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L.Sider, with that name you should have no problem with this project, ha.
Anyhow, I had a point to make>>> I wouldn’t recommend using tar paper/felt for sheathing paper. There must be enough of you here that have torn into older homes with perpetually peeling paint and found felt under the clapboards. (roofing felt, felt, tar paper all the same product) Felt traps moisture behind the clapboards and raises hell over time. You will have rotting sheathing and framing with the added benefit of peeling paint. (up here in the northeast, at least)
Why not use rosin paper? (that red stuff) Put it up as you side and call it a day. You may find the labor to be less on a re-siding job, and you will save a couple of bucks.
Nails? I would only use stainless for cedar. I know the price will shock you, but it isn’t a very big difference to the total material cost and you won’t have any problems with bleeding.
I would recommend any high quality alkyd based primer for cedar. It would be best to prime the finish side after it is nailed up for maximum prevention of moisture absorption and tannin bleed (always caulk after priming, caulking is not a primer). Also if you are applying the smooth side out it is recommended that you sand the mill glaze off, or leave the siding to weather for a month.
The babble alert just went off, later.
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Mike, Isn't felt an effective vapor barrier? Where is it recommended to have a vapor barrier on both sides of a wall? Will felt not trap moisture on either side, against either the clapbrds or sheathing? Is felt not subject to condensation?
You are right about back-priming the clapbrds, but I just wouldn't look for trouble by using felt. In a perfect world all houses would be watertight and wood wouldn't move and homeowners would maintain their houses properly, oh well.
Rosin paper? I use it for patch jobs if that is what has been used. Mostly I use it to cover up finish floors. I am not up to date with the latest technology as to which housewrap is best so I didn't say, I just wanted to mention my objection towards felt.
You are also right that I was "incorrect...", I suffer brain cramps because my head is always up my butt. Hanging around here should help though, at least not hurt.
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sorry qtrmeg.. felt is not a vapor barrier..
it is a rain screen , though, which red rosin is not..
and the felt is not causing the paint peel problem..
*Waaaiiiitt a minute. I read an old thread that concluded that back-priming was the saviour of siding. Here I am seeing that it is the destroyer. Which is it? We are putting cedar on our house in the next week or so, and need to know.
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I don't know but in Upstate NY (-20, 3' snow, as much cloud as Seattle) we back-prime everything, including and especiallyt the meeting beveled edges. Cabot or BIN oil Primer breathes, but fills the pores with oil and pigment, reducing rots. If you don't prime, not only will water get behind the siding where it's cool, damp and delicious for molds, but wood that is sealed on one side only has tension created when one side takes up more water than the other. It tries to curl up like a soft-cover book in wet weather.
One point though--we primed old siding with BIN 1-hour. Good stuff, but because it was over older paint and dried too quickly, it separated from the siding in the first winter, taking two beautiful latex coats with it. Slow oil primers soak in better. Build a little well-ventilated station for you paints and miles of siding so you don't curse and try to avoid this critical step. If we could get out of it we would. We can't. Good luck.
Oh, for what to wrap the house in, Tyvek is incredible insulation-booster since it stops infiltration. just be careful where it goes b/c it's easy to cover places water is INSIDE and leaking OUT, like a leaky laundry room. Typar is black, which may hide better with siding, and tar-paper is under-rated. It seals well and will last 50 years, longer if you side it. If you mean the shingles won't stick to the Celotex, then can you use 1"+ siding nails (double-dipped ringshank), or much better, a pneumatic gun with long nails or staples. Staples won't split and can be long enough to get through, but I don't know how they weather or if they come in stainless. An awl or hole-reamer could start the holes if you nail and experience splitting.
*"Effective vapor barrier", Mike. Gosh, we are splitting hairs here. Are you going to tell me that felt is what you would recommend under clapbrds? Under bricks or masonry fine (to protect the sheathing), but I wouldn’t use it under wooden siding. I do wrap all corners and openings with it tho.I will admit that the worst problems were found on houses that;1. Were older homes with less than state of the art ventalation and moisture control 2. Had overgrown landscaping becoming one with the house3. Had felt and un-backprimed claps4. Could have had better maintenance (and better construction)I will also admit that I have seen extreme cases where water is just dripping off of the felt.What is hard here is what you say is true, but under adverse conditions homes without felt under the siding will fare far better. What is also hard is we have to pick our battles and this one doesn’t seem to be worth the fight, go with Typar and factory-primed clapbrds and make sure your flashing works. Man, I bet there isn’t a house I work on that doesn’t have flashing problems.Don’t you love the calls that go something like “I have tarred it and tried everything…”? Too funny. Ps. I should also mention that I may be wrong, gosh I hate it when that happens.Pps. Man, you guys have a lot of traffic here, 2 replys while I figured out this stupid response. Oh ya, backprime, but it is best to have a real coat of paint on and for it to be dry, that is why I like the factory primed siding.
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hey qtrmeg.. it's hard to get into this.. suffice to say that you're wrong man..
read the JLC article for enlightement
back prime and end prime...
b but hey , whadda i no ?
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Point me to it and I'll read it Mike, I have been wrong before, no big deal. If I am I would appreciate the link.
So I guess the deal is for L. Sider to use felt, cool. I would like to talk to him after 30 years of real life and see how it worked out.
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qtrmeg... naturally , it's the one issue i can't put my hands on.. so that would make it September.. and the article is featured on the cover..
there is also a lot of discussion on this in the archives here..
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Well thanks Mike, you got me to looking around and opening my eyes a little bit. I was wrong about the technical properties of felt, but I still won't use it as a building wrap.
You are also right that felt isn't a cause of peeling paint, but I really have to fight you if you believe it doesn't add to the problem. There is no doubt that the peeling is caused by moisture, and we have no argument about the importance of preventing that.
FYI>>> I have found that the perm rating of felt is between 1-5, depending on its state of water saturation, with 1 being a satisfactory vapor barrier.
I am not really in love with felts ability to saturate and hold moisture, but it has been stated that this is in fact its advantage over products like Typar, because if water does find its way behind Typar it is trapped and remains in the wall cavity. I find this advantage to be a disadvantage. I do not want a building wrap that can hold moisture under the siding. I think everyone can agree that the purpose of a drainage plane is to drain moisture, not hold it. If you have built out an airspace behind the siding great, but that is not a detail I can say I have seen very often. I want you to visualize what felt looks like after time, it invariably takes the shape of the siding which not only is detrimental to the concept of drainage but promotes absorption and holds whatever moisture that has found its way there right against the siding. Typar and the like remain flat to the sheathing and will readily shed any moisture.
So I am sure this will just be one of those never-ending debates, but I think we have far more to agree on than disagree. I will stick with the plastic wraps for now, or until someone can get through to this thick head of mine. Anyhow, thanks again for the mental workout Mike.
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I am a interior remodler. I am residing my own house.(with cedar) What do you all recommend to wrap the house with before I apply the new siding. The sheathing is the old celotex sheathing. ( I aint gonna pull all of that off cause its stapled on with a jillion staples.)(MESSY too)
*pick a housewrap. i use tyvek- provide a rain gap-that's a space between the siding and the housewrap- hell go to the materials forum below breaktime- it's all there- come back if you don't understand something...
*Or tarpaper for those of us that think tyvek is over-rated. It's your house, let us know what works.....or didn't! Jeff
*Do some research on cedar and tyvek: it seems to me that not too long ago there were reports that non-back-primed cedar and tyvek interact to break down the tyvek (with caveats that cedar was the only wood tested and that others might have the same effect.)Bob
*larry... what does residing with cedar mean... red cedar shingles ? white cedar shingles ?red cedar claoboards?the celotex is not a nailbase.. what is the stud space , 16 or 24 ?working by yourself ? use tar paper .. working with a helper and using a rain screen.. use tyvek or tar paper...clapboards ? probably the rain screen with vertical nailer strips and blocking so you've got end nailing ..back prime and end prime (my house would be fiber cement clapboards, like hardie or Certainteed's Durapress)shingles ? you need a nailbase... leave the celotex.. pull your casings. overlay with plywood or osb, then your 15# felt (we like Roofers Select), then your shingles..b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Read and heed Mr. Mike's advice...he's right on in my book. Even though my book is a coloring book and I can't stay inside the lines...but that's another story...Here's a past post with a bit about rainscreens, backpriming, and wraps.Do it right, and you'll do it once...
*I will be using cedar clapboard (western red cedar). I (wife) will prime front & back & paint after installed.Studs are 16" OC. I will seal ends with hibond II when I install it. Sounds like I will use tar paper. 15# or 30#??? I have thought about using SS steel nails in my finish air nailer to place the boards on at the ends. Then hand drive SS #8d siding nails to finish the nailing.
*dear mrs. (?) larry..try to get CVG cedar for your claps.. (sometimes CAHVG..Clear, AllHeart, Vertical Grain)....one of the things that is often done wrong with cedar clapboard is the nail is fastened thru the butt in an attempt to close the lap up tight..this is wrong...the nail should go thru the clapboard JUST high enough so it passes over the top of clapboard beneath..then the clapboard can expand and contract without splitting..don't use a finish nailer... ther isn't enough of a head.. the weather will have the clapboard loose in no time..if you want to use a gun nail, you have to have an adjustable gun that can adjust the set of the nail just right...we use a bostich c80 for this with a SS, 5d box nail..but if you are hand nailing.. there are some nice SS siding nails with a small head (but bigger than a finish nail).. you have to practise and drive them just flush and be careful not to split the clap... since you will be nailing into air space (over the top of the clap below, remember ?)on laps,, we cut them all in the same direction with a 45 bevel... when they are lapped they look like the joint is off plumb, which it is because of the bevel of the board.. we end prime.. and drive one nail thru the top piece and into the bottom piece and then into the stud.. run your bevels away from the line of sight if you want to get fancy... so you don't look into the joint.. you look over it (the Hollywood side)..you still need the blocking though so you have something to nail into when you go up agianst windows, doors, and corners..hey larry ... talk to me about Crinigan's bar and the saturday night fights...in Ivesdale..i'm still trying to put some family history together...
*Smitty! You sound like you would fit in real good in Dodge City (Ivesdale)....... Only tavern in the county that is open on Sunday. When I was a State Trooper I was tempted to burn it down! I probably could have gotten help too. Except Trooper Danny Bates who lives in Ivesdale would have had to drink beer somewhere else. That would have been a cruel thing to do to Danny..
*Eek, a STATE TROOPER?? I thought you were an ex-cop. You weren't one of those those guys with the crew cut and the "what we have heeeere ... is failure to communicate" attitudes, were you? (grins)Old joke ... a friend of a friend was pulled over by a state trooper, doing about 85. The trooper told her, "Honey, no one drives that fast in Georgia." She quipped back, "Sherman did." And spent the night in jail.
*Andy! Ya got me all wrong! (Actually I never took myself serious enough) (Hummmm,.. Maybe thats why I never made sergent) I did however put on a police face in order not to be gamed over by the knuckel-heads.. Then I burned out at 40, Started my woodworking & carpenter bizness.. Retired at 51 & now I am burned out again (I'm 60 now) I finished 2 projects lately & Momma told me I have to work on the house or she will divorce me..(Or did she say 'get the house fixed up so she can divorce me')
*JLC just did a 5 page scientific study of housewraps and determined that ......Are you ready for this .......There is no appreciable difference between tar paper and Tyvik.You Tyvik fans, read it and weep!
*Scooter, I have thought that all along.... I am gonna use tar paper. (I do try to keep an open mind though)(or is it that I am just cheap?)
*Mike - You are so right on the clear all-heart VG, the next grade down (A & better) doesn't compare. If you do have to drop down in grade, make sure it's still 'A' (kiln dried). Also with cedar (didn't see on the archive link) it is important to lightly sand the mill glaze off before priming. My favorite painter around here likes a product called 'Storm Plate 90' for primer over A100. Mostly butt joints around here, not lapped.Jeff
*15# or 30#?
*Jeff...Please tell us whati 'Storm Plate 90' is if you can find out the actual product and manufacturer...Thanksnear the stream, presently using SW Alkyd primeraj
*You're 60 and you still live with your momma ? Get a life.Waitaminnit.... divorce ????!!? You are married to your momma ????!? Now that's just SICK !!!!b : )
*It's Finneran & Haley 'Stormplate 30' - sorry I didn't have the number right.Jeff
*Wow...What a search...spelling counts...thanks for info Jeffhttp://fhpaint.comnearer to the stream,aj
*Siders, I haven't priced out Tyvek vs Tar Paper in a while. But I gather from your post that tar paper is cheaper. My only comment to support Tyvek is it's ease of install. That tall roll of Tyvek can cover a wall pretty quickly in one pass and is much lighter than tar paper. Plus it is a heck of alot cleaner.Martin
*Just remember with Tyvek to put the ladder on the "suction" setting before climbing up.
*15# or 30#??
*if it's the real thing... 15 # is fine...we use a lot of Certainteed's Roofers Select....feels like 15, strong like 30... lays flat again after it drys out (if it gets wet from dew or rain)only caveat... it has fiberglass fibers in it for strength... and they itch....
*Mike, RSelect is nice...worthwhile for roofs, but do you use it on walls as well?
* Yep. This here's a thread about residing. Ain't you been listening?? :)RS will go on my addition's walls. Night and day versus the other stuff that I seem to tear compulsively.
*... yes , we use it for everything... i only have so much space.. so to reduce inventory, we buy only roofers select.. then no one has to guess if they're picking up an open roll of rs.. or reg. 15#..same thing with nails.. haven't bought a bright nail in the last 15 years...nothing but HDG or SS or Alum. , Bronze or Cu .. no one picks up and uses the wrong one if it ain't on the job.nothing like a $30K siding job with a couple rust stains at eye level......
*L.Sider, with that name you should have no problem with this project, ha.Anyhow, I had a point to make>>> I wouldn't recommend using tar paper/felt for sheathing paper. There must be enough of you here that have torn into older homes with perpetually peeling paint and found felt under the clapboards. (roofing felt, felt, tar paper all the same product) Felt traps moisture behind the clapboards and raises hell over time. You will have rotting sheathing and framing with the added benefit of peeling paint. (up here in the northeast, at least)Why not use rosin paper? (that red stuff) Put it up as you side and call it a day. You may find the labor to be less on a re-siding job, and you will save a couple of bucks.Nails? I would only use stainless for cedar. I know the price will shock you, but it isn't a very big difference to the total material cost and you won't have any problems with bleeding.I would recommend any high quality alkyd based primer for cedar. It would be best to prime the finish side after it is nailed up for maximum prevention of moisture absorption and tannin bleed (always caulk after priming, caulking is not a primer). Also if you are applying the smooth side out it is recommended that you sand the mill glaze off, or leave the siding to weather for a month.The babble alert just went off, later.
*qtrmeg...you are describing a symptom and incorrectly assigning the cause..((There must be enough of you here that have torn into older homes with perpetually peeling paint and found felt under the clapboards. (roofing felt, felt, tar paper all the same product) Felt traps moisture behind the clapboards and raises hell over time. You will have rotting sheathing and framing with the added benefit of peeling paint. (up here in the northeast, at least) )))))The red rosin paper is not a rain screen...and the 15# felt did not cause the peeling paint..you don't backprime your clapboard... that has more to do with the peeling paint than anything else..moisture moving from back to front is what is peeling the paint...keep te moisture out of the clapboard .. and control the source of the moisture..b but hey, whaddda i no ?
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you're welcome... enjoy JLC.. they're a great source, like FHB and this board..