I’m looking for a reliable way to cut stair treads on an open staircase. The stair tread will look like the picture below — that is, the tread will be cut to receive a return so that no end grain is showing.
I’ve thought of cutting the tread with a sliding miter saw, but it seems like I would have to then clean out the corner with a hand saw or jig saw. Is there a better way?
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Replies
Rout the miter as a radius, then round the end of the return with a template to match...
Stan Foster showed how in one of his many excellent learning type posts.
Sphere's talking about a swoop miter- I've seen it here, but haven't gotten the chance to try it yet. The two sides of the template are cut out of one piece of plexiglass or whatever your template is made out of- it's a straight line with a radiused curve from 0 to 45 degrees, so that a bearing guide router bit can follow it.
I typically cut the miter on stair treads with a circular saw and edge guide, all the treads at once. Then I cut the square cut with a scms, and finish with a handsaw.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Me too, except when I don't. Sometimes I use a tablesaw with the blade up high for the main cut which reduces how much I have to finish by hand. I have done them with a hand held circ saw for first cuts too.I use a slot bit on router to insert a spline and just glue at the miter end
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If using a table saw, couldn't you overcut the notch a bit (and therefore eliminate the need to hand saw)? The overcut portion would be on the underside and therefore not visible. Or are you worried about potentially weakening the tread?
Is there going to be a carpeted runner down the middle of the stairs?
If so L.J. Smith makes an open tread kit that comes with all that stuff done, plywood tread with a groove for the nosing with a tongue to slide into.
Matt
These are going to be full-width treads, Matt.
I know that pre-cut treads are also available. Unfortunately, with timing and a few other issues, we're stuck with doing it ourselves on this particular project.
You probably could and hide it with the scotia or whatever trimn detail you use, but I have an aversion to overcutting notches
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but I have an aversion to overcutting notches
Yeah, I kind of figured that based on some of your comments regarding cutting stair jacks. ;)
Thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions. If I come up with a somewhat novel aproach, I'll post it here.
I like the look of the stair treads that Stan Foster does with the radiused cut but not everybody does.
If you want the traditional look with the miter like your picture shows you can cut them with the circular saw or sliding compond saw. You have to finish the cut up with a hand saw and maybe pare a little away with a sharp chisel, really not all that difficult.
I like the idea of the table saw cut, build yourself a nice sled to hold the tread and make sure your blade is cranked up as high as possible to shorten the amount of back cut on the underside. You can build a sled to make both cuts with the table saw and completely eliminate the need for any other cuts.
Doug
I think Stan has a good idea with the router-cut treads. Unfortunately, I'm a pretty traditional guy when it comes to millwork, so I'm going to try to see if I can't figure out an alternate solution.
Between two 12" compound saws, a table saw, and a radial arm saw, I ought to be able to come up with something. ;)
"I like the look of the stair treads that Stan Foster does with the radiused cut but not everybody does."
If you are talking about those others as fellow stairbuilders, I can understand, but I would never consider working for a client with such discerning taste, that he or she would critique a detail so insignificant.
that he or she would critique a detail so insignificant.
Gene
I'm reading your response with a little ambiguity.
I dont think the detail is insignificant. Its deffinetly a modern/contemporary way to finish off the stair treads. I've build several stairs for traditional colonial houses and I'd never consider using that swooping style in those houses.
I like the detail and will use it but like all details I pick and chose what goes where.
I live for the customer that looks for/at those details.
Doug
Doug,
Do you have any words of wisdom regarding a glue type for the mitered returns?
Thanks in advance.
Ragnar
He says he wont be clamping but pinning is a form of clamping so in essence, he is clamping, I guess that's provided he is pinning!
I'm not a fan of using any poly glue that's going to potentially foam up and ruin my finish wood. We've been using yellow glue successfully for a long time and I don't think I'd change that. I think there are some that will disagree about using yellow glue and oak but I find that unfounded. Clean up well and sand the final product and the finish will be fine.
I will add that I don't use much Gorilla glue/poly so I don't know how well one can adequately control how much you apply thus controlling the amount of foam out/push you'd have in an application like this. Maybe that's something that if done a lot you have a good feel for the right amount to use, I like that on yellow glue that if I have some squeeze out its a good thing, but you don't know that with Gorilla right away.
Doug
Edited 6/28/2007 7:16 am ET by DougU
I'm like you on both the glue and the type of joint reply to Gene. I like a discriminating client vs the one who doesn't even notice some of the best work we do. I considered the swoop joint once and rejected it for that job, knowing that it would not fit the house - too modern for it.
Glad I did because the client did notice, complimented us, and referred for another job where classic details and respect for historical style was important.The Gorilla can work on this joint but you do have to be careful about not too much and then plan to sand after it cures. Curing takes longer with it than with TBII, so I prefer the titebond.
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Speaking of glues - I've been using Titebond III as it was highly reccomended for just about everything in a review I read last year. Is there any reason you like II compared to III for this type of work?Thanks,Julian
Mostly because I am slow to change. Always had good luck with TBII, and since this is interior and no waterproofness is needed...I have used some TBIII and it seems too plastic and hard to me, making me assume brittle which is not good for end grain. I could very well be wrong, but with only half a year experiencing it, that's where my thinking is now.OTOH, it is great for sealing end grain but joints in wood siding and exterior trim where we used to use paint on the fresh cuts before nailing it up. We are using it as much for sealer on those small spots as we are for glue.It may work fine for the mitre,but i'm just not there yet in my thinking.
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FWIW, I dislike rounded hinge mortises and would probably dislike the router answer to the stair tread question.
OTOH, there is absolutely no good reason for those prejudices....
(I don't like the micro-beveled edges on pre-finished flooring, either...)
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
Edited 6/24/2007 11:07 pm ET by rjw
I'm with you on all three counts.
Here's an interesting gang-cut approach I found at another site:
"Stack all the treads lining up the front edges perfectly and clamp them together. Using a straight edge and a circular saw set to 45% cut all the miters with the deck of the saw resting on the end of the treads (this works best if all the treads are stacked standing on end). Then finish the end cut with a sliding miter saw or circular saw with straight edge. Finish this cut with a hand saw."
Maybe that's a more clear way of saying it, but that's the same way I do it (post #3).zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Sorry, Zak. I didn't quite understand what you meant in your initial post.
Do you have any comments regarding your experience with that approach? Is it easier to lay the treads on their long edge, or stand them up in a "soldier row"?
They have to be set on their long edge, unless you like holding your saw up- I don't.
It works quite well. Of course, there is the possibility of tear out on the top and end of the cut, so if you're using a splinter prone wood, tape the line, or score before you cut.
I've also done stupid things like over cutting the straight cut, when the slide miter saw slid a bit too much. Make sure you cut the miter end before you cut to length.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I'm a swooper now...but, in the past I've used a lot of funky methods. Shooting board jigs with a circ saw for the long cut, jig saw for the miter work, but are tedious. The best, besides swooping is a SCMS. Make the long cut, then fit on a wide ply table with a bumped out fence for the miter...finish off with a jig saw.I also shape the return ends on a router table before I attach them. Then rout the edge profile. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Zak,
Well I tried the gang cut approach on the treads today -- it worked great! Thanks for the tip.
The only "problem" was that the tread depth was not very consistent; I put a straight edge across the noses and dinkered around until I got them all in a line. But besides that, it was a snap.
Next question (which I should have asked before): what glue do you like to use on the mitered returns? The species is red oak, and it will be receiving a medium stain.
I'm considering Gorilla Glue since I've been told it won't reject the stain (I'd typically use Titebond II or III). My only concern is that I won't be clamping, and the expansion/foaming action might push the return off the tread, even with several 2-1/2" nails. I've never used a poly glue before, so I might be overreacting.
Thanks again for the help.
Ragnar
Edited 6/28/2007 12:09 am ET by Ragnar17
I've had that issue with tread depth before, but they were treads that had been glued up locally- I thought premade tread stock would be more consistent. Oh well, you did the same thing I did.
I usually use gorilla glue for that sort of situation- I have this idea, possibly untrue, that it is a better glue for miters in general, since it's less likely to get absorbed by end grain. You might want to prefinish the treads with one coat before you glue up.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
You might want to prefinish the treads with one coat before you glue up.
Would that be to minimize the chance of a glue streak showing in the finish coat?
Yes.
But it makes life more difficult if the peices aren't both flat, and they need to be sanded down.
I'm no expert stairbuilder by any means, I've only done a couple. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I've had Gorilla Glue expand enough to push miters apart that were cross nailed.I usually knock the factory returns off of treads so I can rip a slight bevel on the back for a tighter fit to the riser: and so I can more easily readjust the length Most factory applied returns are yellow glued heavily at the miter, then lightly for the rest of the return, then two t-nails are the "clamps". Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
two t-nails are the "clamps".
Thanks for the help, Snort.
By "T-nails" are you referring to flooring nails (kind of looks like horseshoe nails)? I've got a number of them left over from when I rented a flooring nailer. Is it possible to just drive them with a regular hammer and nailset?
It's a tee headed nail mostly used in production. I have an old Hilti that shoots them. They hold really well, and when the head is oriented with the grain, it's kind of hard to spot.I also us regulare 15g 2" trim nails, just make sure the chisel point is oriented across the grain...doesn't have such a tendency to run out... don't ask me why I know that<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
just make sure the chisel point is oriented across the grain...doesn't have such a tendency to run out... don't ask me why I know that<G>
Thanks for the additional help, Snort.
Yeah, I eventually figured out that there was a strong axis to pneumatic nails myself. Only took a couple of years. ;)
tite bond makes a new glue that shows up on your wood under a black light. so you can be sure you got it all off before you stain.
Maybe it was said and I missed it, but even thought these are full size they are still available for purchase as such. I have done several complete stair projects using factory made treads that have the return already assembled. LJ Smith may have them, but check with your retailer.
The process is simple: measure or mark from the return to the skirt side and cut and install.
Don't get me wrong, I love being able to fabricate my own, but it is nice to know the easier versions are there!
Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
Hooker,
I wish I could have gotten these ones pre-cut. It's a long story. ;)