This past weekend I was at a family gathering of sorts and listened to someone talk about a situation in which he just learned that in the fine state of Georgia, and more specifically his county, had no requirements for being a general contractor other than the run of the mill business license. He was simply astonished.
I remember being just as astonished when I learned this 5-7 years ago. The state requires general contractors and developers to have a business license, but there are no professional requirements that we know of–other than saying, “I’m a builder.”
Conversely, the various subcontractors that go into building something are held liable for this through professional testing and issuance of professional licenses. So, imagine how the condition arises–as I am sure you have heard this a hundred times before–client gives money to GC, GC hires subs, subs do the work, GC doesn’t pay the subs and instead quietly disappears, subs place lien on client’s property, and the client get’s the double corkscrew.
Ten minutes later GC applies for a new $69 business license under another name. Repeat. I am curious which states have professional testing and or educational requirements for general contractors and developers, and which mandate professional licensing, just like the subcontractors?
Replies
Hey Nuke
Georgia is finally getting around to contractor licensing:
http://www.sos.state.ga.us/plb/contractors/default.htm
Jay
Jay, this is fantastic! Finally, the state becomes accountable for who they 'approve' and not. I would imagine between this and the illegal labor stance GA just took the building environment will start to change over the next couple of years.
I hope so Nuke. I just noticed on the state's site that they already extended the mandatory date of getting licensed from July 2007 to Jan 2008 (I'm sure they're starting to get a backlog)....who knows when it will finally kick in, but it's a step in the right direction (I hope).Jay
Ahhh, back again with more doom and gloom questions.
Ok, I'll bite. Ohio has no formal licensing for residential construction. DanT
You do know which states have the lowest level of education. If you can't read and write it would be impossible to pass a test. So somebody needs ot give them a break if we want to keep the unskiled employed. Isn't that what Bush is advocating by allowing the folks from Mexico to come over and then grant them citizenship just by the fact that hthy are here.
I'm not sure about the reading & writing comment, gb93433. Whilest I wouldn't be surprised at the ability to comprehend technical documents on the part of the GC/developers, I'd find it more so with 90% of the labor in the subcontractors as well. I fail to believe that the bulk of Home Depot's and Lowe's business is in the extreme SW part of the USA and Spanish-speaking at that. Instead, I'm more inclined to believe the observed conditions.
Do you think if any state GC/builder exam were in spanish the georgian builders would more easily pass it for a professional licence?
"Conversely, the various subcontractors that go into building something are held liable for this through professional testing and issuance of professional licenses. So, imagine how the condition arises--as I am sure you have heard this a hundred times before--client gives money to GC, GC hires subs, subs do the work, GC doesn't pay the subs and instead quietly disappears, subs place lien on client's property, and the client get's the double corkscrew."
That is why they have lien releases.
You should get with before/with the payments.
I am not sure, but all of the licensing requirements do that much either. Look at California. TON's of complaints about defective home construction.
Your example is not that unusual.
MO for one has no state wide codes or licencsing for ANY TRADES. Howver many counties/cities do have building codes and license plumbers/electricans.
And AFAIK none of the cities in the Kansas City area have any licensing requirement for builders other than business license/registration.
I believe that KS is very similar.
And I think that Boss Hog has said that IL has no state wide codes and the only licensed trade is roofers for some odd reason.
A couple of years ago on Compusereve I got into such a discussion with a contractor from CA and said that I was crazy and you needed a contractors license EVERYPLACE.
Then he found a link on the Kansas City web site and the title was contractors licenses. Posted it and said that he would not participate in a forum that allow idiots like me to post.
However, he never bothered to click on that link.
Yes, KC does license "contractors" and IIRC it include demolition, elevators and sprinklers. BUT IT DID NOT INCLUDE GENERAL CONTRACTORS.
And in a different Compuserve forum a HO was complaining about contractors in CA and how the laws where rigged towards the contractors and the lien laws favorited them. And that he was looking at a bathroom redo and would only use HD.
Turns out that he had his roof redone. Don't know anything about the roofing contractor or if he was licensed, etc. But the HO either made out a check to the shingle supplier or he made out a joint one to the contractor and supplier.
Anyway the contractor was behind in payments to the supplier by several jobs. So although this order was explicitely paid for the supply went ahead and placed a lien for several months until the contractor had paid enough to catch up to that job.
However, that was pure fraud on the part of the supplier and tried to tell the HO to report him to the state AG.
In Connecticut, builders and remodeling contractors have to register with the state, promise they aren't convicted felons, and give the Treasurer money. I find that too invasive, but that's me.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Hi Andy. I appreciated your info on CT a while back. Seems the missus and I will be landing in West Port, hopefully June if we can get our home in Raleigh rented.Guess I'll be able to use my North Carolina General Contractors License as wallpaper up there. I do think licensing and testing can help the public by weeding out the dumbest of dumbs, the exam here is 3 hours and pretty wide in coverage and no walk in the park. You also need references and financials.All that being said there are still guys who cram for the exam and really don't know, understand or appreciate carpentry.Be interesting to see how my 'gdboss' trailer stands up to regular snow.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Welcome to Connecticut. Bring your billfold.
A couple of things you should know. The first is about the CMU, or Connecticut Monentary Unit. Right now, it's equivelent to $100 US. The minimum anything costs here is 1 CMU. Oil change? 1 CMU. Quick stop at the grocery store? 1 CMU, if the sales are good. About the only bargain left in the state is Starbucks, where you can still get a $4 cup of joe.
The next thing you need to know is that while the DMV takes checks for license and registration, the emissions testing guys only take cash. It's better to realize this when you're at the back of the line, not the front. Finally, don't be surprised by the personal property tax levied on your vehicles. The initial motor vehicle process consumes about 4 CMUs from the average family.
When you register as a home improvement contractor, you have to get a sales tax number first, even though you're not required to collect sales tax on home improvements. This takes 4 to 6 weeks if you do it by mail, about 2 weeks if you do it online. Once you have your tax number, you have to file quarterly returns even though the last number you enter on the form is always 0. This makes perfect sense because many contractors forget to file these pointless forms, which gives the State the opportunity to levy a penalty of - wait for it - 1 CMU. After you get your tax number, it takes about two weeks to get your contractor's license, which costs 2 CMUs annually.
BTW, I think licensing contractors hurts the public by limiting their choices and driving up prices. The more stringent the licensing requirements, the fewer contractors there are, and the more they can charge, which impacts low imcome folks more than others, resulting in any number of three-toothed idiots attempting their own electrical work. But, I am a curmudgeon who always votes no on school budgets, too.
Seriously, welcome to the Land of Steady Habits. I've lived here since '98, and it really feels like home.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I think you overlooked the WFU (Westport Financial Unit) to CMU conversion Andy. Devalue your CMUs by 50% minimum gd...
But another welcome to CT. If you need any help settling in, drop me a line.
PaulB
Thanks for all the encouraging news - not. You forgot to mention that I''m giving up the land of milk and honey for the land of ice and snow. But where SWMBO goes so I follow, my skill set being more geographically transferrable. Fortuntely one of us has a 'real' paying job. And hpoefully, in 5 years, she will earn a parking sticker for the train station!!!!!!!Rumour has it that for the price of admission to West Port I get a super discount rate at their golf course, one has to look at the bright side.Funny thing is I started off life in the cold boonies of northern Ontario, Canada eh! After Africa, Bermuda, Little Rock and now Raleigh I seem to be heading toward completing a full circle. Gotta love life.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
As I may have mentioned by email, there's good money to made in the trades here, and the upside of Westport's version of the CMU is that you can charge commensurately. There are a lot of carpenters living in my town who drive the 45 miles to Westport to work. You can probably find work within walking distance. Be careful with that, though. Walking in Westport, unless you're a yuppy Mom pushing a pram, might draw the attention of the gendarmes.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Let me give you a sense of life on the "Gold Coast" (your new area). A friend is a remodeling contractor in that area, mainly restoration work. He's working on some joint worth as much as the GNP of New Zealand. The HOs are having the kitchen redone as well (not his project). He hears the wife on the phone screaming at the appliance suppier that the SubZero they just delivered doesn't go with something or other, apparently she acknowledges it is what she ordered but she just don't like it. She says to John, "I can't bear the sight of this, just get it out of my kitchen". He replies "but Ma'am... I'm not with that company, I'm doing the restoration on the carriage house". She says "I don't care who you are, do you want this refrigerator or don't you?" Needless to say it was loaded on his truck in minutes. Never heard a word about it, or a request to return it...
Welcome to lower Fairfield County, highest per capita in the US ;)
You're right, Paul. We still use the LCMU here (Litchfield County Monentary Unit), which is tied directly to the CMU.
I got a bargain the other day - It only cost .85CMUs to have my truck towed 5 miles.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
>>BTW, I think licensing contractors hurts the public by limiting their choices and driving up prices. The more stringent the licensing requirements, the fewer contractors there are, and the more they can chargeNot sure if I agree with that - it seems to me that there should be something a contractor should have to go through, even if just the licensing exam to weed out the serious lowrents.I'm in Michigan, and here to get a residential builder's license you have to pass a licensing exam that is broken up into two parts - business/law, and trade practices.The business/law portion covers everything from Osha codes and violations to specific departmental policies to liability and workman's comp insurance.
The trades portion of the exam covers all trades from grading to excavation to cement work to framing to siding to roofing to builder's math, etc.If you pass the builder's license exam, they allow you to apply for the license. When you apply, they check out your credit and background record.I started out a year and a half ago - been learning on job as I go in terms of the business side and estimating, etc. Every job brings a new lesson, no matter how small (or large...)I recently took the exam and passed both sections and have an application in process now.In Michigan - any job over $600 is illegal unless performed by a licenced contractor. Also, any contract entered into with an unlicenced contractor is un-enforcable - no matter the lanquage. There is no valid contract over $600 if you are unlicenced in MI.The exam was not as crazy as the hundred's of hours of on the job they require for electricians or plumbers, but it was a wide ranging somewhat difficult exam that might weed out the flyByNight folks that probably shouldn't be working on people's houses anyways.JT
For me, the basic question is this: Who gets to decide who can work on my house? Me? or the state? I gotta say it's me.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Well in any given circumstance you can decide that question. If you want an unlicenced guy to do the work for you - so be it. As a knowledgeable homeowner, you make that decision knowing that there are possible risks involved, perhaps on both sides.The protections that are in place are not for folks like you - they are there for the single housewife or eldery folks, or just construction-inexeperienced folks of any type that could go into a project totally ignorant of what's really involved and what could go wrong.I'm no pro-government guy myself, but as a contractor (soon to be licensed), I can see why there should be some sort of certification for people who build, repair and remodel houses.I think it rather insteresting that in order to get a license in MI for cutting hair, you have to have so many hours training, but to build houses you just have to pass an exam.JT
So, it's OK for me to break the law because I know better? I don't think so. It would be nice to have that option, what with some animals being more equal than others and all. And having seen some perfect hack jobs from licensed trades, I'm not convinced that licensing does a whole lot of good, either.
But, it really is a pointless argument because you're the de facto winner. I just don't like it, and think that many people fail to see the downside to increased government protection - which is nearly always an erosion of individual liberty. We've given up so much of that in the last couple of centuries that we hardly notice each little piece leaving.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
As far as I can tell, New York has no licensing requirements for general or specialty contractors.
NYC might be different.
Gene -
Licensing in NY seems to be done on the county level at least for the moment. On Long Island, both counties require licensing and occasionally have sting operations to follow up. They have only recently gotten the building codes to agree from county to State. Licenses may be next, but that eliminates all the local revenue. I believe NYC does have their own rules. Upstate? Out west? I have no idea. Does it really help the homeowner - absolutely not. The thieves crooks and liars still find a way around the license and insurance req'ts.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
"For me, the basic question is this: Who gets to decide who can work on my house? Me? or the state? I gotta say it's me."I would hate to own a house next to you if the bulder did a lousy job. I have seen homeowners run wires spliced with tape in the middle of walls.
I would hate to own a house next to you if the bulder did a lousy job. I have seen homeowners run wires spliced with tape in the middle of walls.
I've seen that too, in places where licensed contractors and permits were required. One reason for that is that licensing requirements limit the labor supply, driving up the cost, and pricing some potential customer out of the market. Which gets you taped splices.
Like drug laws, codes only work on those willing to be regulated, or they require an onerous government intervention.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I have seen galvanized and copper pipes put together in areas which required little or nothing to get a license except to sign up and pay your money. In many cases I have seen the most obvious violations of many different building codes simply because they do not know the codes. In CA where I have spent most of my life I have never seen copper and galvanized directly hooked together once. In that state they require a minimum of four years of experience and to take a test given by the state. The majority of people taking the test do not pass the first time. Yet they have been in the trade for at least four years. The GC is responsible for the bulding for 10 years. As a GC I would not take the risk of risking losing my license by doing stupid things. In CA the owner has more than just the law they also have the contractors state license board who they can file a complaint with. Contractoes do not like that because it is published. A lot of information is available on their website about particular contractors. In many other states nothing is required and I see alll kinds of mistakes that are rather obvious to the person who knows. When I looked for a home in Iowa almost every home had obvious code violations mostly stairs.
It's all a question of values. I value liberty more than this degree of safety. You don't. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Those are old values. I also value paying much less in insurance with a no accident record. Many years ago I saw my supervisor killed because he fell off of a building. He left behind a young wife and daughter. That accident could have been entirely prevented. The men hardly worked for about one week. That costs a lot of money plus the fact of one life. Not only that, it left his family with much less financially and for his wife to try and raise a family.
Edited 4/30/2006 5:20 pm by gb93433
Sorry to hear the story of your friend's death. I can only imagine the trauma.
Yes, my values are old. But if you ever visit one of my jobs, you'll see one of the safest around, and you'll see sound workmanship. I no longer have employees, because I prefer working alone. When I did, however, there was a safety policy in place, which I enforced. It slowed us down. That was fine. None of these things are done because the state says to, although they do. They're done because I also believe in integrity and personal responsibility, even when no one is looking. Absent that mindset, all the laws in the world don't matter. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I would disagree with you about laws in one way. Laws can help to point out what is required. They can serve to help people know about how things are to be done. If someone wants to have a disregard for others and have poor ethics then laws are useless except prosecution.
in california you have to have 4 years documentable experience as a journeyman in order to take the test, and in order to be a journeyman you must show some documentable experience as an apprentice or helper, or some education or combination.
and the test is not easy, however i was able to pass by studying on my own for the law and business section, i did not study at all for the trades portion. you people have read my posts, if i can do it.........
Last time I checked it was four years of experience and of that at least one year had to be journeyman level. They will take some college into account as part of the experience. The majority of people who fail the first time fail in the trade section. I passed it the first time but met people who had taken it twice before.
PA has no licensing of contractors.
there's always talk of licensing ... which I support ... till they get down to the specifics ... which always end up ... no testing.
just bring a check and some background info.
I ain't buying into that ... that's just another tax.
if they had a plan where there was testing of some sort ... cut down on my competition ... something I could advertise that I actually passed a test as opposed to had enough money in the checking account that day ... I'd be on board.
till then ... I'm all for no licensing.
City of Pgh requires a city license to pull a permit ... show up breathing with a check ... yer qualified!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
New Jersey recently adopted licensing of contractors. But there is no test or qualification required other than to have GL (500/500) insurance and to send in a $75 application fee. Rumors are it might get stricter in the future.
Here's a list of all the States and their requirements.
http://www.clsi.com/state_contractor_license_board.htm
It does amaze me that in a lot of localities, you can become "licensed" by showing proof of insurance and paying a nominal fee. Nothing more is required.
But what REALLY amazes me is that people actually believe (especially in these localities) that by being licensed, you are a better tradesman. Or homeowners believe that by hiring a "licensed professional" they are protected from getting screwed.
I'm all for licensing, as long as it does something productive (like weed out the hacks somehow) instead of just lining the city coffers.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
Hey Pete, nice find!
I was reading some of the PDF files on the Georgia website, especially about the grandfathering aspect. Must show proof of two-years prior good-standing in the trade with affidavids from those you have worked with, including your banker, etc., must have a net worth of $300-500K plus a minimum $50K line of credit from your primary banker.
They are going to classify a professionaly-licensed builder as a 'licensed agent'. Developers themselves do not have to have a license, but rather must maintain a licensed agent on staff. This is bad, IMO, because unless the developer [of questionable practices] cannot dupe a licensed agent into working for them within four months of losing the last duped license agent, only then are they prohibited from the trade.
Affidavids resulting from greased palms might make it just as easy for a bad person to get grandfathered as a good person. I did like the aspect of owner-builder as the state sees it. Seems that if you own land and want to build a structure on it you do not need to hire a licensed GC, or have a license yourself. You are not allowed to sell the property, but if you do then you are prohibited for a period of two-years before being allowed to build again.
Anyway, I'm now wondering if the honest small-builder will have trouble on these new requirements. Maybe, maybe not. I couldn't find anything yesterday on the exam itself. I was curious as to what they were going to cover in required-knowledge, mandatory classroom time, etc., but the exam-exemption fee is $200. I think the state will follow suit along the lines of the real estate license framework. And nothing suggests, beyond codes, county requirements for builder licensing.