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Two months ago, we purchased 2000 ft of 3-1/2″ select and better
unfinished maple flooring. According to the dealer, it was milled in Canada, then held at a warehouse in Brockton, MA (I’m new to this forum; I’m not sure if I’m supposed to mention company names). Three weeks ago, it was delivered to our site and stacked in the appropriate rooms to acclimate. We’re a few miles from the ocean and it does get humid in the summer.
Three days ago, we opened some bundles to start laying it down and immediately found discrepancies in the widths, resulting in gaps approximately 1/16 inch. We immediately stopped and had the dealer send a rep to the site. The rep claims that we held the flooring uninstalled for too long, which caused uneven moisture absorption and end swelling, more common in maple than oak. His explanation for the uneven swelling was that some pieces had only one end exposed in the bundle.
Although he claims it’s not possible, I felt the problem was poor milling. Every source I’ve got says the more acclimation time the better. I borrowed a moisture meter, and tested the flooring at 6% to 8% and the 3/4″ plywood subfloor at 14% to 16%. I’ve had a dehumidifier running in the basement for 2 weeks, trying to establish the recommended 4% max differential between the flooring and subfloor. I’m not sure it’s going to happen.
The dealer is replacing the flooring next week and claims we should install it immediately, before it has a chance to absorb moisture and swell. He also claims that once the flooring is down, it will swell to close any small gaps. I intend to open some bundles immediately upon delivery to check the widths.
I’d welcome any comments to help me determine what I’m dealing with.
Thanks,
Jeff
Replies
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Jeff:
I think you're right in saying it's a milling problem unless the boards are "twisted" considerably which become difficult to nail w/o leaving some gaps. I've seen this with Maple before, often throwing 5% of the job into the dumpster If there are absolute differences in widths it's obvious the milling is off. I've done alot of work on the beaches here in Florida but we always insist on running the air to acclimate and it really boils down to who the manufacturer is. Some are good and some are bad.
Hope i've Helped
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Why not go to the dealers warehouse and measure the flooring before your new delivery date. The moisture content of the sub floor before wood delivery should be 10 - 12%. If your flooring is milled correctly and your subfloor normal moisture content is that high I would recommend installing the floor immediately and then waiting at least three weeks before finishing the floor. You might want to run your heating system for a few days to get your moisture content down.
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OK, I guess I just don't get all this talk about "changing the humidity level in the building". It seems backwards to me. That humidity level is the natural condition of the building and it seems to me it's the FLOORING that has to change to the ambiant level, not the home. As soon as you remove all those dehumidifiers and whatever, the house will return to whatever level the climate provides, and you're gonna have problems again. Seems to me, the closer you can get the wood to be installed, and the building itself, without artificial devices, the better chance you stand of getting long lasting, good results. I think the longer you acclimate the material (whether it's flooring or furnitire material) the better.
Now, I have been reading Ken's posts for quite some time here, and believe him to be a flooring professional, and I certainly consider his advice sound. But am I all wet about this "acclimating" thing?
*...i don't know about the acclimating thing ... but it's common knowledge yur all wet about everything else...hey, i'm gonna go weed my garden... i know how to do that.....maple flooring out a 16th... can u imagine ?
*Jim,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*OK. I know very little about this. But I am not seeing anyone give the answer I expected to see. So I'm asking.Jeff says:> Three weeks ago, it was delivered to our site and stacked in the appropriate rooms to acclimateThen he says:> Three days ago, we opened some bundlesMy question is: When you bring the wood in to aclimate, shouldn't you unbundle it? If it's bundled, won't the wood on the outside of the bundle acclimate more than the wood on the inside of the bundle?Jeff states further:> The rep claims that we held the flooring uninstalled for too long, which caused uneven moisture absorption and end swelling, more common in maple than oak. His explanation for the uneven swelling was that some pieces had only one end exposed in the bundle.Although I would think the "held the flooring uninstalled for too long" remark is nonsense, the further point of uneven swelling due to "one end exposed in the bundle" make perfect sense to me.If I am wrong, I would appreciate someone explaining the why of it to me.Thanks,Rich Beckman
*Jeff,I have done a fair amount of flooring, but am not a flooring professional like Ken. I have two bits of advice.1. If you have some flooring that is slightly wider than others, use this all in the same course(s). I have never had the luxury of laying a floor where all the pieces were exactly the same width.2. Do NOT lay this floor in the summer in your location. Wait till at least late September. End of story.MD
*Yeah, that's my understanding of it too, Joe. But it seems like a dehumidifier is trying to acclimate the house to the wood, not vica versa. Doesn't the ambiant humidity level exist naturally? So it seems to me, you have to leave the wood there to acclimate as long as it takes to get the subfloor and the flooring within 2 or 3 per cent.
*Hey Guys:Check out the floorboards.com message board and use the search option in new and archived areas in regards to acclimation. Jeff Hosking has alot of great comments and he's very close to Jeff Katz's location. As for South Florida many of us run the air constantly 6-8 months out of the year so the flooring doesn't go through the massive swings in humidity levels like folks do up north.Rich if you take the bundles apart and loose lay or "rack" the floor and let it set for too long chances are the boards will twist and lose the straightness they had in the bundle. The milling or channeling(for lack of a better term) on the bottom of each board allows for air passage.
*ken... when u said..((Rich if you take the bundles apart and loose lay or "rack" the floor and let it set for too long chances are the boards will twist and lose the straightness they had in the bundle. The milling or channeling(for lack of a better term) on the bottom of each board allows for air passage. ))))this is the way we always try to do strip oak and SYP.... clean up .. lay down red rosin paper.. loose lay the flooring .. and come back 3 days later to install..(this in a fairly stable house...after the gross amounts of water have dissipated..)do you find that the disadvantages of laying them loose outway the advantages... or is this peculiar to maple and some of the other species..if we find a piece that won't snug up we usually cut it at the offending location and use it for an end piece..do you find the occasional gaps to be acceptable and part of the nature of the beast.. or do you get 100 % closure.... for the most part i'll accept an irregularity in say ten pieces laid.... and i cull the rejects to the dumpster as i go..i find that most of the tiny gaps that look like canyons to my critical eye tend to disappear in the finishing process.... do you have a higher standard ?.. i guess my question is ... don't you lay them as they come.. and cull the bad pieces... and sort as mad dog said.. if you have one run just keep all the same widths in that run....and in the end they all tend to blend and fill in the finishing...do you do filling ?...when i started it was pretty standard to fill with a paste filler.. usually after the initial coat of poly..... now i don't see anyone filling...
*The flooring should have been unbundled and spread out on the floor in the room in which it was to be installed. However, this still could be crappy milling........I'm a furniture maker and I've had more trouble out of Maple than any other wood I've ever worked with, FWIW.
*CS is right about Maple as it can be a strange animal. Mike, I can't give a good opinion on how and what works "up north" as I've never done HW in a freeze/thaw climate. What works for me in Florida may not work well in Rhode Island.Red rosin paper is a no-no as I deal strictly with 15# roofing paper which is the recommended method of a moisture retarder on wood sub floors from the NWFA(National Wood Flooring Assoc/woodfloors.org). Rosin paper actually absorbs moisture according to Jeff at floorboards and I've never seen it used except on some home improvement shows.Trying to get 100% closure on the install is near impossible with some manufacturers, but the better ones that have superior milling techniques usually are in more demand and thus don't sit around in warehouses collecting unneeded moisture etc, etc, etc. The good products take about 4 weeks and more to get after an initial call to the distributor we deal with.Flooring is like any other product and you get what you pay for. When I first got into the business I worked strictly with one flooring shop as an installer. I didn't know any better being entirely new to hardwood flooring. Naturally I had a few years apprenticeship making very low wages after a career change.This was a partnership owned retailer. One had the bullshit mouth and the other an exceptional installer both the same age..grew up together as well. The mouth was called such a great salesman and finally I realized why. He was looking for the best deals that were sitting in warehouses. I see weekly faxes from distributors that want to unload 3000 SF of this and all the way down to 150 SF of this.As a neophite installer I didn't know the difference until I said enough as he couldn't pay on time. I learned a great lesson from this experience and began doing work for others and became enthusiastic finding a much better product to deal with. It was a night and day difference...gone were the bundles that nearly sprung apart when you cut the strapping. It all boils down to price IMO.Btw..I don't throw all that Maple in the dumpster. Makes great Xmas presents as cutting boards.
*ken... that's interesting because i've never seen 15#felt used...perhaps it has more to do with full basements and heating plants in the basements...if the NWFA wants 15# felt ... well that's what they'll get from me..got a link ?
*Ken,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*floorboards.com doesn't come up for me. is it just me?
*john .. try this link. floorboards
*
Two months ago, we purchased 2000 ft of 3-1/2" select and better
unfinished maple flooring. According to the dealer, it was milled in Canada, then held at a warehouse in Brockton, MA (I'm new to this forum; I'm not sure if I'm supposed to mention company names). Three weeks ago, it was delivered to our site and stacked in the appropriate rooms to acclimate. We're a few miles from the ocean and it does get humid in the summer.
Three days ago, we opened some bundles to start laying it down and immediately found discrepancies in the widths, resulting in gaps approximately 1/16 inch. We immediately stopped and had the dealer send a rep to the site. The rep claims that we held the flooring uninstalled for too long, which caused uneven moisture absorption and end swelling, more common in maple than oak. His explanation for the uneven swelling was that some pieces had only one end exposed in the bundle.
Although he claims it's not possible, I felt the problem was poor milling. Every source I've got says the more acclimation time the better. I borrowed a moisture meter, and tested the flooring at 6% to 8% and the 3/4" plywood subfloor at 14% to 16%. I've had a dehumidifier running in the basement for 2 weeks, trying to establish the recommended 4% max differential between the flooring and subfloor. I'm not sure it's going to happen.
The dealer is replacing the flooring next week and claims we should install it immediately, before it has a chance to absorb moisture and swell. He also claims that once the flooring is down, it will swell to close any small gaps. I intend to open some bundles immediately upon delivery to check the widths.
I'd welcome any comments to help me determine what I'm dealing with.
Thanks,
Jeff