square, is to not correctly judge the imaginary intersection between the projected lines off of the square and the true edge of the board. This will make more sense after you try to get the layout on the board. Use light pencil marks for the first couple of tries.
Also, if you are not using engineered lumber for the stringers, make sure you have the crown on the top of the stringer.
IMO, the little clamps (that I've seen) are defective in that they don't extend out far enough to guarantee that you're safely over the radiused edge of some lumber.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The other problem is that if they land on an imperfection, which is almost everywhere on rough lumber, they throw the layout off. I like using the plywood triangle method best. Plus you can sometimes reuse your pattern for the next job. The key here is to make the pattern carefully, use a long-enough fence, and accurately project to the edge.
I would think that you could make a plywood (or maybe acrylic) gauge with a slightly adjustable "fence", so it could be used for different stairs. Two or three should cover common pitches pretty well.You could even put strips of metal (also adjustable) on the bottom of the fence, sticking out at each end so that their ends fell exactly on the scribe line.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
We make a new "adjustable" fence for every set of stairs.
Whack a corner of plywood...any thickness will do, but I like 3/8". Mark the rise and run on edge. Connect those marks with a pencil line. Put a couple nails in along side the line.
Slide the template along the edge. The nails should protrude far eneough to glide over the eased edges of the lumber.
Fast, free and always the exact rise and run that you need.
Toss out after pulling the nails.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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That idea is simple, fast, and flawless!Thanks, got it marked down in that orner of my head
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I forgot to post the pic.
I've tried lots of different ways, but this is my favorite. I'm thinking hard about that saw kerf idea though and will probably try that in some fashion if I ever build another set of stairs (very likely).
blue
edit: ignore the dimensions..... I am still having a hard time with sketchup
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Edited 4/4/2007 1:59 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
Yeah, that kerf idea was great too!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, that's a pretty long run on that tread.Computers: You love 'em and hate 'em.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I hate them....as much as I love them.
I tried some new things and managed to get the right dimensions...almost.
This pic also show some tics that I always put on the template (I forgot to include them in the original). I put these on the template so I can mark all the risers and runs and make the top and bottom adjustments without taking out my tape or square. I'm truly a lazy man.
One interesting thing about this system is that the tics align themselves perfectly in line with the lines that I draw on the lumber. I haven't calculated the unit lengths and total lengths as others have suggested in a couple of years (probably a decade or so) but I'd be interested to see how much my system varies from the exact theoretical length. I suspect it would be very close, if I'm using a very sharp pencil (I don't....usually my pencil is sharp enough...). I used to use the system of diagonal measurements when I routed most stairs but I abandoned it when our region stopped using closed stringers.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Dan,
I posted this trick before.
Take a piece of straight 1 x 2, 30"-36" long, rip a kerf in from each end it's 3/4 side , leaving about 6" unsawn in the middle. This makes an ideal tool to slip your framing sq. into and clamp it on the blade/tongue using a few screw or even small "c" clamps.
Set the new tool to the numbers you want and you have a layout tool that stays in adjustment, is easy to use and slide along the stock. Dad's old trick, although I have read about it in old carpentry books .
That's a good one - the best I've heard yet. The only thing I could think of that would be easier would be to have someone else do it for you, except I get a true enjoyment from creating a "perfect" set of stringers.
That is a good trick. I've avoided stair buttons for a long time and just clamped a scrap to my square, but it's one-sided which limits how I can lay out around defects.
You should write that one in to the magazine. Maybe they'll send you some cookies.
I like that plywood triangle too but I've never had any problem using buttons. It takes a little patience to get them both spotted correctly on the square. But after that, I'm able to see and mark the intersection very easily, even with the slight round over on dimensional lumber.
Do you ever end up with waney edged lumber? We seem to get a lot of it here.
<<Do you ever end up with waney edged lumber? We seem to get a lot of it here.>>
Wavey? No, not that I recall. But I've almost always selected my stringer stock at the yard.
No, waney, having wane, or edges that aren't square because they were too close to the outside edge of the tree. Makes it hard to use stair buttons.
Wish I had time to go to the yard and pick out all my lumber--we get most everything delivered.
<<No, waney, having wane, or edges that aren't square because they were too close to the outside edge of the tree. Makes it hard to use stair buttons.>>
We wuz expecting wane wayter dis week. Weel-we we wuz.
I wuzn't ah-way-ya of dhat wurd. Knot until dis veh-we moment. Den wane uh-wived and eveh-we-ding wuz won-duh-ful.
Yeah, although I wasn't acquainted with that term, that would be one of the conditions which would eliminate a particular 2X from the "good" pile...for stringers or treads.
I use the same technique for rafter layout, most often for jacks as I often gang mark or cut the commons. Set the square up once and use it for marking top and bottom cuts, seats etc.
Once a good pattern is made then I use it but check the rafters with the square periodically to keep myself honest. (I mean the cuts, I don't step rafters off.)
I may actually have done that back when FHB was a new rag on the market.
I sent in several tips back then. Some got published, some not. The "tips" section is the second place I look when I get my copy ... the first is " Great Moments..." Best deal I ever got was busting "Skil" corp. for posting an advertising pic in FHB that showed their newest saw with the blade mounted backwards!!! Talk about safety blows !! They wrote me and told me that they couldn't find a blade that had the printing on the correct side to show it off on the sidewinder saw they were picturing in their ad. Sent me a dozen blades with the letter.
Bruce - Regardless which way you lay it out, be careful with the initial measurement for your tread.
FWIW, I just finished a set today and after I had everything cut, I found out that there was 3/8" difference in the width of the PT 2x12 I was using from one baord to the next. Of course, I had laid it out and cut it based on the wider board...
Don K.
EJG Homes Rentals - Renovations - New Construction
Edited 4/3/2007 9:22 pm ET by DonK
Personally I use stair gauges. It is not as hard as it might seem from reading this post. Slight cumulative errors are not a problem and that's all you'll get if you have a good straight edge on your stringer to reference from. I always make a pattern stringer and cut all others to match. Slight errors are not problems when your stringers are well matched.
If one or more stringers has a slight curve... use the straightest one for the pattern and clamp the others straight when laying out. The assembly process will permanently fix them in line. Make them crown upward as a camber allowance. They are fairly flexible after cutting and will pull into line pretty effectively.